The last match I played today was SWAT on Ascension in Halo 2. This map especially on Halo 2 Anniversary has a great atmosphere which counts for a lot of maps.
But one of the biggest flaws in Bungie era of Halo multiplayer are the spawns in my opinion. And why is that?
.
Well, the reason lies within the gamers itself. There are those who just like to play random games for fun or even for challenges (since the implementation of seasons) and then there are those who seek for the competition and go all in for the win.
That’s why there are two kind of game modes that seperate these people into social and ranked which I will further on call in a very simplified way “unskilled” and “skilled” people / gamers.
.
Now I know it’s no solution to separate the social from the ranked people. That’s not where I wanna go as the topic already mentions.
I would really wish for a more harmonic gameplay. What do I mean?
Well, the skilled people desperately want the win and will go very deeply into gameplay & map mechanics and settings. They will start memorizing everything bit by bit to their own advantage like player, weapon, vehicle and power up spawns (what/who spawns where and when), very beneficial camping spots, unusual gameplay by making use of bugs inside a map or even by reaching places you are actually not meant to be etc… They will learn almost or even all of it.
If somebody goes into a ranked game like that, then that’s fine. But if someone or even a whole skilled team goes into a social match against a bunch of headless chickens then I don’t believe that both teams are actually having fun. I believe even skilled players get bored after a while if they have no competition.
.
I can already hear the criticism of people saying “Then stop playing if you suck!”, Go play campaign if you are so bad!", Then just do the same and memorize the spawns and …!", …
What I am wishing for Infinite is a more fair gameplay where nobody can predict where and when the next power weapon / up and gamer will spawn.
Playing against a skilled team with all the power weapons placed in the right positions spawn slapping the other team is not an enjoyable match.
In addition it should not be rewarded with more power ups / weapons if you are already shredding the enemy into pieces. In Halo 4 and Halo 5 you are rewarded with power weapons or extra points to get better weapons if you were good giving you an even higher advantage afterwards. In my opinion It should be the absolute other way around. The team that is obviously losing should be the ones getting some kind of support.
Just reminds of real life. If you don’t have a high enough income on your bank account then you have to pay account maintenance fee. But if your a rich guy you don’t have to pay any account fees. Why stress people in a worse situation even more? But this isn’t real life, it’s a game. And games can be fair.
I think this is a fundamental problem with how people now play as oppose to used to play, with the wide adoption of e-sports and it’s integral nature in almost every multiplayer game on the market it’s created a more competitive mindset for people to adopt and casual play has suffered greatly because of it, I don’t think a band-aid solution such as this really quells the problem, since randomized spawns would only serve to impact both casual and competitive play with it’s chaotic nature.
I think there are multiple solutions for trying to separate the casual and competitive players but a lot of them involve splintering options which would only serve to drive up wait time between games, such as the idea to have social playlists options like “do not match with parties” & “search for people similar to my xp rank”. quite honestly I’m not sure if a solution that appeases most people exists.
I respect your ideas but overall disagree with them. If a team fights for a power weapon, the winning team deserves that weapon. It shouldn’t be tossed to the losing team, that’s just pity points and there’s no honor in pity.
> 2533274834504968;1:
> But this isn’t real life, it’s a game. And games can be fair.
Ironically your solution would make the game less fair.
In some Halo titles you could manipulate weapon spawns which would mean the less skilled players were at a further disadvantage. In Halo 5 the weapons respawn on a timer, you get warning and the location given to you. Something I don’t like about this is how obvious it is if a player picks up the weapon, it completely gives it away. This system helps newer players find and contest power weapons so overall it’s a good idea.
In terms of spawns, I think spawn prediction and manipulation is an important factor in making the game an enjoyable and fair experience in ranked gametypes.
Something that would benefit you is having much tighter skill based matchmaking in social. As a more competitive player I don’t like this idea as it means there are no playlists I can play more casually in. It also means no players will really get the opportunity to have great games as you’ll generally be going 1.0 k/d every game on average. We all will, with a 50% average win rate. While it does help players be more adjusted, it also means you’ll pretty much never experience a perfection, you probably won’t get many multikill medals and the game is far less pleasing for watchers of streamers which is a good way of improving popularity and population. Lots of factors but generally I think social should use skill based matchmaking, but not too tightly.
