New maps! We need them! (links included)

Hello, everyone. (yes, there is a TL;DR)

This thread suggests an alternative approach to improving the current state of matchmaking. I feel that the importance of maps is underestimated in these forums. I will try to explain why we need better maps.

The reason why we need better maps is because a map decides HALF of what a game plays like. The other half is decided by the sandbox and gametype. A map can be so good, that it will make people forget about any issues that can be found in the sandbox.
Two examples: A map that has most encounters in medium range will essentially nerf the DMR, and a map that has a lot of flanking routes and few corners will nerf the boltshot.

Another thing a map can fix is the spawns; spawns are vital to the way a game plays. Spawns should be placed so that the player or team that just died is at a disadvantage, and that isn’t always the case for current matchmaking.

The ones in matchmaking right now just aren’t good enough when you compare them to some of the community maps that are already starting to appear.

  • Almost all of them are just too large for the amount of players that play on them. This results in players more rarely running into eachother. It also ensures that most encounters are held at long range, something that was typical of big team battle in previous halos. What’s worse is that fighting at long range simply isn’t fun (imo), because of the bounce mechanic. Also, because finding eachother is more difficult, people tend to sit back at a vantage point and watch the map for enemies, because they don’t want to run around endlessly without finding someone, and getting them out in the open is easy with the DMR. In other words, large maps slow down gameplay and encourage this kind of camping.
    The opposite effect is achieved as well sometimes: an encounter is had in one specific area, teammates rush in to help. After everyone dies, people rush back to the hotspot, but both teams do so, and because of the slow feedback of knowing the enemy’s position because of the large map and the long time it takes people to get there, eventually everyone rushes that same place of the map during the rest of the match because they know or think the enemy is there and that will speed up the game. (if that made any sense). This is especially true with the forerunner artifact house on Complex.

This is also one of the reasons everyone votes for Haven: it’s the only small, symmetrical map in Halo 4. Small, symmetrical maps are almost a definition of Halo: an arena shooter.

  • Some are more easily broken by jetpack than others. Especially Abandoned: That map greatly revolves around top mid control. Jetpackers can easily go top mid from all directions, completely bypassing the routes that are covered by a map setup, surprise the enemy team and easily gain top control. Just because they selected jetpack.

  • The look of the map sometimes gains priority over gameplay! Solace in perticular is symmetrical, yet the bases are asymmetrical. The base with the crates is much easier to defend imo, having all of those crates as cover. Not to mention Solace Oddball: you can just take the oddball and hide at the edge of the map in your base, with the crates providing plenty of cover while your team picks off intruders. And when they do completely overpower you, you can throw it off the map. Jungle base has neither of these features. Jungle base also has dirt hallways, which interfere with grenade throwing.

From now on, all maps added to matchmaking should be the small, symmetrical type of map that is typical of Halo. Right around the size of Haven would be ideal.

The first map that always comes to mind when I mean small and symmetrical is Midship/Heretic.
It was very small: you could litterally crossmap and it would feel like medium to long range. On Halo 4 complex, shooting from the central structure to either of the team’s spawns already feels like crossmapping, distance-wise.
Midship was also very open, yet you could always get to cover in time. Unless of course, you ran bottom or top mid like an idiot.
Midship also had clearly defined positions of power: the bases, the towers. Jetpack can’t even break midship because of the openness and how top mid is easily accessible without it. Maps like midship are just so good that it still plays nice with a flawed sandbox.

Other remakes that would play fantastically on Halo 4: Lockout/Blackout, The Pit, Citadel, Warlock, Foundation…

Community maps that are comfirmed to play fantastically: Simplex, Lotus, Station 9, … Links follow in the next post.

And what happened to Relay?! Relay is quite large, but it still looks like one of the better maps on the disc, yet 343i doesn’t put it in matchmaking?! incomprehensible.

TL; DR Just adding all of the maps above as alternatives for the current maps would already make Halo 4 matchmaking as epic as it should be.

A counterargument might be “but then we have way too many maps to memorise!”. That may be true, but Halo 4 holds your hand when it comes down to getting to know maps. Halo 4 maps, even the current maps in matchmaking, have a good flow. On top of that, all power weapons are simply indicated in your HUD. The time it takes to learn a map on Halo 4 is very short. And that will especially be the case for the maps I mentioned, as they have a simple layout.

What are your thoughts on this?

