Nerfing the starting weapon every new release is not the answer to Sandbox balance

Every single Halo the starting weapons(pistol,AR,BR,DMR) have been getting nerfed and as a result kill times have been getting longer. Halo NEEDS a versatile starting weapon like the CE pistol or BR in order for gameplay to balance out so kill times are not too long. In Reach there are countless factors that contribute to slower kill times, but the DMR is the main cause. If the starting weapon is not versatile and the most powerful when used to its full potential, then as we see in Reach power weapons dominate the game. Whoever gets these power weapons is sure to dominate the game as beating them with the DMR is very hard especially with the random bloom factor and the fact that it is 5-shot. The sniper rifle and rocket launcher are now OP as they are very hard to take down with the weaker starting weapon the DMR is.

Im all for Sandbox balance but the starting weapon needs to be reliable and have a high-skill cap in order for balanced and competitve gameplay. As of right now the 5-shot combined with the erratic bloom is just overkill and it makes gameplay boring and not competitve. When the starting weapons are too weak and unreliable as in the case of the DMR power weapons dominate the game and teamwork much overshadows the need for individual skill. This was not the casein CE+H2 where individual skill and teamwork balanced each other out perfectly much to do with the starting weapons. Nobody wants to have to have a power weapon in their hands to get kills and multi-kills its just not fun for the rest of the players who dont have power weapons, and are defenseless against them with the DMR unless they teamshot.

TLDR: Weaker starting weapons like the DMR make for slower kill times and thus more boring gameplay unless you posess a power weapon. Power weapons now dominate the game and teamwork much overshadows individual skill which was not the case in CE+H2 where there was a perfect balance. The starting weapons need to have high skill caps like the CE pistol and H2 BR which were versatile and allowed for a jack of all trades weapon while not overpowering the rest. The answer to Sandbox balancing is not to nerf the starting weapon every new release but to make the rest of the Sandbox more potent at their niches and for more mid-range weapons to be introduced to the Sandbox. Halo NEEDS a jack of all trades weapon that is the best when used to its full potential in order for competitive and balanced gameplay to exist.

It’s the same thing with Movement speed and Jumping height.

More Realistic Game =/= Better Game

Aside from jump height this game is much closer to Reach, you can have pistol starts, and the pistol is the most powerful it’s been since Halo 1.

It’s an evolving formula, everything can’t be perfect, Halo 2 is a perfect example.

I agree with this. A power weapon is there to give you an advantage only in certain situations, and then only if used right. At all other times, it should be a duel between standard weapons and power weapons where the standard weapon can be used to consistently punish people who misuse the power weapon.

Having weaker standard weapons just pushes the power weapon users into a comfortable spot, where they can keep trying even if they are, for example, badly using a sniper at close range.

All weapons should be able to kill fast. When you make people start with slow killing weapons, and force them to seek fast killing weapons the game turns into who gets what weapon first instead of who out skilled who.

Power weapons need to be one of the following:
-Easy to use but with draw backs. Rocket launcher and Shotgun for example. Rockets are easy to obtain kills at close-medium range but projectiles are slow which makes it fairly useless at longer ranges. Shotguns are a 1hit kill at close range but do no damage at medium-long range.
-Medium skill but with different attributes. H1 Plasma Rifle and Needlers for example. H1 Plasma Rifle has a medium skill required to land shots but instead of just doing normal damage like a pistol or a rifle, it stuns enemies, does heaps of damage to shields but a low amount to health. Needlers require some leading but do a low amount of damage to health, but if enough hit the target explodes.
-Hard to use but with perks. Sniper Rifle and Grenade Launcher for example. Snipe should be hard to use but can allow for instant kills at all distances. Grenade launcher is pretty hard but can kill people around corners.

The power weapons in Reach in comparison to starting weapons are not only easy to use, but do too much damage in comparison as well. To fix this we need faster killing starting weapons.

Picking up an item should never guarantee success, it should help slightly, but not give you a free ride.

Well I suppose I should be content with you not making the ridiculous claim of “faster game speed” = “more competitive,” but I disagree that “slower gameplay” = “more boring experience”. In my opinion that is certainly not the case and I do not even know if Reach features a “slower gameplay” than previous editions of halo. And in my opinion I think having the same ritualized combat that results from widespread BR usage is indeed quite boring.

If anything, it seems as if rockets and the like spawn times being extended (to limit their usage) would appease your concerns.

But before I forget weapon balance in Halo CE and Halo 2 was non existent. It is simply absurd that you would suggest those two games as an example for ideal weapon vs weapon conditions.

> The power weapons in Reach in comparison to starting weapons are not only easy to use, but do too much damage in comparison as well. To fix this we need faster killing starting weapons.
>
> Picking up an item should never guarantee success, it should help slightly, but not give you a free ride.

They’re easy to use and do plenty of damage, but that’s why they’re called power-weapons.

In relation to this issue I don’t think having “faster killing starting weapons” is the way to go .It sounds like you’re going around lone wolfing it in a Team playlist. If you know your opponent has rockets stay as far back as possible and stick together. That way you can kill the power weapon user fast. If you think about it, each teammate can fire 2 bullets in less than a second, and if you use teamwork and fire relatively simultaneously you guys can put roughly 8 bullets into him every a second. Use grenades and he doesn’t stand a chance. Sniper, get up close and do the same thing.

There’s been plenty of times when a good team has gotten a power-weapon off me, and vise versa. Though, I do admit power-weapons seem to be more the center of attention in Reach than in Halo 3. Some games people never used power-weapons, specifically games where the BR was the starting weapon, but power weapons are meant to be objects of desire, and if your choosing your starting weapon over a power-weapon you know there’s a problem.

I think it’s fine the way it is. They don’t “guarantee success”, but they do give you an excellence chance of getting a kill. Though, it is made tougher when AAs are thrown in. This goes back to teamwork. If you know your opponent has rockets tell everyone to switch to AL and AL it out. In this case the rockets should never get a kill.

Anyway, I wouldn’t mind faster kill times over all the weapons, but not just with the starting weapon.

Don’t lecture me on team work bud.

There was still LOADs of team work in H1 and H2 which both had faster killtimes on utility weapons. Reach just forces team work which is not fun, you shouldn’t HAVE to be next to a team mate to get a kill.

> Don’t lecture me on team work bud.
>
> There was still LOADs of team work in H1 and H2 which both had faster killtimes on utility weapons. Reach just forces team work which is not fun, you shouldn’t HAVE to be next to a team mate to get a kill.

And you don’t have to. Though, facing a power-weapon user alone should result in you being killed. That’s an idiotic play, and in previous games it would of likely led to your death as well.

In H1 and H2 yes you are correct, but if the power weapon user made a mistake he could be killed. For example if you missed a rocket, a lot of the time you would be killed before you could fire another, which is damn fair enough.

In Reach you can fire one rocket, miss completely, fire another and kill him and still have half shields. Its just not balanced.

Yes you are right though, engaging a power weapon holder by yourself is a stupid move, but none the less you should have a bit more of a chance.

If you played H1 and H2 you would know the enjoyment and balance that I am talking about. H3 was missing it, and Reach is missing it even more. You only feel in control if you have a power weapon, in the previous games you could always stand a chance if your aim was on, it gave you a feeling of control whatever the situation

> In H1 and H2 yes you are correct, but if the power weapon user made a mistake he could be killed. For example if you missed a rocket, a lot of the time you would be killed before you could fire another, which is damn fair enough.
>
> In Reach you can fire one rocket, miss completely, fire another and kill him and still have half shields. Its just not balanced.
>
> Yes you are right though, engaging a power weapon holder by yourself is a stupid move, but none the less you should have a bit more of a chance.
>
> If you played H1 and H2 you would know the enjoyment and balance than I am talking about. H3 was missing it, and Reach is missing it even more. You only feel in control if you have a power weapon, in the previous games you could always stand a chance if your aim was on, it gave you a feeling of control whatever the situation

I still play Halo 1 locally and Halo 2 online over Xlinkai and I feel quite content with my DMR. If a player screws up with rockets (missing the first shot) I can usually kill him with my DMR. Perhaps you need to work on your DMRing skills? It’s made especially easy if you have grenades. They’re quite powerful you know.

Yeah resort to insulting my ability, you would think that if I had trouble in reach I would have trouble in all of the other games… If you can’t realize that the DMR is the slowest utility weapon yet then i don’t know what to say really.

> Yeah resort to insulting my ability, you would think that if I had trouble in reach I would have trouble in all of the other games… If you can’t realize that the DMR is the slowest utility weapon yet then i don’t know what to say really.

Just because you’re godly at Halo 1, doesn’t mean you’re gonna be godly at Halo 2, and just because you’re godly at Halo 2 doesn’t mean you’re gonna be godly at Halo 3. You get where I’m going with this? If you’re having trouble in Reach and not in Halo 3 that’s quite normal. They’re different games. I often got messages on XBL stating how godly my BR was in Halo 3. It doesn’t happen in Reach. Fact is I’m not quite as good at Reach as I was at Halo 3… yet ;]

I never said the DMR is the “slowest utility weapon yet”. You pulled that one out of your -Yoink-. What I did say was that the DMR isn’t useless against power-weapons. Which is what you’re implying. In combination with grenades the DMR is extremely effective.

I never said I was godly at any of them, but skill is definitely transferable. Look who cares about me, lets talk about the perfect player, their aim is 100% perfect, like an aim bot or something. In H1 they are going to destroy even if they only use the utility weapon (which is how it should be, a guy with perfect aim should be rewarded), in H2 they will also do very well. In H3 they will do decent. In Reach they will be good, but at the end of the day the people who have the pick ups are going to beat them a lot.

Also I know you didn’t say it was the slowest, I did…:S Misread that part?
And yes a grenade and a headshot works wonders, but that’s only if they are stupid enough to stand right on your grenade, and stupid enough not to shoot at you while you’re throwing it, and if you actually have a grenade in the first place…

I’m just saying that we need a speed more like H2 or H1 even. It has been getting slower and slower every game and IMO each game has been worse and worse.

> I never said I was godly at any of them, but skill is definitely transferable. Look who cares about me, lets talk about the perfect player, their aim is 100% perfect, like an aim bot or something. In H1 they are going to destroy even if they only use the utility weapon (which is how it should be, a guy with perfect aim should be rewarded), in H2 they will also do very well. In H3 they will do decent. In Reach they will be good, but at the end of the day the people who have the pick ups are going to beat them a lot.
>
> Also I know you didn’t say it was the slowest, I did…:S Misread that part?
> And yes a grenade and a headshot works wonders, but that’s only if they are stupid enough to stand right on your grenade, and stupid enough not to shoot at you while you’re throwing it, and if you actually have a grenade in the first place…
>
> I’m just saying that we need a speed more like H2 or H1 even. It has been getting slower and slower every game and IMO each game has been worse and worse.

It does feel like kill times have been getting longer. I agree with that, and I’d appreciate it if overall kill times were shorter.

If you play smart, pickups won’t always destroy you. Use jetpack when someone has rockets and if you have an aimbot I bet you’d kill him no problems. Regardless, pickups are meant to give you an advantage. If you could just easily destroy someone who has a pickup with your starting weapon what’s the point of controlling 'em?

If you and your opponent can see each other and are within firing range of one another you generally don’t throw grenades. Try your best to predict their movement and place one where you think they’ll go before you come face to face with him. You don’t just plonk one at their feet and hope they stay there.

I agree with you completely. The starting weapon should be effective at all ranges. Having a versatile starting weapon makes the entire game better. Bad spawns aren’t nearly as bad because your weapon gives you an option to fight your way out of it. Being able to move around the map by yourself without feeling completely helpless makes the game much more enjoyable when you go into MM by yourself.

Bungie keeps making the starting weapon in each game less and less reliable so the casual gamers (which are the majority of gamers) will stop getting raped by good players, and can actually stand a chance. That way, the game is more appealing to the majority and Bungie will obtain more money. That’s how I see it, at least.

> I agree with you completely. The starting weapon should be effective at all ranges. Having a versatile starting weapon makes the entire game better. Bad spawns aren’t nearly as bad because your weapon gives you an option to fight your way out of it. Being able to move around the map by yourself without feeling completely helpless makes the game much more enjoyable when you go into MM by yourself.

The starting weapon in competitve playlists shouldnt only be versatile, it should be one of the best weapons if used to its full potential as the CE magnum and H2 Br were. It should be able to kill every weapon at any range but it shouldnt be the best at every niche except mid-range. As it is now power weapons destroy the DMR at their niches especially when combined with AA’s like sprint that make the sword and shotgun OP at close range. Same with the sniper which is really easy to use now and when combined with camo is nearly unstoppable and unbalanced.

Nerfing the starting weapons only makes kill times longer and power weapons dominate the game which is the case with Reach. If they wanted to balance the Sandbox out they should of make all weapons kill faster not bring down the whole pace of the game by nerfing the starting weapons. Another thing that is long overdue for the Halo series would be more mid-range weapons readily available on the map to balance out the mid-range dominance the CE pistol, Br, and now DMR have always have.

There is no slowing or nerfing of that starting in weapons. Nor is the DMR nerfed in comparison to the BR.

The DMR can shoot 5 individual bullets with 5 shots in the same time it takes the BR to expel all 12 bullets from 4 shots. At shotgun range or less, that’s equal kill time.
At long range, a DMR will shoot 5 accurate shots in the same time it takes the BR to land enough bullets to get a kill from 7 to 12 (or more) bursts.

Since the Pistol actually got more accurate and shoots faster, I’d say that’s a buff, not nerf.
Since the AR maintained its ROF and damage per bullet but can easily have its spread controlled, chalk that up to a slight buff.
The PR was converted to the PRi. I really don’t know if this one is equal, less or more than the PR from 3. They both have their use.
The Plasma Pistol had its damage per hit and ROF increased. Sure it takes longer to charge a homing shot, but that shot is faster and tracks better than 3’s… that’s another buff.
The BR hasn’t changed in kill times across the range for accurate shooting. Instead of 12 bullets requiring a kill, 5 are now needed. Does damage to vehicles. and is hitscan. I’m tempted to call that a buff, if only slight.
The Carbine to Needle Rifle. The NR fires more slowly than the Carbine, but it fires 2 accurate shots per 1 DMR shot. It doesn’t damage health or vehicles. I don’t know about a buff or a nerf, but that there is your “competitive” weapon for Reach if there was one.

So to conclude, starting weapons haven’t been nerfed. Kill times haven’t changed… unless you put the AAs into the equation. But they can speed up or extend kill times, so whatever :wink:

I’d like to point out about NERFING. Nerf swords and bats are useless for actual use in a fight or game. If a weapon has been “weakened” but not rendered useless, that is called a debuff and is balancing. If a weapon/tactic has been rendered all but useless (meaning it might look good in your hand), than that’s a nerfing.

Don’t exaggerate. I leads to overexaggerating and that’s redundant.

> There is no slowing or nerfing of that starting in weapons. Nor is the DMR nerfed in comparison to the BR.
>
> The DMR can shoot 5 individual bullets with 5 shots in the same time it takes the BR to expel all 12 bullets from 4 shots. At shotgun range or less, that’s equal kill time.
> At long range, a DMR will shoot 5 accurate shots in the same time it takes the BR to land enough bullets to get a kill from 7 to 12 (or more) bursts.
>
> Since the Pistol actually got more accurate and shoots faster, I’d say that’s a buff, not nerf.
> Since the AR maintained its ROF and damage per bullet but can easily have its spread controlled, chalk that up to a slight buff.
> The PR was converted to the PRi. I really don’t know if this one is equal, less or more than the PR from 3. They both have their use.
> The Plasma Pistol had its damage per hit and ROF increased. Sure it takes longer to charge a homing shot, but that shot is faster and tracks better than 3’s… that’s another buff.
> The BR hasn’t changed in kill times across the range for accurate shooting. Instead of 12 bullets requiring a kill, 5 are now needed. Does damage to vehicles. and is hitscan. I’m tempted to call that a buff, if only slight.
> The Carbine to Needle Rifle. The NR fires more slowly than the Carbine, but it fires 2 accurate shots per 1 DMR shot. It doesn’t damage health or vehicles. I don’t know about a buff or a nerf, but that there is your “competitive” weapon for Reach if there was one.
>
>
> So to conclude, starting weapons haven’t been nerfed. Kill times haven’t changed… unless you put the AAs into the equation. But they can speed up or extend kill times, so whatever :wink:
>
> I’d like to point out about NERFING. Nerf swords and bats are useless for actual use in a fight or game. If a weapon has been “weakened” but not rendered useless, that is called a debuff and is balancing. If a weapon/tactic has been rendered all but useless (meaning it might look good in your hand), than that’s a nerfing.
>
> Don’t exaggerate. I leads to overexaggerating and that’s redundant.

Your trying to compare them like both are consistent weapons where if you spam the DMR it will not take 5 shots to kill the enemy unless you get lucky. Also the Br and Ce pistol were much more reliable than the DMrR which makes a world of difference when a enemy is 1 shot and tries to run away which happens alot in Reach. I agree AA’s play a equal part in the increased kill times, but the DMR does play a role too due to its bloom and 5-shot requirement at times. The DMR certainly doesnt kill enemies as fast as the H2 BR did either as the button glitches allowed for much faster and skilled gameplay.

But my point in my previous post was that nerfing the starting weapon is not the way to go, but making each weapon better at its niche and adding more mid-ranged speciallized weapons is.