On the Casual vs Competitive conflict

Games Other Halo
1

First off I’ll introduce myself and where my opinions stand on this matter: Im Sam, I live in England and the first Halo game I picked up was Halo 2 in 2006. Since that purchase I have filtered between both sides of the community to finally come to a rest near the end of Reach on the competitive side.

Now;

There is an ongoing debate between comps and casuals over different additions and removals in Halo 4. Each side is prone to calling the other out for causing population declines. I’m posting this to show this community (predominantly casual) that the argument is almost entirely pointless!

Both of the communities have lost massive amounts of players since Halo 4’s release, obviously both sides have got something wrong!

This is how I see it:
-Casuals
Strong understanding of story/customs/cosplaying/fanart

-Competitives
Strong understanding of balanced gameplay/arena/matchmaking mechanics

A competitive will never call you out on issues about story because, most of the time, they don’t know enough about it. Something I see casuals do a lot is call out Competitives on what they know best.

There’s always a mid-point as well, don’t forget that

Cheers!

2

No one side is ruining anything. Both groups tend to be at fault in one way or another, and there are definitely annoying people on both sides of the spectrum that the other has to deal with.

In reality, the only ones “Ruining” anything are the developers, as they are the only ones with any real control over the game. The community can say what it wants, but it’s up to the developers to make any changes. That’s not to say the dev’s “ruined” anything, or that we should hate them for anything, simply that they hold control over what happens and what the game becomes.

Anyway, I can’t say I’m a fan of the “Competitive VS Casual” debates. Seems to be making an unnecessary divide in the community and acting like they’re actually “Against” eachother. I think we all want the same thing, and that’s a Halo game that’s fun for everyone. Not one group or the other, but everyone involved.

But that’s just my $0.02

3

> No one side is ruining anything. Both groups tend to be at fault in one way or another, and there are definitely annoying people on both sides of the spectrum that the other has to deal with.
>
> In reality, the only ones “Ruining” anything are the developers, as they are the only ones with any real control over the game. The community can say what it wants, but it’s up to the developers to make any changes. That’s not to say the dev’s “ruined” anything, or that we should hate them for anything, simply that they hold control over what happens and what the game becomes.
>
> Anyway, I can’t say I’m a fan of the “Competitive VS Casual” debates. Seems to be making an unnecessary divide in the community and acting like they’re actually “Against” eachother. I think we all want the same thing, and that’s a Halo game that’s fun for everyone. Not one group or the other, but everyone involved.
>
> But that’s just my $0.02

You’ve nailed it.

4

343i’s biggest mistake wasn’t Infinity Slayer; it was not having any alternatives to it in MM at launch. In all previous Halo games, there were competitive playlists such as MLG and Team Slayer, and social/casual/noncompetitive playlists. For the first few months, every gametype in Halo 4 MM had Infinity injected into it. Players like me who want simple skillful gameplay instead of gimmicky gameplay had nowhere to go, so they left.

Competitive players dislike that Halo 4 is really lacking in competitive gametypes (and population, since most of the competitive players have already left). This is a legitimate complaint–of course if a game plays differently than its predecessors, the fans of the predecessors are going to complain about it.

The casual players dislike the competitive players’ opinions, and instead of seeing the merit in their complaints, just tell them they’re “outdated,” “stuck in the past,” and “just want Halo 3.”

There are also those who are competitive yet enjoy Infinity, but these are a very small minority in my experience.

Thus, everyone fights over a game as if it’s their game, even though the tradition has always been to support both competitive and casual equally, as the Halo community is one of the most diverse gaming communities in existence.

When you look at it this way, you see that it’s not the community’s fault that the community is divided; it’s 343i’s. This whole problem could have been avoided if “classic” gametypes were more support at (or at least around) launch. This is one of the “mistakes” that I’m hoping 343i was referring to when they admitted they did make some in Halo 4, and so I’m hopeful that Halo Xbox One will be better.

5

If they made a clear divide between ranked and social, everyone can play what they are in the mood for. Hopefully they take notice of this for H5. Perhaps something similar to infinity settings in the social side and a more traditional (though not necessarily copy and paste from H3) for the ranked half. Then perhaps everyone will be happy.

*edit: Nobody in the community is responsible for “ruining Halo”. None of the groups within the Halo community have that sort of power.

6

Imo even the term casual and competitive adds to the divide in the community. I have played this game just about every day since January. However because I can’t say that I’ve played non stop since ce, I assume that makes me a casual.
I play mainly at night, between 6pm and 8 pm. Australia east coast time. Up until a few months ago, before the changes started. The population of btis was between 2000 and 3000. Lately the population drops down to about 1300, and about 650 in 4x4 slayer.
The people that I knew who still played have gone to bf3, as they can no longer be bothered playing the butchered mess that btis has become. Infinity slayer should have been left alone, and a separate playlist made for the traditional halo players. The argument was that the population was too low to support two playlists, well look at it now.
Players who preferred and supported btis have been shafted. Yes the traditional players might be happier with the changes, but at the expense of the infinity fans who supported h4 by continuing to play. So much for loyalty.

