One of my primary worryies is Balance in multi-player at this point.

Games Other Halo
#1

I am worried because of the size of the sandbox, combined with the upgrades for weapons and multiple weapons foe filling the same role, this many variables is going to make balance that much harder.

If this game is in fact a “Halo” game I will be happy, I think some of the additions are simply the natural progression of the modern shooter, sprint being the best one so far, and I hope that it benefits Halo, but I would be lying if I said that “Random” weapon spawns, instant spawn, weapon customization, and the fact that it looks like they are shoving every weapon they possibly can into the game and then adding more doesn’t worry me.

Halo Reach added AA’s, say what you want, I like them, but when the game first came out it was clear that these were not well balanced for many of the maps and gametypes they were used in, this shows how hard balance is when you add so many variables.

I also hope that 343 will be quick to patch mistakes when the game is released, I will bet there will be issues, and I hope that they are ready and able to fix them.

It is good 343 is mixing things up I just wonder if they are biting off more than they can chew.

#2

If in the previous Halos the BR/DMR/M6D are the only weapons a player should be using if they’re aren’t using a powerweapon, what balance ever existed in the first place?

If non-powerweapons are nearly perfectly balanced with each other, why bother having them as pickups if all they do is offer an alternative?

If you can choose whichever balanced non-powerweapon(s) to start with and only ever toss away a weapon due to a lack of ammo or because you’ve found a powerweapon, how will combat suffer if the non-powerweapons on the map already allow for non-symmetrical battles?

#3

> If in the previous Halos the BR/DMR/M6D are the only weapons a player should be using if they’re aren’t using a powerweapon, what balance ever existed in the first place?
>
> If non-powerweapons are nearly perfectly balanced with each other, why bother having them as pickups if all they do is offer an alternative?
>
> If you can choose whichever balanced non-powerweapon(s) to start with and only ever toss away a weapon due to a lack of ammo or because you’ve found a powerweapon, how will combat suffer if the non-powerweapons on the map already allow for non-symmetrical battles?

I really don’t understand what you are saying…

#4

> > If in the previous Halos the BR/DMR/M6D are the only weapons a player should be using if they’re aren’t using a powerweapon, what balance ever existed in the first place?
> >
> > If non-powerweapons are nearly perfectly balanced with each other, why bother having them as pickups if all they do is offer an alternative?
> >
> > If you can choose whichever balanced non-powerweapon(s) to start with and only ever toss away a weapon due to a lack of ammo or because you’ve found a powerweapon, how will combat suffer if the non-powerweapons on the map already allow for non-symmetrical battles?
>
> I really don’t understand what you are saying…

That’s because I asked a few questions and didn’t state much.
This is the part where you answer the questions.

#5

In Halo 3 the AR killed quickly, it usually beat the BR at close range, now that is a simple enough thing, now imagine if we threw in a Carbine, pistol, and a DMR, into the BR’s role, then we added two of three different assault rifle equivalents, then on top of that you can modify your weapon to be even more powerful, now how do you fine tune a balance when you have all of that? Yes at the MLG level the BR was the only weapon used but for the average player they would use their AR to kill enemies when they were close, and if those guys were carrying a longer range weapon they would usually lose.

Why pick the DMR over the BR? Why pick the Carbine over the BR? Why use a pistol if you can choose loadouts? These are the issues, in a Game like Battlefield weapon balance is much different, kill times are faster, weapon spread, and recoil are a huge factor in Halo they are not as large of a factor, you are often in one on one fights, have much more health and the weapons are steady to shot with, how do you differ them then without making one better than the other?

#6

You never answered my questions.

> In Halo 3 the AR killed quickly, it usually beat the BR at close range, now that is a simple enough thing, now imagine if we threw in a Carbine, pistol, and a DMR, into the BR’s role, then we added two of three different assault rifle equivalents, then on top of that you can modify your weapon to be even more powerful, now how do you fine tune a balance when you have all of that?

  1. You can’t modify your weapons, that was said long ago that that was never in the design.
    2)Usually beat the BR at close range means the AR gets beat by the BR in almost any circumstance when both players are of equal skill.
    Now imagine if the player had an AR or SMGs or SMG+PR or any dual+any dual… What kind of question is “imagine a bunch of possibilities” when that’s been in Halo since 2?
  2. How do we fine tune that stuff??? 343i is told us how they’re balancing the weapons in the last update. Is it that H3’s sandbox is so imbalanced that you’re wondering?

> Why pick the DMR over the BR? Why pick the Carbine over the BR? Why use a pistol if you can choose loadouts? These are the issues, in a Game like Battlefield weapon balance is much different, kill times are faster, weapon spread, and recoil are a huge factor in Halo they are not as large of a factor, you are often in one on one fights, have much more health and the weapons are steady to shot with, how do you differ them then without making one better than the other?

See 3 above.
Though again I ask, if the M6/BR/DMR are the only non-power weapons you should be using in the first place (as the opinion is of high level/pro players), what does it matter that of all the options players have, the game is once again reduced to 1 precision non-powerweapon and powerweapons?

#7

> You never answered my questions.
>
>
>
> > In Halo 3 the AR killed quickly, it usually beat the BR at close range, now that is a simple enough thing, now imagine if we threw in a Carbine, pistol, and a DMR, into the BR’s role, then we added two of three different assault rifle equivalents, then on top of that you can modify your weapon to be even more powerful, now how do you fine tune a balance when you have all of that?
>
> 1) You can’t modify your weapons, that was said long ago that that was never in the design.
> 2)Usually beat the BR at close range means the AR gets beat by the BR in almost any circumstance when both players are of equal skill.
> Now imagine if the player had an AR or SMGs or SMG+PR or any dual+any dual… What kind of question is “imagine a bunch of possibilities” when that’s been in Halo since 2?
> 3) How do we fine tune that stuff??? 343i is told us how they’re balancing the weapons in the last update. Is it that H3’s sandbox is so imbalanced that you’re wondering?
>
>
>
> > Why pick the DMR over the BR? Why pick the Carbine over the BR? Why use a pistol if you can choose loadouts? These are the issues, in a Game like Battlefield weapon balance is much different, kill times are faster, weapon spread, and recoil are a huge factor in Halo they are not as large of a factor, you are often in one on one fights, have much more health and the weapons are steady to shot with, how do you differ them then without making one better than the other?
>
> See 3 above.
> Though again I ask, if the M6/BR/DMR are the only non-power weapons you should be using in the first place (as the opinion is of high level/pro players), what does it matter that of all the options players have, the game is once again reduced to 1 precision non-powerweapon and powerweapons?

If you can choose your load outs then you can simply take the best of the weopon and ignore the rest, the AR in Halo 3 served a purpose and the BR, and pistol as powerful as they were in Halo 1, 2, and 3 were still beaten at close range by close range alternatives that were not power weapons, Halo Reach had two BR equivalent, and the pistol, which was the smaller version of the two, you would drop your pistol for the DMR, or just keep it s a side arm, but the Needle rifle was balanced with the DMR as it was simply a form of preference, now, what if there were four or five weapons in that role, then what if you could choose to spawn with them? I for one don’t think that simply being told to choose the best one is a good way of balancing the game, Halo has always had throw away weapons, but the more you add the higher the chance that you are simply creating more throw away weapons, that is one of the worst aspect of Call of Duty, one weopon is the best at basicly any range, Halo does not need to follow the road, especially if you can choose to spawn with it.

BR Close range okay, mid range good, long rang okay
AR Close range good, Mid range okay, long range poor
DMR Close range okay, mid range good, long range okay
Pistol Close range okay, mid rage, okay long, range okay

This is proper balance, the weapon is the best over all because it foe fills the most roles, not because it is better at all of them. One of the worst things about Reach, as much as I love it is that the AR often feels too weak, it can beat out the DMR in close range, but only if the guy using it misses a head shot.

#8

> If in the previous Halos the BR/DMR/M6D are the only weapons a player should be using if they’re aren’t using a powerweapon, what balance ever existed in the first place?
>
> If non-powerweapons are nearly perfectly balanced with each other, why bother having them as pickups if all they do is offer an alternative?
>
> If you can choose whichever balanced non-powerweapon(s) to start with and only ever toss away a weapon due to a lack of ammo or because you’ve found a powerweapon, how will combat suffer if the non-powerweapons on the map already allow for non-symmetrical battles?

None. So if it was so hard to balance that few if sandbox items, imagine balancing this many.

If they are perfectly balanced, they don’t need to be pickups, you are correct.

However, the problem with balancing the AR and BR is they have to make each one require the same amount of skill to use. If the AR in Halo 3 could kill as effectively as the BR, but without using the same amount of skill that the BR took, gameplay would suffer. Everyone would use the AR because it would be stupid not to, and you have a less skill based outcome to games.

As much as people knock on the “hardcore skilled game point of view” what in God’s name would be the point of a multiplayer game where skill is not emphasized. Everyone likes to out perform other players. There is satisfaction to that.

If they do decide to go this route, you will end up with 10 “utility” weapons, so why not just have on in the first place?

#9

> > If in the previous Halos the BR/DMR/M6D are the only weapons a player should be using if they’re aren’t using a powerweapon, what balance ever existed in the first place?
> >
> > If non-powerweapons are nearly perfectly balanced with each other, why bother having them as pickups if all they do is offer an alternative?
> >
> > If you can choose whichever balanced non-powerweapon(s) to start with and only ever toss away a weapon due to a lack of ammo or because you’ve found a powerweapon, how will combat suffer if the non-powerweapons on the map already allow for non-symmetrical battles?
>
> None. So if it was so hard to balance that few if sandbox items, imagine balancing this many.
>
> If they are perfectly balanced, they don’t need to be pickups, you are correct.
>
> However, the problem with balancing the AR and BR is they have to make each one require the same amount of skill to use. If the AR in Halo 3 could kill as effectively as the BR, but without using the same amount of skill that the BR took, gameplay would suffer. Everyone would use the AR because it would be stupid not to, and you have a less skill based outcome to games.
>
> As much as people knock on the “hardcore skilled game point of view” what in God’s name would be the point of a multiplayer game where skill is not emphasized. Everyone likes to out perform other players. There is satisfaction to that.
>
> If they do decide to go this route, you will end up with 10 “utility” weapons, so why not just have on in the first place?

This is what happened with the Famas in Battlefield 3 pre patch, it as the best weapon, so all of the people who just wanted to use an easy gun flocked to it, even though it was broken.

While the good players like me, did not use it, and still managed a 3.0 K/D. :smiley:

Halo does not need a similar thing to happen to it.

#10

> If you can choose your load outs then you can simply take the best of the weopon and ignore the rest,

Is that the problem now when choosing between the DMR and NR?
I suppose it is a problem if you have to choose DMR, NR, AR or PRi in Reach, but what if you also go to choose your secondary between the pistols?
What would happen if we could choose AR/DMR/NR/PRi and PP/M6?

> the AR in Halo 3 served a purpose and the BR, and pistol as powerful as they were in Halo 1, 2, and 3 were still beaten at close range by close range alternatives that were not power weapons,

The Pistols were crap in H2 and H3. Either too weak or too inaccurate+slow and lost 25% of their power when dualed.
The CE-M6 was not “beaten” at close range by the AR, only the melee. If it was shooting only, the M6 killed long before the AR could.

> Halo Reach had two BR equivalent,

Not in Vanilla Reach, Vanilla Reach has only the NR as the BR equivalent. The DMR was too unreliable to be a BR equivalent when used in less than long range.

> and the pistol, which was the smaller version of the two,

Less ammo, less rest precision and a quicker and wider bloom is not a smaller version of a weapon.
The Reach Pistol is a backup precision weapon capable of being used to hunt but quickly looses effectiveness before short meets mid range.

> you would drop you pistol for the DMR as a spawn weapon, but the Needle rifle was balanced with the DMR as it was simply a form of preference

No I would drop the AR and keep the Magnum.

> , now, what id there was four or five weapons in that role, then what if you could choose to spawn with them?

Since I can carry 2 weapons at once, I’d choose the DMR with Pistol, you?

> I for one don’t think that simply being told to choose the best one is a good why of balancing the game,

But that’s how it’s always been. Especially in Halo. If you want to compete at higher levels in Halo, your M6/BR/DMR skills must be exquisite as any other non-power weapon isn’t going to cut it against those high level players.

> Halo has always had throw away weapons, but the more you add the higher the chance that you are simply creating more throw away weapons,

And now weapons aren’t throwaways. That is the part you seem to be misinterpreting.
Your spawning weapons of choice is your weapons of choice till you can find a powerweapon.
If you don’t have your weapon of choice yet, the one you do have is going to be designed to be balanced so that it’s useable till you get the one you do want. The difference between having to spawn with weapons you already throw away and weapons you won’t throw away is negligible. If you prefer MLG-type settings, then you already choose the best utility weapon, remove all the fluff and leave the powerweapons you prefer.
So this doesn’t change Halo at all.

> that is one of the worst aspect of Call of Duty, one weopon is the best at basicly any range, Halo does not need to follow the road, especially if you can choose to spawn with it.

The CE-M6/BR/DMR are examples of how Halo already follows this trend, if not SET the trend.

> BR Close range okay, mid range good, long rang okay
> AR Close range good, Mid range okay, long range poor
> DMR Close range okay, mid range good, long range okay
> Pistol Close range okay, mid rage, okay long, range okay
>
> This is proper balance,

Ok… And you know Halo4 doesn’t resemble this because?

> the weapon is the best over all because it foe fills the most roles, not because it is better at all of them.

That is why the CE-M6/BR/DMR are called the Halo-Utilities Weapons, overused and often overpowered.