On Map AA System Balancing Topic

Basically, this is about the balancing of on map AAs, and how we would achieve that. This is not about whether you want it or not, only post if you want to contribute to the balancing of this and you agree with the on map AA system.

Most say that we should scrap any self beneficial AAs and only keep team aid ones, limited use pick-ups. I believe this is half right, namely on map pick-ups. Self beneficial AAs can stay, for FFA playlists only, while not appearing on Team Variants, in default playlist, some others would change this. I will list the way this would be done, AAs that can work in both Self Beneficial and Team Aid will as such appear in both.

FFA Abilities:

Thruster Pack: Infinite(Changed Proposed by Ramir3z77) Uses on MM, 10 second recharge: slightly better than Halo 4’s one, First Person.

Jump Pack: 3 Uses on MM, replaces Jet Pack, 15 second recharge: essentially a vertical Thruster Pack, as you now cannot fire in mid air, to stop the instant Aerial advantage tactic, you cannot fire until you are 3 feet from solid ground after jumping, this makes it only useful for vertical movement.

Hardlight Shield: 30 seconds of Shield usage on MM: “Overheats” every 10 seconds, with a cool-down. the shield now has better cover above the players head and sides, so it is a bit better.

Any the Community can Add.

Team Abilities:

Regeneration Field: 20 Seconds of use on MM, different system, does not work on self*, no vision obscuring, have to stay in shield for recharging to work: The Regeneration Field works differently from Halo 4. now, you can use the AA button, and leave the shield up the whole 20 seconds, and leave it in one position for your team to use while you move around the map or you can let your team heal then tap the AA button to cancel the shield and keep the remaining time for later, and prevent the enemy from using your Regens. this can actually add some Ambush tactics, a player may leave it up for an enemy to use, then quickly cancel it while a teammate attacks the unsuspecting player

Placable Gravity Lifts: 2 uses on MM, Current one breaks upon anothers activation, does not lift other gravity lifts: basically, you get to carry multiple gravity lifts that you could get in Halo 3, it replaces Jetpacks in Team games, as your teammates can use it after you. also, after reaching your desired area, you can choose to “Waste” the second lift to stop enemies using your first one.

Placable Drop Shields: 2 Uses on MM, 20 second Rechage: Basically Reaches Bubble shield AA returns, without the health recharge feature, to make up for this, it is a bit stronger in terms of the damage it can take, requiring 1 direct rocket to make it almost broken, good for distraction tactics, and the ever loved grenade traps of Halo 3 :).

Any the Community can Add.

Shared Abilities:

Promethean Vision: 15 seconds of uses on MM: “Overheats” every 5 seconds, with a 10 Second cool-down. Now, it only detects players who are crouched, not moving or in Active Camouflage. also, to prevent run away from power weapon tactics, the players weapons are not indicated, or shown, the player essentially picks up heat signatures, not outlines.

Sentry Turret: 25 Seconds of Placement time on MM, 20 meter player pick up range: similar drop rules to the regeneration field, the turret is now a 4 shot kill, because if you are bad enough to die by a unmoving target that only fires if your within 20 meters, and with slower kill time than a BR, you deserve to have died by it. good for objective covering.

EMP mine: 2 use on MM, placing another detonates the first, Auto detonates after 20 seconds: basically a Halo 3 Trip mine/Power Drain Cross over, it emits a large beeping and lights up, so avoiding it is simple, it makes for better route blockage as opposed to actual mining foes, Stuns vehicles also.

Hologram: Infinite Uses: now, the Hologram will have a red nametag above it’s head, but it doesnt trigger aim assist. the name will just be some defualt GT you get given when you first make a profile, from a smaller pool. this will make it more “realistic” and better at fooling enemies. smart and pro players will notice the lack of aim assist and learn the names.

Any the Community can Add.

As you can see, AAs can be diverse in both function and mechanics, as well as balanced in their respective gametypes. I also propose that certain elements on the AAs can be edited in forge, such as duration, cool-down times, uses, weather you can use them or just your teammates or in the EMP mine, vehicles only.