Everything you’ve mentioned is so antithetical to Halo, it astounds me that you even like the game. But then again, you play SWAT.
First of all, making spawns weapons/power ups random will not make the game any more fair than it already is. Everyone has the ability to know where weapons and power ups spawn, and everyone can time them, making it fair. If someone kills you and subsequently obtains a power weapon, that doesn’t make the game unfair. It just means they’re better than you. That’s literally all it means.
When you say:
> In my opinion It should be the absolute other way around. The team that is obviously losing should be the ones getting some kind of support.
What your asking for here is not fairness, what you’re asking for is a handicap.
Making player spawns random is even more ridiculous, and would result in extremely frustrating gameplay. Just to provide a single example though, is that it would mean players can spawn literally in melee range of an enemy, resulting in instant death to one of the players. How does this sound fun to you?
I could literally write a novel explaining why what your suggesting is a terrible idea, but I will summarise it by simply saying that would you’re suggesting is not only impractical, but would be incredibly unenjoyable to the vast majority of the population.
> 2533274937939153;3:
> I respect your ideas but overall disagree with them. If a team fights for a power weapon, the winning team deserves that weapon. It shouldn’t be tossed to the losing team, that’s just pity points and there’s no honor in pity.
At the end I’d be pretty happy with any kind of solution.
But why does there have to be a reward anyway? The rewarding system started off with Halo 4 and continued with Halo 5. There was nothing like that before.
If this kind of system will continue then it should not reward the good but instead support lesser skilled.
.
Sounds really serious when you talking about honor 
Well, I don’t see any honor in spawn killing.
.
Furthermore, I like to highlight the comment of Pfh7. I guess many people forgot that multiplayer isn’t just about winning a match. It’s also about the experience. The great, funny and weird moments.
I will never forget my 1v1 against my buddy on ChironTL map on the old classic Xbox via LAN.
None of us new where all the teleports lead to or when the next over shield or rocket would spawn. It was a nip-and-tuck race. At the end it was 49 to 49.
Our last clash took place in the center where you can find ovi and invis. I had the rockets and saw him come around the corner what he also noticed. I took my shot but only managed wound him while he shot me down with his pistol. We both were screaming full of joy and shock. I lost but had the blast of my life.
That match wouldn’t have been as joyfull and memorable if I would’ve known all about spawns and used them to my advantage. Nor do I think it would’ve been better if anyone would’ve gained power ups for getting a 5 kill in row for example.
> 2533274834504968;6:
> > 2533274937939153;3:
> > I respect your ideas but overall disagree with them. If a team fights for a power weapon, the winning team deserves that weapon. It shouldn’t be tossed to the losing team, that’s just pity points and there’s no honor in pity.
>
> At the end I’d be pretty happy with any kind of solution.
> But why does there have to be a reward anyway? The rewarding system started off with Halo 4 and continued with Halo 5. There was nothing like that before.
> If this kind of system will continue then it should not reward the good but instead support lesser skilled.
The only reward system i can think of in halo 5 is within warzone. This system doesn’t just reward kills but base captures etc and is limited as when you use a req you need to wait before using another high level req. In arena there’s no reward for kills apart from map positioning which is what leads to things such as spawn killing, in regards to spawn killing and power weapon control this is a tactical part of the game and to remove would not be feasible and would penalise players for being better than others.
i was into the competitive scene in halo since it started. learning spawns, spawn trapping in halo CE , thats always been a thing. Its not just become a thing because of how much bigger e-sports is today.
Sure its annoying if you don’t know how to do it, but its been a part of halo for a long time. IT adds alot of depth into the competitive scene. WIthout it you just have to much rng involved where in a tight game a random spawn on a flanked team can mean a terrible way to lose a game.
Maybe a balance can be found with casual playlists having a well designed random spawn system, other than that i think for competitive , it needs to stay. Its a stapple of competitive play as much as power weapon timers are.
> 2533274834504968;1:
> The last match I played today was SWAT on Ascension in Halo 2. This map especially on Halo 2 Anniversary has a great atmosphere which counts for a lot of maps.
> But one of the biggest flaws in Bungie era of Halo multiplayer are the spawns in my opinion. And why is that?
> .
> Well, the reason lies within the gamers itself. There are those who just like to play random games for fun or even for challenges (since the implementation of seasons) and then there are those who seek for the competition and go all in for the win.
> That’s why there are two kind of game modes that seperate these people into social and ranked which I will further on call in a very simplified way “unskilled” and “skilled” people / gamers.
> .
> Now I know it’s no solution to separate the social from the ranked people. That’s not where I wanna go as the topic already mentions.
> I would really wish for a more harmonic gameplay. What do I mean?
> Well, the skilled people desperately want the win and will go very deeply into gameplay & map mechanics and settings. They will start memorizing everything bit by bit to their own advantage like player, weapon, vehicle and power up spawns (what/who spawns where and when), very beneficial camping spots, unusual gameplay by making use of bugs inside a map or even by reaching places you are actually not meant to be etc… They will learn almost or even all of it.
> If somebody goes into a ranked game like that, then that’s fine. But if someone or even a whole skilled team goes into a social match against a bunch of headless chickens then I don’t believe that both teams are actually having fun. I believe even skilled players get bored after a while if they have no competition.
> .
> I can already hear the criticism of people saying “Then stop playing if you suck!”, Go play campaign if you are so bad!", Then just do the same and memorize the spawns and …!", …
> What I am wishing for Infinite is a more fair gameplay where nobody can predict where and when the next power weapon / up and gamer will spawn.
> Playing against a skilled team with all the power weapons placed in the right positions spawn slapping the other team is not an enjoyable match.
> In addition it should not be rewarded with more power ups / weapons if you are already shredding the enemy into pieces. In Halo 4 and Halo 5 you are rewarded with power weapons or extra points to get better weapons if you were good giving you an even higher advantage afterwards. In my opinion It should be the absolute other way around. The team that is obviously losing should be the ones getting some kind of support.
> Just reminds of real life. If you don’t have a high enough income on your bank account then you have to pay account maintenance fee. But if your a rich guy you don’t have to pay any account fees. Why stress people in a worse situation even more? But this isn’t real life, it’s a game. And games can be fair.
I just fundamentally disagree. that goes against one of the core principals of halo. Timing power weapons and gaining map knowledge is one of the most important skills in halo. I think your issue more lies in better matchmaking. Now thats a different beast all together, should there be skill based matchmaking in social? In my opinion no, but a lower skilled player at the bottom of the skill spectrum will probably disagree, but on the other hand very skilled players dont want to have to sweat constantly either. With heavy skill based matching its a sweatfest at every skill level in social which is lame too. We need a lax sbmm for social where its a range. That way you have varying skills in every match but you wont get a pro vs someone in their first match ever either.
> 2535442457840708;7:
> > 2533274834504968;6:
> > > 2533274937939153;3:
> > > I respect your ideas but overall disagree with them. If a team fights for a power weapon, the winning team deserves that weapon. It shouldn’t be tossed to the losing team, that’s just pity points and there’s no honor in pity.
> >
> > At the end I’d be pretty happy with any kind of solution.
> > But why does there have to be a reward anyway? The rewarding system started off with Halo 4 and continued with Halo 5. There was nothing like that before.
> > If this kind of system will continue then it should not reward the good but instead support lesser skilled.
>
> The only reward system i can think of in halo 5 is within warzone. This system doesn’t just reward kills but base captures etc and is limited as when you use a req you need to wait before using another high level req. In arena there’s no reward for kills apart from map positioning which is what leads to things such as spawn killing, in regards to spawn killing and power weapon control this is a tactical part of the game and to remove would not be feasible and would penalise players for being better than others.
Yeah, concerning H5 I was referring to Warzone. Forgot to highlight.
> 2555390681439134;8:
> i was into the competitive scene in halo since it started. learning spawns, spawn trapping in halo CE , thats always been a thing. Its not just become a thing because of how much bigger e-sports is today.
> Sure its annoying if you don’t know how to do it, but its been a part of halo for a long time. IT adds alot of depth into the competitive scene. WIthout it you just have to much rng involved where in a tight game a random spawn on a flanked team can mean a terrible way to lose a game.
>
> Maybe a balance can be found with casual playlists having a well designed random spawn system, other than that i think for competitive , it needs to stay. Its a stapple of competitive play as much as power weapon timers are.
Well, you as a skilled player have probably made this experience a lot and I would really like to know if you truly feel satisfied when you are up to enemies that have no chance at all due to these pro strategies you use. It’s actually hard for me to believe that you and your pro team (suppose you have a bunch of equally skilled buddies) are actually having real fun or feel satisfied when spawn trapping and killing rookies or standard skilled players and winning a match with a 50 to 10 or 5 stats.
I mean, when I’m in a match with 2-3 guys on my team being pros from hell using spawn traps and keeping an eye on weapon spawns etc. I know how the match will end and I don’t feel the satisfaction. To me these games are bananas.
Hopefully they have better spawns in Infinite than MCC since I have seen enough people in the past cheating by exploiting the poor design game design choices that 343i seem to think is ok. Just want to have a fun experience without it stressing me out.
> 2533274836018143;9:
> > 2533274834504968;1:
> > The last match I played today was SWAT on Ascension in Halo 2. This map especially on Halo 2 Anniversary has a great atmosphere which counts for a lot of maps.
> > But one of the biggest flaws in Bungie era of Halo multiplayer are the spawns in my opinion. And why is that?
> > .
> > Well, the reason lies within the gamers itself. There are those who just like to play random games for fun or even for challenges (since the implementation of seasons) and then there are those who seek for the competition and go all in for the win.
> > That’s why there are two kind of game modes that seperate these people into social and ranked which I will further on call in a very simplified way “unskilled” and “skilled” people / gamers.
> > .
> > Now I know it’s no solution to separate the social from the ranked people. That’s not where I wanna go as the topic already mentions.
> > I would really wish for a more harmonic gameplay. What do I mean?
> > Well, the skilled people desperately want the win and will go very deeply into gameplay & map mechanics and settings. They will start memorizing everything bit by bit to their own advantage like player, weapon, vehicle and power up spawns (what/who spawns where and when), very beneficial camping spots, unusual gameplay by making use of bugs inside a map or even by reaching places you are actually not meant to be etc… They will learn almost or even all of it.
> > If somebody goes into a ranked game like that, then that’s fine. But if someone or even a whole skilled team goes into a social match against a bunch of headless chickens then I don’t believe that both teams are actually having fun. I believe even skilled players get bored after a while if they have no competition.
> > .
> > I can already hear the criticism of people saying “Then stop playing if you suck!”, Go play campaign if you are so bad!", Then just do the same and memorize the spawns and …!", …
> > What I am wishing for Infinite is a more fair gameplay where nobody can predict where and when the next power weapon / up and gamer will spawn.
> > Playing against a skilled team with all the power weapons placed in the right positions spawn slapping the other team is not an enjoyable match.
> > In addition it should not be rewarded with more power ups / weapons if you are already shredding the enemy into pieces. In Halo 4 and Halo 5 you are rewarded with power weapons or extra points to get better weapons if you were good giving you an even higher advantage afterwards. In my opinion It should be the absolute other way around. The team that is obviously losing should be the ones getting some kind of support.
> > Just reminds of real life. If you don’t have a high enough income on your bank account then you have to pay account maintenance fee. But if your a rich guy you don’t have to pay any account fees. Why stress people in a worse situation even more? But this isn’t real life, it’s a game. And games can be fair.
>
> I just fundamentally disagree. that goes against one of the core principals of halo. Timing power weapons and gaining map knowledge is one of the most important skills in halo. I think your issue more lies in better matchmaking. Now thats a different beast all together, should there be skill based matchmaking in social? In my opinion no, but a lower skilled player at the bottom of the skill spectrum will probably disagree, but on the other hand very skilled players dont want to have to sweat constantly either. With heavy skill based matching its a sweatfest at every skill level in social which is lame too. We need a lax sbmm for social where its a range. That way you have varying skills in every match but you wont get a pro vs someone in their first match ever either.
This was exactly my thought on the subject.
The main issue right now is that even with the resurgence of MCC, the community is pretty much made up of people who take Halo very seriously. Once we get a new launch with Infinite, there will be a time where skills can truly be separated and the lopsided type of matches shouldn’t be as prevelant. SBMM works best when it can actually match you with people in your skill range, instead of trying to Frankenstein together teams to make the overall skill match.
> 2533274834504968;6:
> > 2533274937939153;3:
> > I respect your ideas but overall disagree with them. If a team fights for a power weapon, the winning team deserves that weapon. It shouldn’t be tossed to the losing team, that’s just pity points and there’s no honor in pity.
>
> At the end I’d be pretty happy with any kind of solution.
> But why does there have to be a reward anyway? The rewarding system started off with Halo 4 and continued with Halo 5. There was nothing like that before.
> If this kind of system will continue then it should not reward the good but instead support lesser skilled.
> .
> Sounds really serious when you talking about honor
> Well, I don’t see any honor in spawn killing.
> .
> Furthermore, I like to highlight the comment of Pfh7. I guess many people forgot that multiplayer isn’t just about winning a match. It’s also about the experience. The great, funny and weird moments.
> I will never forget my 1v1 against my buddy on ChironTL map on the old classic Xbox via LAN.
> None of us new where all the teleports lead to or when the next over shield or rocket would spawn. It was a nip-and-tuck race. At the end it was 49 to 49.
> Our last clash took place in the center where you can find ovi and invis. I had the rockets and saw him come around the corner what he also noticed. I took my shot but only managed wound him while he shot me down with his pistol. We both were screaming full of joy and shock. I lost but had the blast of my life.
> That match wouldn’t have been as joyfull and memorable if I would’ve known all about spawns and used them to my advantage. Nor do I think it would’ve been better if anyone would’ve gained power ups for getting a 5 kill in row for example.
I don’t see it as a reward, but as an earned accomplishment. The victors have crossed a big hurdle to achieve their new toy and that’s a feeling that shouldn’t be stolen from them.
Spawn killing is an issue, I do think player spawns should be better as well.
Also nice story! Even though I get competitive at times, I do believe that Halo is all about the wacky and crazy experiences that you don’t get from other games.
In terms of just weapon spawns, though, I think that the smaller good weapons (say a map had a DMR, shotgun, and needler) should randomly choose which spots they would spawn in. So this way, those who want to play competitively can still learn the spawns, but the lesser-skilled folk don’t have to worry about the skilled folk always having a shotgun or something. Large power weapons/items were done almost perfectly in Halo 5. A timer tells everyone when it drops, so there’s no memorization needed, just the skill of you and your comrades.
> 2533274834504968;11:
> > 2555390681439134;8:
> > i was into the competitive scene in halo since it started. learning spawns, spawn trapping in halo CE , thats always been a thing. Its not just become a thing because of how much bigger e-sports is today.
> > Sure its annoying if you don’t know how to do it, but its been a part of halo for a long time. IT adds alot of depth into the competitive scene. WIthout it you just have to much rng involved where in a tight game a random spawn on a flanked team can mean a terrible way to lose a game.
> >
> > Maybe a balance can be found with casual playlists having a well designed random spawn system, other than that i think for competitive , it needs to stay. Its a stapple of competitive play as much as power weapon timers are.
>
> Well, you as a skilled player have probably made this experience a lot and I would really like to know if you truly feel satisfied when you are up to enemies that have no chance at all due to these pro strategies you use. It’s actually hard for me to believe that you and your pro team (suppose you have a bunch of equally skilled buddies) are actually having real fun or feel satisfied when spawn trapping and killing rookies or standard skilled players and winning a match with a 50 to 10 or 5 stats.
> I mean, when I’m in a match with 2-3 guys on my team being pros from hell using spawn traps and keeping an eye on weapon spawns etc. I know how the match will end and I don’t feel the satisfaction. To me these games are bananas.
ur making to many assumptions there man. u assume i do this in casual games to players who just wanna chill. no i dont,and i know others in groups do. But this is why i said in my post how maybe they could find a middle ground to change it up for non ranked games. Spawn camping / trapping becomes a very enjoyable thing if both teams in a competitive game know how it works, it changes the game up alot and infact most of the time both teams wont get spawn trapped, but it keeps you on you’re toes and punishes mistakes.
restate this again doing this in casual games is kinda pointless, because it just leads to very one sided games, like shooting fish in a barrel, yeh its not fun. but again, dont remove the idea of spawn control from the entire game because it is not fun in casual games. just remove it from casual games and keep it in ranked, which is what i said in my original post.
> 2533274834504968;1:
> What I am wishing for Infinite is a more fair gameplay where nobody can predict where and when the next power weapon / up and gamer will spawn.
>
> The team that is obviously losing should be the ones getting some kind of support.
