[NEW] Rank structure perfection. Let's reward time and skill separately.

Just wanted to post a new concept for ranking systems in Halo 4. This one combines what players love about both Halo 3’s AND Halo Reach’s ranks.

What do players hate most about Halo 3’s ranks?

  • Players who don’t play enough never get a sense of completion out of their game.
  • Players who ARE good enough have nothing to do once they hit 50.

What I learned from this?
The ranks themselves should not be associated with Skill. And players need something more to do than just level up to max.

What do players hate the most about Halo Reach’s ranks?

  • Players don’t like having their trueskill reset every season.
  • Players feel like they get nothing for being better at the game.

What I learned from this?
Ranked Match results should permanently affect your record in some way. Good players want something to look at for their wins.

My suggestion:

Solvable - Completionism for less skilled players.
Maintain the Credit/Exp to level up your “Spartan Rank”. I think that gives casual players a definite feeling of completion when they eventually hit whatever the highest rank in the game is.

As per actual skill ranking, I suggest combining aspects of Halo 3 with Halo Reach. And here’s how. From the beginning, every player is playing to hit Level 50. And every 10 levels is a division that you are playing in against other players:

1-9 = Iron
10-19 = Bronze
20-29 = Silver
30-39 = Gold
40-49 = Onyx
50 = Spartan

Solvable - Players don’t want their Trueskill reset.
And what’s more is the system runs seasonal in the same way that Reach does. But let me explain before knocking it. Your Division is always determined at the BEGINNING of the season based on your current trueskill in whichever playlist it is. So first season EVERYONE plays as Iron, and can play against anybody in Iron, trueskill won’t affect your search criteria at all first season. Then what happens is at the start of second season, players start playing in Divisions based on their current trueskill in the playlist. As Trueskill rank will be permanent. Once in a division, you only play against others in your division until the end of the season (I.E. similar skill-leveled opponents).

Solvable - Players need more to do after hitting 50/Onyx.
So why bother with the seasonal setup? Well one thing does reset every season: Your placement WITHIN your division, basically which percentile within the division you are. At the start of a season, all players get a blank slate. But after a certain amount of games, the ranks actually start using a SECOND trueskill structure to determine what percentile you achieve WITHIN your division. (Basically allowing players to, while playing against only level 50s, push to become the level 50 OF the level 50s on a season-for-season basis. Best of the Best proven time and time again).

Finally I will move on to the user interface. When in a player’s service record, you can view what division they are in, their exact trueskill at that point in time, the trueskill WITHIN the division at that point in time. Details of their placement every season, and what division they will be in next season with their current Trueskill. This will allow players to easily access detailed season-by-season information. And see the numbers crunching their placement.

Solvable - Players want something to symbolize that they are good at the game.
Basically here is the last part of the new rank system I have come up with. What is seen on a player’s Gamertag-bar in the game lobby. And it is simple. Basically, firstly show everything you can see in Halo Reach, Emblem, Gamertag, Rank, and Nameplate. But conserve space just to the left of the rank for a permanent symbol showing the player’s crowning achievement in Ranked. Basically an image of their top division with the number of their top Trueskill level earned in that division superimposed on it rounded to the nearest 10 . Then just next to it, leave space for a “counter”. So basically what all top players should go for is available right there. An example for a somewhat successful player would be:

“An image of the Onyx Symbol, with the number 20 on it. With a little (x3) to imply that the player has been 20 trueskill Onyx 3 total seasons since the game’s release.”

Tl;Dr summary:
Unskilled players want completion?
Continue to use Credit/rank system from Reach.

Players don’t want to reset trueskill?
Division given at the start of each season based on a PERMANENT trueskill for the playlist(s)

Players need something to do after 50?
Seasons still exist allowing players to prove how good they are WITHIN the division based on their permanent Trueskill.

Players want something to show for it?
Read last paragraph before Tl;Dr summary.

just 1-50 please

bring backed ranked and social

no reach system determining ANY rank only earn credits to buy armor in that system

rank is determined by 1-50 system

I agree^.

