First off, we can agree with the premise that fighting games are competitive. I haven’t seen a fighting game title that isn’t. If we can agree that the first is true then by following basic logic, dynamic spawns is also competitive.
Lost?
I’ll go through it.
First lets look at the somewhat recently released Skullgirls title. It’s a new IP in the fighting game genre and borrows heavily/pays homage to other great fighters out there. It’s overall design is a blend of several different fighting games. Reviews have been good, and the only major problems being based around the fact that it has a small character roster. One of the features in Skullgirls is that if your opponent gets you locked into an unbreakable combo, the game breaks you out of it.
Why is plain for me to see. It’s not fun being the punching bag for your entire health bar. Especially when there are characters combos out there that can easily set up an unbreakable combo. This was a problem that brought down Street Fighter x Tekken in at least one review.
I relate unbreakable combos to being spawn killed in Halo. In both instances you are stuck, unable to do anything to fight back. Thus I relate dynamic spawns to the Skullgirls feature that breaks you out of an unbreakable combo. It’s meant to break the combo and allow the player who was stuck a chance to retaliate. Because nobody likes being the punching bag.
So why are Dynamic Spawns so hated in Halo by the competitive community?
Dynamic spawns are almost irrelevant when it comes to one team beating the hell out of the other. Competitive players prefer static spawning because competitive players want an even match.
So in order to promote balance and minimize randomness, it would be ideal to have both teams spawning in a set area (their “base”) as opposed to having one or two of their players get lucky spawns which completely destroy any map control or setup the other team had going.
Nobody really cares about how it is when one team is clearly better than the other by a significant margin, but when teams are roughly even and know what they’re doing dynamic spawns on certain maps just end in a sloppy, unpredictable mess. In the same way that static spawns on an asymmetric map results in one team gaining an advantage from the start that holds throughout the game.
Neither of those setups are fair for both teams involved because they rely so much on chance either in-game or in the map selection offered in the lobby.
Competitive players want settings that work best against other players of a similar skill level. The fact that those settings also show the gap between mismatched teams much more greatly is simply a by-product of the skillgap and teams or players not being matched appropriately. At the highest levels everybody gets spawn trapped multiple times within the same game as the match goes back and forth, nobody who understands what’s going on in those games complains about “being the punchbag” in those scenarios because they know how and why it’s ended up that way and exactly what they need to do to get out of it and flip it on their opponents.
Incidentally that shows that being spawn trapped isn’t equatable to an unbreakable combo, because the trap can be broken on all but the most poorly designed maps. Just because a team isn’t good enough to break the trap or doesn’t know how to doesn’t make it unbreakable across the board.
Dynamic spawns can introduce a random effect. I would also like to state that in the higher levels of competitve play static spawns work very well. Most teams at high levels when matched against one another not only know how to spawn trap, but also break spawn traps. Also keep in mind that the only playlist I’ve seen use static spawns is MLG. Which if you’re playing that then maybe you should be prepared to play against a good team who can spawn trap and break set ups.
Keep in mind Dynamic spawns don’t prevent spawn trapping. It’s just less likely to happen. However a good team knows all the spawn points regardless of the spawn implementation and can take advantage of it. Highground in H3. You can spawn at either end of the map based on enemy location, but a good team could spot you off spawn regardless.
While I find it somewhat bizarre comparing a fighting game and an FPS in this context, here’s what I think.
Some “unbreakable” combos are deemed unmashable (that is, no amount of button pressing will break the combo) - and getting spawn trapped is not like this. You have plenty of opportunities to fight back and break the spawn trap - and a superior team will do just this.
If you take the time to gain the knowledge of spawn traps, and are fortunate (and skillful) enough to set up a spawn trap then you deserve to reap the rewards. It’s just how Arena shooters work. The very same is with unbreakable combos - a very harsh punishment for a mistake by your opponent.
What I generally hate more than anything is “camping” of any kind. If you’re playing an objective game like CTF or whatever, camping makes sense. But in a gametype like “Slayer”, I’ve always felt it to be rather cheap. How? It requires no skill to do, just the desire to do so. With a shotgun, sniper, sword, etcetera.
I’d always thought the solution to “spawn camping” could and should be applied to all kinds of camping.
“Dynamic spawns” and blah blah blah is fine… The problem is, there aren’t enough spawn points on a map, and when there are ones that spawn players BEHIND YOU… Well, people whine about that.
My solution is this:
If you sit in a set area too long… You start losing points… Or your weapons start doing less and less damage. Maybe even perhaps add a marker over your head that can be seen through walls and the like so people KNOW you’re camping right there.
The marker would likely be the best option as it would keep shotgun/sword campers from sitting on one place too long and picking people off (which doesn’t require much skill… You can do this same tactic with the melee to the same effect). And… Well… It would leave the camping SNIPERS laregly alone as you already know where they are if they’ve shot at you. Plus, the marker over the a Sniper’s head does not guarantee you’ll be able to kill them.
But, that’s my two cents. Slayer should be relatively fast-paced in Halo. Matches get dull when you spend them hunting down the other team who has decided to camp.
As for spawn camping… I guess if it’s possible to do it, it should be a tactic. I’ve rarely ever seen it executed well in a Halo game though. Yeah, in Halo 2 is pretty prevalant… especially on Zanzibar… But since that bug-ridden game it’s been pretty free of any kind of spawn camping. The rare exception being a team doing it with sniper rifles or long-range tank shots on an open map like Coagulation (or whatever it’s being called now).
As long as spawns remain varied (perhaps giving you more than three to choose from would be nice) I see it as a non-issue.