Power Up Changes:

the implementation of Power Ups in previous titles has been often considered well done, up until Halo 4. I propose that certain power ups can be picked up and triggered along side your AA. for example, you can pick up the Active Camo power up on a Guardian remake, then go get the Bubble Shield AA. you can choose to trigger the AC at any time, you do not get to cancel its use, and works EXACTLY like the Halo 3 one, only you get to choose when to trigger it after pick up. this is basically so it can appear on team games as well. using a different button than the AA. You can only do this with AC and Speed Boost, not Overshield, and personally I feel damage boost should be removed. if you do not use it within 20 seconds (changable in custom games), you lose it, and it’s respawn counter starts with twenty seconds removed from the timer. this prevents abusing the Power up, and stopping you from not allowing anyone to get it until you die or such.

So, any thoughts?

I’d rather just make most of them infinite use with clearly defined visual aesthetics and balance from there. Placing them on the map is already a nerf in and of itself, most don’t need nerfed further. If anything many would need to be buffed.

Examine how Team Throwdown used to be. AA’s were in ordnance, but barely anyone ever even bothered to call them down because they were too situational to even matter. Why bother calling down a hologram after five kills if you are just going to die and have to earn it again while potentially giving away your position or making your self vulnerable?

Having a thruster pack pickup that is only limited to a few uses - useless.

The best way to balance AA’s are to remove them. They aren’t balanced and they never can be. The random factor that AA’s deliver is what makes them unbalanced. My favorite thing is not knowing that someone has hardlight shield in the middle of battle or chasing someone only for them to jetpack to an area that I can’t get to. Are their even benefits to armor abilities? Do they really add anything positive to the game? In all honesty, are their people out their that believe that armor abilities make the game better?

> The best way to balance AA’s are to remove them. They aren’t balanced and they never can be.

> My favorite thing is not knowing that someone has hardlight shield in the middle of battle

So make it that their AA either gives off a colored aura or is displayed above their head?

Wow, took me a few seconds to think of a solution for something that “can’t ever be balanced”. Stop bandwagoning.

> I’d rather just make most of them infinite use with clearly defined visual aesthetics and balance from there. Placing them on the map is already a nerf in and of itself, most don’t need nerfed further. If anything many would need to be buffed.
>
> Examine how Team Throwdown used to be. AA’s were in ordnance, but barely anyone ever even bothered to call them down because they were too situational to even matter. Why bother calling down a hologram after five kills if you are just going to die and have to earn it again while potentially giving away your position or making your self vulnerable?
>
> Having a thruster pack pickup that is only limited to a few uses - useless.

Not useless, it prevents spamming. it is very popular Idea to make them limited use, it makes the player think: Do I really need it right now? were equipment in Halo 3 useless because they were single use? No, they were not. this is an improvement on the Halo 3 system, taking our AAs, and balancing them for gameplay. and as I said, they are editable, changing the amount of uses to make it more useful exists

that said, I also agree AAs should have a clear indicator on the player model as to what they are carrying.

> The best way to balance AA’s are to remove them. They aren’t balanced and they never can be. The random factor that AA’s deliver is what makes them unbalanced. My favorite thing is not knowing that someone has hardlight shield in the middle of battle or chasing someone only for them to jetpack to an area that I can’t get to. Are their even benefits to armor abilities? Do they really add anything positive to the game? In all honesty, are their people out their that believe that armor abilities make the game better?

This method brings it back to Halo 3 style, as mentioned above. Why remove when we can build on the Halo 3 system?

> Not useless, it prevents spamming.

No, a cooldown prevents spamming.

Placing an “amount of uses” on them just makes a weak item even weaker.

As said before, barely anyone uses AA’s in Throwdown, and that’s from personal ordnance. Imagine how less they would be used if they were only found on the map every so often.

It’s a popular solution because it’s an easy one that just nerfs them so people can forget about them.

> were equipment in Halo 3 useless because they were single use? No, they were not.

Thrusting to the side is nowhere near as useful and versatile as throwing an EMP at someone. You could easily throw an EMP and kill a ton of people, whereas a Thrust will at the most allow you to dodge a power weapon.

Equipment was used in Halo 3 because the power justified the limited use. Most AA’s are too situational to be limited to a single use.