Use Trueskill 1-50 for Rank.
Use CR for Armour.
Keep H3’s EXP for your Rank’s Grade.

Have all current Ranks shown on your Service Record.
Have your Highest Skill recorded.

Have a bunch of toggles you can enable for your service record.


I’m not an expert on this next part but I suspect a static rate for advancement would be better than Bungie’s H3 method, where it could take one game for six ranks or eighteen games for one rank.

Say 7 games won in any playlists before you lose 3?4, along with other conditions as they’re necessary? Maybe the win/loss numbers could be changed at different levels (from 40 to 45, say, would be different from 1-5)

> just 1-50 please
>
> bring backed ranked and social
>
> no reach system determining ANY rank only earn credits to buy armor in that system
>
> rank is determined by 1-50 system

That ONLY solves the problem for competitive players. All you do when you don’t give casuals something to go for is exclude them. That is why both need to exist. You also aren’t solving the problem of players who get bored after hitting 50 then have nothing to do but reset their rank and terrorize lower levels.

In other words you are being completely nostalgic, ignorant AND illogical all in one with your conclusion.

1-50 EXISTS in my system for all the players that only care about “Hit 50 then done”.

My system ALSO gives casual players, and competitive players something MORE to achieve. You have to consider EVERYONE not just one small population.

I don’t understand the logic of this system. At all.

Bring back Halo 2’s ranking system. Problem solved.

> I don’t understand the logic of this system. At all.

It’s simple:

1-50 comes back so skill counts for something.

Once you are level 50, you can continue to compete against OTHER level 50s to prove you are the best of the best.

“Ranks” aren’t determined by skill, but Division/placement is. BOTH appear on your nameplate (like level and rank in Halo 3, except rank is just time spent, and level is used to determine skill.)

Simple, easy.

It’s actually based almost entirely on Starcraft 2’s ranking system tbh.

> That ONLY solves the problem for competitive players.

I don’t think my adaptation does.

1-50, I think, is the way to go. I think that casual players could still benefit from 1-50 if it were to do with a set number of wins, not the progressively more difficult H3 method. If it stored how many wins you were on each time you signed off, casuals (if you mean limited time players, here) wouldn’t be harmed, and I don’t think the system is inherently bad for them.

Even so, casuals in all meanings of the word wouldn’t be overly harmed if the rate of promotion was stable and set, and the CoD EXP system unlocked customisation (fairly early for most of it, I think it’s unlocked too slowly in Reach).

I dislike the idea of divisions entirely, I’d never seen them prior to Reach and they are completely abstract and meaningless the way they are now.

> > That ONLY solves the problem for competitive players.
>
> I don’t think my adaptation does.
>
> 1-50, I think, is the way to go. I think that casual players could still benefit from 1-50 if it were to do with a set number of wins, not the progressively more difficult H3 method. If it stored how many wins you were on each time you signed off, casuals (if you mean limited time players, here) wouldn’t be harmed, and I don’t think the system is inherently bad for them.
>
> Even so, casuals in all meanings of the word wouldn’t be overly harmed if the rate of promotion was stable and set, and the CoD EXP system unlocked customisation (fairly early for most of it, I think it’s unlocked too slowly in Reach).
>
> I dislike the idea of divisions entirely, I’d never seen them prior to Reach and they are completely abstract and meaningless the way they are now.

Well, divisions in this case would basically serve the same purpose as “Similar skill searching” in Halo 2/3. Basically, if your skill level is, say, 37 that means you are in Gold division, and are being paired up against players between level 30 and 39. Which basically divides the community the same way but creates a stable “House” for players of similar skill as opposed to a constantly shifting and changing one.

I have to admit I do like the idea of having set mathematical methods of attaining each specific level up for your global rank/division. But if you read into my idea for “Seasons” I think Halo 3’s Trueskill would be more reliable for the SECOND set of rank (the one specifically within your division).