I’m agree, nobody should be able to predict where a weapon will arrive. People say, you can memorize it too, but no, your not everywhere, you can’t see a vehicule destroyed at the other side of the map. I personnaly use this technic and have a lot of game where I am the only one to use a weapon or a vehicule and I recognize it’s not faire for the other.
Moreover, in objectives game where the map is divide in two camp, I see vehicule appear in the base right next to an ennemy, it’s non sense !
About the difference between a team who win and the other wo lose, I understand your idea to help the losing team, but I think it would be to difficult to establish. I’m for a total equality, and when I see in Halo 5 warzone good players having better weapon than bad players, I’m very shock !!!
> 2535436152010337;16:
> > 2533274834504968;1:
> > What I am wishing for Infinite is a more fair gameplay where nobody can predict where and when the next power weapon / up and gamer will spawn.
> >
> > The team that is obviously losing should be the ones getting some kind of support.
>
> About the difference between a team who win and the other wo lose, I understand your idea to help the losing team, but I think it would be to difficult to establish. I’m for a total equality, and when I see in Halo 5 warzone good players having better weapon than bad players, I’m very shock !!!
The problem is you’re in Warzone looking for ‘total equality’. The whole point of Warzone was to be a cluster mess of chaos with big bad weapons and vehicles flying left and right all over. The whole point of Arena was the exact polar opposite of that: Equal Starts.
Back on topic, I don’t feel randomness is a very good solution since randomness. You’d still have the better players hammering down on people and you’d have a “general idea” of where the power weapons would spawn so just keep a hawk’s eye on it for when they do. And random spawns? I’ve had enough of that in CE Big Team to know how well that would go.
> 2533274850869596;17:
> > 2535436152010337;16:
> > > 2533274834504968;1:
> > >
>
> The problem is you’re in Warzone looking for ‘total equality’. The whole point of Warzone was to be a cluster mess of chaos with big bad weapons and vehicles flying left and right all over. The whole point of Arena was the exact polar opposite of that: Equal Starts.
What a stupid idea they had !
> 2535436152010337;18:
> > 2533274850869596;17:
> > > 2535436152010337;16:
> > > > 2533274834504968;1:
> > > >
> >
> > The problem is you’re in Warzone looking for ‘total equality’. The whole point of Warzone was to be a cluster mess of chaos with big bad weapons and vehicles flying left and right all over. The whole point of Arena was the exact polar opposite of that: Equal Starts.
>
> What a stupid idea they had !
To each their own; but I spent like 80% of my time in Warzone because that sort of chaos is my jam. I’ve never been much for the tight 4v4 or 5v5 stuff, a little bit here and there I can do but for me it’s Big Team for Life, and Warzone was like Even Bigger Team so right up my alley. Ditto with Big Team Fiesta.
And that’s the beauty of keeping Warzone separate from Arena; they can add all the overpowered weapons they want, all the experimental stuff they want, and it’d never once intrude upon the Arena side of things. You think it’s stupid, I think it’s one of the best ideas they had since Dominion.
> 2533274850869596;19:
> > 2535436152010337;18:
> > > 2533274850869596;17:
> > > > 2535436152010337;16:
> > > > > 2533274834504968;1:
> > > > >
> > >
> > > The problem is you’re in Warzone looking for ‘total equality’. The whole point of Warzone was to be a cluster mess of chaos with big bad weapons and vehicles flying left and right all over. The whole point of Arena was the exact polar opposite of that: Equal Starts.
> >
> > What a stupid idea they had !
>
> To each their own; but I spent like 80% of my time in Warzone because that sort of chaos is my jam. I’ve never been much for the tight 4v4 or 5v5 stuff, a little bit here and there I can do but for me it’s Big Team for Life, and Warzone was like Even Bigger Team so right up my alley. Ditto with Big Team Fiesta.
>
> And that’s the beauty of keeping Warzone separate from Arena; they can add all the overpowered weapons they want, all the experimental stuff they want, and it’d never once intrude upon the Arena side of things. You think it’s stupid, I think it’s one of the best ideas they had since Dominion.
That’s not what I meant, sorry. I find stupid the req system who aload a good player to use weapon level 5 whereas player in difficulties are stuck to level 4 or 3. I’m for equality, every body should have acces to the same level