Epic remakes:
Wizard/Warlock
Lockout/Blackout
Narrows
The Pit

Custom maps:
Simplex
Cella (inspired by Guardian)
Lotus
Station 9
Schism

343i maps:

Relay!

PS: I’ve spent an hour typing this, and it gets ignored. Wow.

Very good thread.

That happens though. Pretty much every good, well thought out constructive thread is overlooked for “no moar boltshot” or “x thing is broken/OP/unbalanced”.

Give me a second to read through this (I was actually contemplating making this thread myself, glad I don’t have too.)

Lol why is there no responses to this? This is really good Btw.

Perhaps some of the upcoming DLC will harken back to arena style (extremely doubt it, though).

Luckily, these kinds of maps are fairly easy to make in Forge and I assume community and 343 created maps will be added eventually.

I miss with all my heart Halo 2’s Foundation.

I would love to see those old maps on Halo 4. But there’s a point where originality needs to step in. I rather see more original maps that play as WELL as midship and lockout. I believe that Halo 4 needs original maps that define it. RIght now I despise Abandon with all my heart, I really do. I can’t stand complex and I quit when DLC is chosen. Haven is by far my favorite map on this game. Ragnarok is a close second but, again, that’s a remake.

> The reason why we need better maps is because a map decides HALF of what a game plays like. <mark>The other half is decided by the sandbox</mark> and gametype. A map can be so good, that it will make people forget about any issues that can be found in the sandbox.
> Two examples: A map that has most encounters in medium range will essentially nerf the DMR, and a map that has a lot of flanking routes and few corners will nerf the boltshot.

A half plus a half equals a whole. Even if more better/maps solves mm balance, “sandbox” is the magic word to solve custom games, which is still a huge problem right now.

> Lol why is there no responses to this? This is really good Btw.

probably because of what SilentA98 above you said: it gets pushed down by 50 versions of the same thread about how this is OP etc, without actually explaining why.

Thing is, their titles are probably more attractive to click on because of how people like to disprove others if they see a title they don’t agree with. Others are just misleading.

I wish I could make such titles…

An hour for so little? No way. More like 10 minutes.

And yes, I agree. Many of the current Halo 4 maps have long ranges of sights and quite a few places of “No cover”. This encourages either spawn-camping (By sitting behind rocks with DMR’s) or…sitting in one area and constantly killing.

The current maps are sooooo dang focused on dynamic spawns. Like Exile; The lack of symmetry on most maps does this, and it makes the game so frustrating. Oh, managed to mush every single enemy into one area? They’ll spawn behind you unless you occupy your behind.

Nearly every map has this problem except Valhalla, which is good because of this: It has 2 good control areas (Pelican and Turret Hill) along with 1 risky, but if you have it, the game will win, area to control (Top Middle).

To fix it, we need more symmetrical maps.

:slight_smile:

And also, many times I create a well written post only to have nobody post on it in favor of the 1 line “This gun sucks” post which are repeated over and over.

agree 100%

I’d say Meltdown, Exile and Wreckage are the best sort of large maps. Meltdown has a great amount of routes, caves and roads to create a vehicle playground, plus enough room for infantry to run around.

Ragnarok on the other hand only caters to a frustrating amount of camping, dull long range encounters and DMR kids. It’s just too open.

We need more maps like Avalanche, Sandtrap or even Terminal and Headlong.

There is also an incredible lack of arena-style 4v4s. I don’t play 4v4, but I can still tell that we need more.

Testify

> Perhaps some of the upcoming DLC will harken back to arena style (extremely doubt it, though).
>
> Luckily, these kinds of maps are fairly easy to make in Forge and I assume community and 343 created maps will be added eventually.
>
> I miss with all my heart Halo 2’s Foundation.

I definately hope so.

I made this thread to point out to 343i how straightforward it is to greatly improve matchmaking from its current state. matchmaking can only improve from a wider variety of maps.

A great bonus here is how playtesting will take less time, because these maps are known by the community to produce great gameplay. Especially map remakes; we all know the map layout works, all that needs to be tested are maybe compatibililty with Halo 4’s spawn system (if not: static spawns ftw) and possible ways to glitch through/escape the map. And that’s it!

I believe adding maps to matchmaking has one of the highest ‘improvement to MM/ time and effort invested’ ratios of all suggested improvements out there.