7

I want Halo to have a casual base.
I want Halo to have playlists which cater to casual players.
I want casual players to enjoy Halo as much as I do.
I want there to be a bunch of randomness and low order optimal strategies for casuals to use, in their own playlists.

That being said, I’d also like casual players to quit acting like they know anything about competitive gameplay.

If your KD is less than 1, you clearly don’t understand how the game works, and shouldn’t act like you do, PERIOD. It is basically like the kid in class with a D grade, telling the teacher about how the teacher doesn’t know what they’re talking about. All you’re doing is showcasing your ignorance, -Yoink!- off the players who know what they’re talking about, and teaching the newer players who want to learn bad habits which they’ll have to work even harder to overcome.

If you don’t know what you’re talking about, don’t give your opinion on something. OPINIONS SHOULD BE THE RESULT OF THOUGHT, NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR IT.
A very simple concept which is lost amongst many people.

I’m not a Halo lore type person, so you know what? I don’t go into threads and contradict people when they’re talking about lore, because I clearly wouldn’t know what I was talking about, and it would be a disservice to the community if I went around spreading wrong information.

If casuals would have the good grace to return that common courtesy, there wouldn’t be so much fighting between the two sides.

8

> If your KD is less than 1, you clearly don’t understand how the game works

Of course, because KD = understanding of game… sorry, but you could have a 0.2 KD and be one heck of an objective man, or a driver… ya know, KD doesnt equal skill, a good KD is a sign of good skill, but not the be all and end all…

9

> I want Halo to have a casual base.
> I want Halo to have playlists which cater to casual players.
> I want casual players to enjoy Halo as much as I do.
> I want there to be a bunch of randomness and low order optimal strategies for casuals to use, in their own playlists.
>
> That being said, I’d also like casual players to quit acting like they know anything about competitive gameplay.
>
> If your KD is less than 1, you clearly don’t understand how the game works, and shouldn’t act like you do, PERIOD. It is basically like the kid in class with a D grade, telling the teacher about how the teacher doesn’t know what they’re talking about. All you’re doing is showcasing your ignorance, -Yoink!- off the players who know what they’re talking about, and teaching the newer players who want to learn bad habits which they’ll have to work even harder to overcome.
>
> If you don’t know what you’re talking about, don’t give your opinion on something. OPINIONS SHOULD BE THE RESULT OF THOUGHT, NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR IT.
> A very simple concept which is lost amongst many people.
>
> I’m not a Halo lore type person, so you know what? I don’t go into threads and contradict people when they’re talking about lore, because I clearly wouldn’t know what I was talking about, and it would be a disservice to the community if I went around spreading wrong information.
>
> If casuals would have the good grace to return that common courtesy, there wouldn’t be so much fighting between the two sides.

Not sure if you are talking to me, as my kd isn’t below 1, however even if it was, so what? The value of an opinion is not based on kd. And halo lore? lol, you have got to be kidding me, what sort of garbage is that.
I play competitive sport in the real World, so I understand teamwork. You make the halo competitive scene sound like a secret old boys society, get over yourself.

10

343I

Make a ranked playlist for good players that wants to play competitive and rank up.
Make a social playlist for people just to enjoy the game and have fun.

And please make a playlist for the beginners. Its very hard for them when they have to play against good players in the first 3-4 games. They dont learn how to play the game when they get destroyed.

And make a playlist only for really good players where not everybody can get in, you have to be good to go in there. Im sick of losing games because I get matched with really… lets call it inexperienced players.

Look at this game for example. Then you may know what I am talking about.

https://app.halowaypoint.com/de-de/Halo4/starklambo/home/match-8eaee4e13d6faac8

11

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t throwdown for the really good players?

12

> Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t throwdown for the really good players?

Its not wrong what you say, but the problem is that…

  1. When I play it by myself, I still get two afk people or other really “inexperienced players” in my team, which never shoul be possible in a playlist like that.
  2. When I play with my team we get destroyed by Throwdown CSR 50.
  3. The population is so low that you never find players on your level.
  4. I hate to play without radar, thats the biggest problem I have with Throwdown. I play Halo with radar since Halo 3 and it plays completly different without it. I always get shot from behind and that makes me throw my controller into my TV :wink:

Throwdown is for the really good players / pros thats right, but a player that puts in his Halo 4 disc for the first time can search in Throwdown, I think thats not good.

13

This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not create alternate accounts to bypass forum bans. Alternate accounts will be permanently banned, and offending users will be subject to both temporary and permanent bans.

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

343 ruined Halo. No one should ever take the casuals opinions seriously.

14

> I want Halo to have a casual base.
> I want Halo to have playlists which cater to casual players.
> I want casual players to enjoy Halo as much as I do.
> I want there to be a bunch of randomness and low order optimal strategies for casuals to use, in their own playlists.
>
> That being said, I’d also like casual players to quit acting like they know anything about competitive gameplay.
>
> If your KD is less than 1…

Stopped reading there.