Apparently some people here underestimate just how easy it is to spawn camp once the spawn positions have been manipulated… In MLG, the number of deaths due to spawn trapping is almost always less than 5 per match and that’s even on the landslides so to sit there and say “spawn trapping is totally part of MLG” is a little BS. The only time spawn trapping happens in actual competitive MLG matches (not the poorly matched MLG playlist matchups) is if all 4 members of the team go down and the opposing team instantly gains key point control, which actually happens less often than you would think.
Also this: there’s a huge gap between “I know the enemy is going to spawn here” and “My sniper rifle is already lined up on their spawn position.” One is perfectly okay and even encouraged, the other should NEVER happen.
> Dynamic spawns are almost irrelevant when it comes to one team beating the hell out of the other. Competitive players prefer static spawning because competitive players want an even match.
>
> So in order to promote balance and minimize randomness, it would be ideal to have both teams spawning in a set area (their “base”) as opposed to having one or two of their players get lucky spawns which completely destroy any map control or setup the other team had going.
I agree that dynamic spawns get rid of map control. Most of the points I have seen are really good.
> So why are Dynamic Spawns so hated in Halo by the competitive community?
Because they spawn a team out of a situation they put themselves in.
If you’re getting spawn camped, it’s the fault of 2 things:
1 - the map
2 - your own skill
If you are in a spawn trap of any kind, it’s part of the game and is the result of 1 team being superior to the other. In high level play, it is not unusual for players to get spawn killed because they lost map control. When you lose map control, you have to earn the ground back - keeping yourself alive in a spawn trap and taking back map control. Most players think a spawn trap is instantaneous - that is false. In a spawn trap, you are just that: trapped in your spawn with a high chance of dying. It is then up to YOU and your team to get out of the trap - it should not be and is not the duty of the game to spawn you out of it. That’s the consequences of not being up to par with the other team. Static spawns reward a good team - you took map control, if you are the smarter team, you can get a few spawn kills in before the other team breaks out and contests map control again. This is the Halo flow.
With dynamic spawns, a team takes map control and they are not rewarded with the possibility of a spawn trap being set up if they are smart players. The game spawns the enemy team elsewhere and instead of a good team being rewarded, a bad team is given a grace period.
Spawn killing happens in almost every game of Halo - it was just more prevalent due to Reach’s lack of trueskill which pitted good players against bad players consistently.
tl;dr - if you’re in a spawn trap, it’s your own fault.
What about being able to control the spawn because your spawn trapping (camping) doesn’t allow the other players to EVER collect a power weapon? I’ve been in a few games in Halo 2 where this was the case. Spawn, rocket to face. Spawn, sniper to face. Spawn, sword in chest. Spawn, rocket to face again. Spawn sword to back this time. Spawn, sniped in the face again. Enemies all up on high ground and your BR is a very poor counter to a rocket launcher and a sword. It’s a decent counter to a sniper, but by that point, the enemy already has YOUR sniper rifle as well, and you’re just stuck. No way out other than sheer luck or if the game was programmed better to LET YOU OUT when it should.
I’m in favor of getting rid of “spawn trapping” altogether. As in… More spawn points. Enemy can see half of the map, spawn in the other half. Enemy can see the ENTIRE map… spawn indoors or someplace else. Map control should be about CONTROLLING THE MAP not about CONTROLLING THE SPAWNS.
Few players realize that and seem to think the two are interchangable.
Controlling a map is NOT controlling spawns and spawn camping/spawn trapping. That is controlling spawns. Controlling a map is know where the enemy is likely to spawn at any given instant based upon where your teammates and you are, and going to that location immediately to continue the fight. Controlling the map also entails TIMING the weapon spawns and powerup spawns so the enemy can’t get them. It has nothing to do with simply keeping the enemy in their base so that you can collect the weapons whenever you feel like it.
Map control involves looking around, being situationally aware, knowing how the map works, and how people can get around your positons and not letting that happen.
Spawn trapping is not this. Spawn trapping is simply pinning the enemy in their spawn so you don’t have to do any REAL work for the rest of the match. Equivalent to kicking a man while he’s down on the ground and bleeding. Sure you could keep doing it and be “winning” the fight, but it’s hardly noble or sportsmanlike. Especially after you’ve killed him.
> Getting out of spawn traps isisnt impossible. Good teams do it on a regular basis.
>
> This also wouldnt happen in MM if the system didnt match <mark>Ogre 2 against Tommy Thumbless</mark>.
>
> And Halo is not a fighter.
You have no idea what a spawn trap is or how hard it is to pull off against a team that is equal or better in skill than you. Get 3 of your buds, go to the MLG playlist, and see how easy it is to spawn kill the opposing team.
I dont know what to tell people who complain about getting “Spawn-trapped/camped” first of all that almost never happens longer than 30 seconds unless like the poster above me said, you are completely out-matched. I have never been “spawn-trapped” in a close match longer than 30 seconds.
So essentially what you’re complaining about is spawn-killing which is very difficult to do in Halo due to players having shields, and is only doable with PW’s like the sniper or the Tank in BTB.
As for dynamic spawns, all I have to say is Narrows TS in H3. That was a huge cluster–Yoink- of a gametype that offered almost zero predictability in where the enemy was spawning, and caused some really random situations. This is detrimental to Halo, as PW’s are constantly spawning and controlling these positions is key.
If you want to know the definition of a spawn-trap, play H1 Prisoner against superior opponents and then come talk to me. What happens in later Halo titles outside of H1 is not “spawn-trapping” its most of the time “Shut-down map positioning” or “Spawn-killing for extended periods of time”.
I goes without saying that players don’t want to be shot off spawn as this is exploitation of the game. However confining an enemy team into areas requires team coordination and skill.
With dynamic spawns, enemies spawn behind you after you have fought for control for focal points on the map. This discourages map control and encourages camping with power weapons. This is fact.