Not to mention it wouldn’t make sense putting limited uses on an item like jetpack, because these types of items don’t have “uses”, they have a fuel bar.

> > Not useless, it prevents spamming.
>
> No, a cooldown prevents spamming.
>
> Placing an “amount of uses” on them just makes a weak item even weaker.
>
> As said before, barely anyone uses AA’s in Throwdown, and that’s from personal ordnance. Imagine how less they would be used if they were only found on the map every so often.
>
> It’s a popular solution because it’s an easy one that just nerfs them so people can forget about them.
>
>
>
> > were equipment in Halo 3 useless because they were single use? No, they were not.
>
> Thrusting to the side is nowhere near as useful and versatile as throwing an EMP at someone.
>
> Equipment was used in Halo 3 because the power justified the limited use. Most AA’s are too situational to be limited to a single use.
>
> Not to mention it wouldn’t make sense putting limited uses on an item like jetpack, because these types of items don’t have “uses”, they have a fuel bar.

I changed the OP, Thruster is now infinite uses. I agree now on this

Jump pack is an FFA only on MM, it is the FFA Gravity lift essentially, as it is not teamwork orientated. and the Jump Pack is, as I said, a vertical thruster pack, not a fuel powered jet pack. Further more, this is Multiplayer, it should NOT be affected by things like that. maps are made to have stairs for the sake of realism, which ruined grenade banking, which was a key skill in grenades.

I love the idea of AAs as map pickups (including sprint). When it was used in MLG’s version of Halo Reach, I think that it played pretty well. I don’t particularly think that they need to be divided between individual and team use though. I liked the idea of equipment in H3, but most of the ones that they used I actually didn’t care for. The individual AAs are only used by one person and I understand why people don’t like that for teams, but when one person has an extra ability, that gives an advantage to the whole team. The same it true for weapons, powerups and vehicles. Maybe only one person has the sniper or rockets or overshield or ghost, but they can use those to help their team out tremendously. An easy example would be the jet pack when it was a map pick up for Halo Reach MLG. On Countdown, it was very common for one side to get top control and then the other team used their person with the jet pack to list up at just the right time to flank the other team during a rush. I think that sprint could be an incredibly useful individual team AAs. If there was one person that had sprint on your team, they could dart back and forth helping teammates in different positions.

I think that they could let people recharge their AA energy as well. It may sound like they are too powerful then, but if you watch close games, they never seem to be dominated by a person with jet pack or anything.

Edit: I do agree that you should be able to tell if and what AA a person has by looking at them. I do not like the idea of you being able to choose when to use camo. There was a glitch in h3 where you could do that and it was patched for a reason.

> Wow, took me a few seconds to think of a solution for something that “can’t ever be balanced”. Stop bandwagoning.

AAs are, for all intents and purposes, one step away from classes. When selectable and given at spawn, the reason that AAs don’t really add anything to the gameplay is that they change it into a class-based system. Everyone has different, unique abilities, and these abilities are usable at-will and an infinite number of times throughout the player’s life. The issue of AAs isn’t whether or not they can be balanced; it’s whether or not we want a shooter that looks like it’s arena-style but plays like it’s class-based.

> > were equipment in Halo 3 useless because they were single use? No, they were not.
>
> Thrusting to the side is nowhere near as useful and versatile as throwing an EMP at someone. You could easily throw an EMP and kill a ton of people, whereas a Thrust will at the most allow you to dodge a power weapon.
>
> Equipment was used in Halo 3 because the power justified the limited use. Most AA’s are too situational to be limited to a single use.

So then, AAs as map pickups are UP, but AAs as single-use items are UP as well. What if we made AAs more powerful and effective? Then we could make them map pickups and single-use, which would balance their power.

Sounds a lot like Equipment, doesn’t it?

Jet Pack would function like Halo 3’s Grav Lift: a single upwards burst.

Active Camo would function just like the power-up from CE-3 in that you are just as camouflaged whether standing still or moving. To compensate for the fact that it would be activated at-will instead of the moment you pick it up, we could lower the time from 45 seconds to, say, 30.

I can’t think of any ways to make current AAs like Hologram, Thruster Pack, etc. work like this and still be worth picking up, so anything like this would probably have to be completely different.