PLLLEEAAAASE don’t bring up the k/d argument. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out what competitive halo is, nor does it take someone who knows what competitive halo is to hide in a corner and have a good shot.

This is the exact kind of argument that causes a split, and it isn’t helping anything.

I travel in competitive circles. I sing a competitive tune. My K/D sucks, but I challenge you to read my post history and tel me I don’t have an understanding of competitive Halo.

A whole team of pros can go negative in an objective match, and still pull out a victory.

If players were perfectly evenly matched down to the last brain cell, both their K/Ds would be ZERO. And don’t pretend to tell me Halo 4 has skill based matchmaking, because I’ve seen CSR 1s match 45s and that never happens in H3 even the the population is less.

I consistently and purposefully play with players who are better than me, because we enjoy similar gametypes (not infinity). Does that mean I’m not knowledgable if I lose? No. Don’t be silly.

And please don’t say some crap about “oh well your an exception to the rule.” Just drop the subject. It’s silly. It pisses people off. And it’s wrong.

I know forgers who could go on for days about competitive Halo map design. The know their stuff. Knowing your stuff does not always correlate to being a good player.

Pro’s during reach campaigned to keep bloom on the DMR! did they have good K/Ds? Yes. Do they know all the intricacies of what makes a competitive utility weapon? NOOO.

K/D doesn’t equal skill which also doesn’t equal knowledge.

The moment you start judging a person by a number rather than their actions and words is the moment you’ve misjudged them.

15

> PLLLEEAAAASE don’t bring up the k/d argument. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out what competitive halo is, nor does it take someone who knows what competitive halo is to hide in a corner and have a good shot.

I think you’re missing the point.

I’m not good at cooking, so I don’t try to tell other people how they should cook. That would be rude and ignorant of me.
I’m not good at playing basketball, so I don’t try to tell other people how they should play basketball. That would be rude and ignorant of me.
I don’t play Halo casually, so I don’t try to tell other people how they should play Halo casually. That would be rude and ignorant of me.
All he’s asking is that players who don’t play Halo competitively not try to tell other people how to play Halo competitively, as that would be rude and ignorant of them.

16

> > PLLLEEAAAASE don’t bring up the k/d argument. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out what competitive halo is, nor does it take someone who knows what competitive halo is to hide in a corner and have a good shot.
>
> I think you’re missing the point.
>
> I’m not good at cooking, so I don’t try to tell other people how they should cook. That would be rude and ignorant of me.
> I’m not good at playing basketball, so I don’t try to tell other people how they should play basketball. That would be rude and ignorant of me.
> I don’t play Halo casually, so I don’t try to tell other people how they should play casually. That would be rude and ignorant of me.
> All he’s asking is that players who don’t play Halo competitively not try to tell other people how to play Halo competitively, as that would be rude and ignorant of them.

SILENCE! READING COMPREHENSION ISN’T ALLOWED ON THESE FORUMS!!!

17

This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not flame or attack other members.

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

> PLLLEEAAAASE don’t bring up the k/d argument. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out what competitive halo is, <mark>nor does it take someone who knows what competitive halo is to hide in a corner and have a good shot.</mark>

Thank you for proving my point. You think competitive gameplay merely boils down to the basics things such as camping or aiming, you can’t even comprehend the fact that there is a lot more at play, because you don’t understand how competitive gameplay works.

You’re the perfect example of somebody who clearly does NOT know what they’re talking about, telling the rest of us what competitive gameplay is.

18

> > PLLLEEAAAASE don’t bring up the k/d argument. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out what competitive halo is, <mark>nor does it take someone who knows what competitive halo is to hide in a corner and have a good shot.</mark>

Ha! And you talk about reading comprehension!

My point was competitive gameplay doesn’t at all boil down to BS like camping and shooting YET THOSE PEOPLE CAN STILL HAVE GOOD K/Ds!!!

Thus proving my point that people can have a good K/D but that doesn’t mean they know crap about competitive play.

Keep up with the condescension. It will take you far.

19

> > PLLLEEAAAASE don’t bring up the k/d argument. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out what competitive halo is, nor does it take someone who knows what competitive halo is to hide in a corner and have a good shot.
>
> I think you’re missing the point.
>
> I’m not good at cooking, so I don’t try to tell other people how they should cook. That would be rude and ignorant of me.
> I’m not good at playing basketball, so I don’t try to tell other people how they should play basketball. That would be rude and ignorant of me.
> I don’t play Halo casually, so I don’t try to tell other people how they should play Halo casually. That would be rude and ignorant of me.
> All he’s asking is that players who don’t play Halo competitively not try to tell other people how to play Halo competitively, as that would be rude and ignorant of them.

and I completely agree with that point. But he said it specifically boils down to K/D as a measure of understanding, which just isn’t true, thus my point.

20

all this thread is going to accomplish is start a flame war and further divide the community. we need to come together not pull apart.

no one is at fault other than a new development team. there will be bumps in the road but im sure they will learn with time.