> just 1-50 please
>
> bring backed ranked and social
>
> no reach system determining ANY rank only earn credits to buy armor in that system
>
> rank is determined by 1-50 system

I agree.

I like my rank being permanent and associated with skill. The exp tiers within the ranks is briliant as well. I hate arena in reach and never played it past the beta. It’s nothing even close to satisfying.

Halo 3 ALMOST got the ranking down corretly, but instead of one point for every win, you should get a point for every kill, plus extra points for like, bomb plant or captureing the flag.

but i like halo reaches idea od the credits, aslong as your not buying armor, but the armor effects, and the voices, sure do that, i want to gain my armor through achievvements again…sad face.

> > just 1-50 please
> >
> > bring backed ranked and social
> >
> > no reach system determining ANY rank only earn credits to buy armor in that system
> >
> > rank is determined by 1-50 system
>
> I agree.
>
> I like my rank being permanent and associated with skill. The exp tiers within the ranks is briliant as well. I hate arena in reach and never played it past the beta. It’s nothing even close to satisfying.

This system HAS permanent skill associated rank (Division) AND tiers within ranks (Seasonal). You are obviously not reading the OP.

XoX insane XoX:
You are asking me to sift through 2-3 months’ worth of Forum pages to find a link? Maybe if the website featured the ability to search for threads you’ve posted in specifically I might be able to find it. But it’s gotta be at least a hundred pages back by now.

Dude, i think that this system would bring back the same problems as the halo 3 system, which is fine if ur good at the game when it comes out. But if you’ve just come to halo then, just like halo 3, you’ll find problems with getting stuck at certain levels and 50’s/spartains will complain that they can’t play with their friends who might not be good at the game (ecspecially if you only pit them against other 50’s). At least XoX InSaN3 XoX’s system solves these problems if you read it properly and encourages team play (which is what halo is about in my opinion).

It even encourages teams to fight for, or to keep their place at the top of a ‘tier’ therefore adding a purpose for higher level players to play on


However, as long as we agree on a stable and secure system, that’s fine by me and should be fine for everyone.

so stop fighting ladies!

XoX Insane XoX: Nevermind, it does exist, I just never noticed it before xD

Here: http://halo.xbox.com/forums/games/f/7/t/9355.aspx

> Dude, i think that this system would bring back the same problems as the halo 3 system, which is fine if ur good at the game when it comes out. But if you’ve just come to halo then, just like halo 3, you’ll find problems with getting stuck at certain levels and 50’s/spartains will complain that they can’t play with their friends who might not be good at the game (ecspecially if you only pit them against other 50’s). At least XoX InSaN3 XoX’s system solves these problems if you read it properly and encourages team play (which is what halo is about in my opinion).
>
> It even encourages teams to fight for, or to keep their place at the top of a ‘tier’ therefore adding a purpose for higher level players to play on
>
> ------------------------------
>
> However, as long as we agree on a stable and secure system, that’s fine by me and should be fine for everyone.
>
> so stop fighting ladies!

ChainSmokingBob, and I have actually been discussing that. We have agreed on his suggestion that the Division ranks be based off a more Halo 2-style predictable, and reliable mathematical system set for each separate rank to determine if you rank up or down. So it isn’t like Trueskill where you can get locked up in a rank/division.

But I think the inter-division placements should be based on Trueskill tbh, since they aren’t part of your permanent 1-50 and get reset for seasons to come back without disrupting competitive play. Which will actually allow players who hit 50 to keep working towards something, adding more Onyx 50 medals to their nameplate.

Hmm, your other thread makes it a lot simpler and easier to understand, and I quite like that one as well.

> Hmm, your other thread makes it a lot simpler and easier to understand, and I quite like that one as well.

Oh wait, shoot that’s not the one I was thinking of…

That was the first one I made. I didn’t stick with it because there was no room for casual play, or for replay value.

http://halo.xbox.com/forums/games/f/7/t/13952.aspx
THIS is the old version of this one. With the divisions and such.