> I would love to see those old maps on Halo 4. But there’s a point where originality needs to step in. I rather see more original maps that play as WELL as midship and lockout. I believe that Halo 4 needs original maps that define it. RIght now I despise Abandon with all my heart, I really do. I can’t stand complex and I quit when DLC is chosen. Haven is by far my favorite map on this game. Ragnarok is a close second but, again, that’s a remake.

I assume that the worst case scenario is happening: that the 343i map developers keep overestimating Halo 4’s faster gameplay compared to other Halo games and therefore certainly won’t make an entire map pack with 3 small 4v4 arena maps.

It is likely that they still believe their 4v4 maps to be the right size, while in fact they are best suited for 6v6. I don’t think they are going to realise any time soon that it should have been small maps from the start.

Yes, you can get around the map faster. So yes, you can sprint back to where you died in no-time. But that is the SPAWN TIME’s fault.

343i wanted instant spawns, they realised this meant that people could just rush to where they died, so they had to make the maps bigger. And it worked: They replaced the time you were watching your screen, pondering over your mistakes with the time needed to mindlessly rush back to the battlefield.

Trying to find this balance, however, 343i completely screwed up both the maps AND the spawn system. The maps are now too big, sometimes I STILL finish off the guy who killed me myself, and a dead team now always spawns completely away from the enemy team, nullifying any map positioning advantage the superior team may have had.

So yeah, unless 343i realises just how big of an impact instant spawns had on the way Halo plays, and decide to return to 5 second spawns, I don’t think they will be making the small, symmetrical maps we need for us.

It’s the community. 343i should be more involved with the community and acknowledge that there are some great maps out there, and if they are good enough, just implement them in matchmaking. The MLG community, for example, produced the only balanced and competitively fun version of Reach (imo), and now they are doing it again for Halo 4. They introduce the best custom maps i’ve ever seen, and I never got/ get to play on them without being stomped on by pros.

I agree with you & I would also add that I think all the old maps should be added, since this isnt the first Halo title released the maps from CE,1,2,3 & maybe ODST/Reach could be added as well. I’d love to have Sidewinder back…

updated OP and added links to the maps for the lazy guys. Most have the guy whose fileshare you can download it from in the description.

Didn’t know about Cella, looks promising. Thanks OP, I would “Thank” you if the button actually worked for me.

Didn’t 343i say they’re working on getting community maps into matchmaking sometime during the January updates? Perhaps alongside the improved Slayer Pro (which smaller, community maps could work nicely for).

And I do agree that some of the map are a bit awkward for the number they’re made for. I still can’t stand Complex as 4v4. So much of the map is u used.

> I’d say Meltdown, Exile and Wreckage are the best sort of large maps. Meltdown has a great amount of routes, caves and roads to create a vehicle playground, plus enough room for infantry to run around.
>
> Ragnarok on the other hand only caters to a frustrating amount of camping, dull long range encounters and DMR kids. It’s just too open.
>
> We need more maps like Avalanche, Sandtrap or even Terminal and Headlong.
>
> There is also an incredible lack of arena-style 4v4s. I don’t play 4v4, but I can still tell that we need more.

In general, I wouldn’t remake any Halo 3 BTB maps because of the large difference between the Halo 3 BR and the Halo 4 DMR.

Halo 3 Sandtrap was very open, but you could easily survive running in plain sight because of its huge size. You didn’t have to worry about getting picked on from all places at once. It took an entire clip of BR ammo to take out somebody half across the map when standing still. The spread and bullet travel time were ridiculous at longer ranges.

In Halo 4, you would be easily able to 5-shot everyone with the DMR half across the map. In other words, you wouldn’t be able to set a foot outside of the closed structures. It would become a very slow match compared to what we had on Halo 3.

Much like Valhalla > Ragnarok. Valhalla was one of the best btb maps in Halo 3. It was quite open, though you rarely got 5-shot on that map because of the BR range. That meant that if you controlled top mid, you wouldn’t be able to rain death upon the enemy team’s base from your comfortable position. Halo 4’s Ragnarok plays noticeably different. Now it’s all about securing the power positions and raining death upon your opponents with just your head sticking out. Luckily, they gave us a mantis to be able to break a setup like that, but that kind of gameplay is still 70% of all matches.

In other words: if you bring in a BTB map from any other Halo, it will most likely play very differently because of the insane range and killtime of the DMR. Ragnarok confirms that gameplay will be slowed down, and vehicles won’t play the same role they did in Halo 3 because of them being nerfed.