> I love the idea of AAs as map pickups (including sprint). When it was used in MLG’s version of Halo Reach, I think that it played pretty well. <mark>I don’t particularly think that they need to be divided between individual and team use though.</mark> I liked the idea of equipment in H3, but most of the ones that they used I actually didn’t care for. The individual AAs are only used by one person and I understand why people don’t like that for teams, but when one person has an extra ability, that gives an advantage to the whole team. The same it true for weapons, powerups and vehicles. Maybe only one person has the sniper or rockets or overshield or ghost, but they can use those to help their team out tremendously. An easy example would be the jet pack when it was a map pick up for Halo Reach MLG. On Countdown, it was very common for one side to get top control and then the other team used their person with the jet pack to list up at just the right time to flank the other team during a rush. I think that sprint could be an incredibly useful individual team AAs. If there was one person that had sprint on your team, they could dart back and forth helping teammates in different positions.
>
> I think that they could let people recharge their AA energy as well. It may sound like they are too powerful then, but if you watch close games, they never seem to be dominated by a person with jet pack or anything.

This suggested as a proposal to find a middle ground between those that like self beneficial AAs and those who want them removed from an on map system. by placing the self beneficial AAs in a FFA playlist, as it makes more senses there.

> > Wow, took me a few seconds to think of a solution for something that “can’t ever be balanced”. Stop bandwagoning.
>
> AAs are, for all intents and purposes, one step away from classes. When selectable and given at spawn, the reason that AAs don’t really add anything to the gameplay is that they change it into a class-based system. Everyone has different, unique abilities, and these abilities are usable at-will and an infinite number of times throughout the player’s life. The issue of AAs isn’t whether or not they can be balanced; it’s whether or not we want a shooter that looks like it’s arena-style but plays like it’s class-based.
>
>
>
> > > were equipment in Halo 3 useless because they were single use? No, they were not.
> >
> > Thrusting to the side is nowhere near as useful and versatile as throwing an EMP at someone. You could easily throw an EMP and kill a ton of people, whereas a Thrust will at the most allow you to dodge a power weapon.
> >
> > Equipment was used in Halo 3 because the power justified the limited use. Most AA’s are too situational to be limited to a single use.
>
> So then, AAs as map pickups are UP, but AAs as single-use items are UP as well. What if we made AAs more powerful and effective? Then we could make them map pickups and single-use, which would balance their power.
>
> Sounds a lot like Equipment, doesn’t it?
>
> Jet Pack would function like Halo 3’s Grav Lift: a single upwards burst.
>
> Active Camo would function just like the power-up from CE-3 in that you are just as camouflaged whether standing still or moving. To compensate for the fact that it would be activated at-will instead of the moment you pick it up, we could lower the time from 45 seconds to, say, 30.
>
> I can’t think of any ways to make current AAs like <mark>Hologram, Thruster Pack,</mark> etc. work like this and still be worth picking up, so anything like this would probably have to be completely different.

please excuse double post. I edited the list, weaker AAs such as Hologram or TP can have infinite uses.

EDIT: I have added Hologram to shared list, have a look at my changes to it.

Personally, I think if you’re going to do AA’s, they need to stay in loadout. If you want to make them spawn on map though, then just do Equipment. Going half-way… I don’t think it’s going to work at all.

Sidenote: If we are going to do Equipment again, I would really like a custom games option to spawn with them and and an option to specify how many times I can use it once I have it.

> AAs are, for all intents and purposes, one step away from classes.

Agreed.

> The issue of AAs isn’t whether or not they can be balanced; it’s whether or not we want a shooter that looks like it’s arena-style but plays like it’s class-based.

Agreed, more or less.

> So then, AAs as map pickups are UP, but AAs as single-use items are UP as well. What if we made AAs more powerful and effective? Then we could make them map pickups and single-use, which would balance their power.
>
> Sounds a lot like Equipment, doesn’t it?

Yes, it does. And some AA’s don’t really make sense as equipment or aren’t viable as equipment. So I’d rather redo most of the AA sandbox or just have equipment.

I would like to resay that I edited thruster pack and added hologram, look at them if you have not.

I also wish to say that I did say if you do not want on map AAs, do not post, this about helping to balance a on map AA system, not whether you agree or not.

This could work. And I like the idea of AA being used more for Team Work.

AA should be map pickups only, but we should still have settings to allow to spawn with AA for Custom Games and other fun playlist that require AA to worl.

However, like Halo 3 Equipment, I believe AA should have limited uses. But unlike Halo 3 Equipment, some AA would have multiple uses before being discarded. This would be a great evolution step. And the amount of uses can be changed via game settings.

For Example, the most powerful AA the Bubble Shield, Grav Lift, Power Drainer, etc would be a single use.

And the weaker AA like, Hologram, Thruster Pack, etc would have multiple uses.

This keeps players moving to collect new AA as they have discarded theirs. And creates area of the map people may fight to control to ensure they have control of a AA when it spawns.

Halo 3 Equipment was a great addition to what we had from Halo 2. But in REACH, Equipment became AA that had unlimited uses and you spawned with them. This was one of REACH biggest flaws. Equipment needs to return but evolve.

I think my suggestion above, is a great way of evolving Equipment but still keeping the AA aspect. A blend of them both.

> > AAs are, for all intents and purposes, one step away from classes.
>
> Agreed.
>
>
>
> > The issue of AAs isn’t whether or not they can be balanced; it’s whether or not we want a shooter that looks like it’s arena-style but plays like it’s class-based.
>
> Agreed, more or less.
>
>
>
> > So then, AAs as map pickups are UP, but AAs as single-use items are UP as well. What if we made AAs more powerful and effective? Then we could make them map pickups and single-use, which would balance their power.
> >
> > Sounds a lot like Equipment, doesn’t it?
>
> Yes, it does. And some AA’s don’t really make sense as equipment or aren’t viable as equipment. So I’d rather redo most of the AA sandbox or just have equipment.

AAs like hologram and thruster don’t make sense as equipment. I’d say we should keep those two on spawn and have a new smaller set available with them, but the new ones need to be built like thruster and hologram. However I do like the idea of equipment returning along side armor abilities. The emp or regen field would be on the map, while hologram is on spawn with thruster.

I also think that each should have icons to differentiate them that hover over the players head. They would have their own colors and would only be able to be seen in clear view and from a certain distance, so you can’t see them through walls or across the map. Either this or visual cues on the player model. As long as they’re not random.

> Visual cues on the player model. As long as they’re not random.

I think this would be great. So for a keen eye, it could be possible to see what equipment/AA a player was holding.

Still think that AA/Equipment need to be morphed into something new. That is map pickup. But can allow for multiple uses before the Equipment/AA being discarded.

The amount of times a AA/Equipment can be used can be changed via Game Settings. To allow changes if a particular AA/Equipment became too powerful, you could reduce the amount of uses that item had. Or if it was too weak, you could increase the amount of uses. You should also be able to set uses to unlimited and even allow to spawn with AA/Equipment for custom and other game types that may require this.

The Halo 3 Equipment is great, but needs to evolve. The REACH and H4 AA system causes problem and needs to be evolved. The biggest problem IMO for HR and H4 AA is that you spawn with them.

Finding a way to blend AA/Equipment together is the best way of pleasing everyone. The idea I have suggested is a combination of idea from other users on older post. And we seem to think that what we have suggested is a good way of improving the current AA system.

I love the idea of placing the armor abilities on the maps. It NEEDS to be done for the next Halo or otherwise it will fail. I think it is really as simple as that. Because armor abilities on spawn WILL NOT be picked up by the competitive community, and then once again you have a split community between competitive and casual. Competitive Halo tournaments would be useless because if the competitive version of the game is entirely different from the casual version, new players will never want to start playing competitively because they have new settings to adjust to. And MLG probably won’t even pick up Halo 5 either if it has AAs. I really cannot stress this enough: the less differences between the casual playlist and the Throwdown/MLG playlist, the better.

On topic: Like some have said before me, placing armor abilities on the map is a nerf to them. While they are useful the way you suggest them, they wouldn’t add much to the game because they would be a rare occurance. I wouldn’t go out of my way for 3 jumps to higher ground, for instance.

People go out of their way for really powerful stuff, at the level of a powerup. And powerups have always been great for the game; so why not buff all armor abilities to the level of a powerup? There is so much creative things you can do once you start thinking this way.

Let’s combine the hardlight shield, barrier, bubble shield and dropshield all in one. You place it on the ground and a large shield appears in the shape of a hemi-sphere. Not on the device, but on the side of the device where the deployer is on in a fixed radius. The shield would follow him around when he changes positions compared to the device. he could strafe back and forth over the device to flip the shield back and forth to be able to shoot and still be protected. The shield is unbreakable and deployed instantly, but is on a time limit and is single use and the enemy can walk through it. If it is not worth going out of the way for, the developers can add a regeneration field to it to make it REALLY powerful. Of course, a single grenade can take the field out and it should be placed on maps that also have a sniper on it.

That’s just one example of what can be done. Others include a ‘mobility’ powerup for a short duration that tries to combine thruster pack with jump pack and speed boost. In total, there should be like 7 or 8 powerups instead of just camo, overshield, damage boost and speed boost…

I personally hate AA’s due to the fact that they are cannot balanced, plain and simple. No two can AA’s can be balanced because they are too defined by a style of play. Its not liking to balancing weapons where range, damage, accuracy and such, balance them, for example the assault rifle and the brute shot. The brute shot is a more powerful weapon but its balanced by the fact opponents know they have one from the players stance (informs players unlike AA’s) and the projectiles are slow moving (relative to the assault rifle) so is limited by range since its incredibly hard to hit someone far away and get too close to someone the explosives damages you as well. It also has a limited magazine and most importantly not wildly available.

AA’s cannot be balanced in this sort of way because like i said, they are too defined by a way of playing and some are by default more useful therefore unbalanced. For example Promethean vision and the jetpack. Promethean vision by default is more useful because its more useful in all situations while jetpack is not. Please don’t misunderstand me when i say this. i understand that in some situations the jetpack is better but still it cannot be used in all situations. You could argue that weapons are unbalanced since a battle rifle is useful in more situations than a shotgun. The difference is chance that people have of choosing between Promethean vision and jet pack is equal unlike the chance between the battle rifle and shot gun. Since they both have the same chance of being chosen one being more useful is unbalanced. Also a shotgun makes you play close combat compared to a battle rifle but the main difference there is that weapons are derived from the battlefield through a risk reward system which balances it so your style of play is influenced by strategies you take on the battlefield meaning that everyone is on a level footing when they start/respawn.

In other words, when you are playing, any advantage you gain (e.g with a shotgun, close quarters advantage) is from your interactions with the battlefield not a menu. For example, In halo 3, if i wanted to play close quarters i would have earn that through the battlefield. either from an another player (risk/reward)or go to it’s spawn location (e.g the pit, the shotgun is in an enclosed space with two exits into the open, meaning very easy to flush out with grenades= risk/reward). It’s balanced since not everyone can have it and they are also not completely restricted due to that choice of picking up a shot gun. This is unlike Halo 4 in which for example you pick autosentry, you have an advantage, you’re choosing to playing a defensive role meaning aggressors have an immediate disadvantage. This already upsets the balance of a even playing field. Secondly the player is restricted that by that style till he/she respawns since if he/she changes from defensive play to an aggressive play, he/she would be disadvantaged against other players since autosentry is not meant geared towards dynamic engagements (i.e engagements where the players aren’t static and waiting)

If AA’s are to continue, i believe that the pick up system is the most balanced way. If you look at halo 3 equipment, the equipment were very overpowered but they were limited to one use which meant two things. Their power did not unbalance the game since they only had one use which meant that there was a risk/reward situation; in game theory terms, use it now for payoff x or use it later for a possible payoff y, in which y>x or y=0. Meaning that the equipment can be used later for greater gain or get killed and receive no use from it. The second thing is that equipment never had to be balanced against each other because they were so limited there was no need to balance the bubble shield with power drain. Halo 4 on the other hand had to but since you have 8 different AA’s you cannot balance them all with each other especially when they are so functionally different and all have the same chance of being chosen.