Hmm.

Adding divisions makes it a bit too much for me to handle, since I haven’t played Arena (some matches, sure, but for no purpose) and don’t really understand how it works.

I believe that your first thread is brilliant for fixing the H3 system, but that you’re right and that either we need an alternative system to appease casuals (running this system alongside a CoD-esque system for them) or to adapt a new one.

I personally think that running yours alongside an EXP system (to reward playing, though it wouldn’t do your skill rank but your armour rank) AND having K/D OR W/L (Highest ranks require some of both, perhaps?) both as a requirement for ranking up would be the best (at the moment anyway). Casuals could focus on their K/D rather than teamwork (this is easier to increase than W/L, I believe, because it’s a personal thing) as would some higher players (difference in playstyle).

I’m sorry if that makes no sense, lots of brackets for what time it is…

Either way, I must apologise since I’m off to bed (5:11AM Wednesday morning here), and thanks for the discussion, since it was quite interesting : )

Later man : )

Nahh it made alot of sense. Anyway. thanks for the input.

To clarify on divisions, they won’t work anything like Arena. Rather they will work like Halo 3 ranks.

Where 1-9 in 2 was, say Recruit. In this it would be Iron.

10-19 was Liutenant In this it’s Bronze.

20-29 was Captain. In this it’s Silver.

30-39 was Commander. In this it’s Gold.

40-49 was Brigadier, in this it’s Onyx.

50 high was General, in this it’s Spartan or something cool.

I know I simplified it. But that’s what I mean. Oh, and basically every season, you ONLY play against players in your division, or the division of the highest player in your party. So if your party has an Onyx (40-49) as your highest rank, your party will get matched up against ONLY parties that also have an Onyx as their highest rank. Kind of like how in Halo 3 you only got matched against players within 5 levels of you.

> > Dude, i think that this system would bring back the same problems as the halo 3 system, which is fine if ur good at the game when it comes out. But if you’ve just come to halo then, just like halo 3, you’ll find problems with getting stuck at certain levels and 50’s/spartains will complain that they can’t play with their friends who might not be good at the game (ecspecially if you only pit them against other 50’s). At least XoX InSaN3 XoX’s system solves these problems if you read it properly and encourages team play (which is what halo is about in my opinion).
> >
> > It even encourages teams to fight for, or to keep their place at the top of a ‘tier’ therefore adding a purpose for higher level players to play on
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > However, as long as we agree on a stable and secure system, that’s fine by me and should be fine for everyone.
> >
> > so stop fighting ladies!
>
> ChainSmokingBob, and I have actually been discussing that. We have agreed on his suggestion that the Division ranks be based off a more Halo 2-style predictable, and reliable mathematical system set for each separate rank to determine if you rank up or down. So it isn’t like Trueskill where you can get locked up in a rank/division.
>
> But I think the inter-division placements should be based on Trueskill tbh, since they aren’t part of your permanent 1-50 and get reset for seasons to come back without disrupting competitive play. Which will actually allow players who hit 50 to keep working towards something, adding more Onyx 50 medals to their nameplate.

Both systems are good depending on how you look a it, however i believe that a system that tells you that you’re at the top of your ladder would be a bit of a better indication of how good a player is than a system that tells you how many 50’s you’ve got (assuming you’ve got 50’s)

Plus XoX InSaN3 XoX’s system would constantly update and you will actually be able to see yourself moving up through the ladder

I don’t mean to take sides, but insane’s system would be a lot easier to display on the service record as-well once the game is out for a couple of years because 343 would have to display x2 Iron, x4 Bronze, x1 Silver… (assuming that your seasons would be rather short)

however insane’s system would just say something like this guy’s highest placement is 6th in the Onyx Ladder of Team Slayer.


sorry if i’ve got anything wrong with any of these posts but in my personal opinion both systems are in some ways the same but ultimatly different, why don’t you both work together instead of competing for the credit. after all, your both trying to make things better for the halo community :slight_smile: