Nerfing Anders

As someone who enjoys playing Anders quite a bit, this is personally a pretty tragic topic. However, I suppose I would rather it be me that suggests nerfs than anyone else. This is something I’ve changed my mind on a few times but I feel pretty sure I’ve got my opinions straight now. Currently, Anders has three broken aspects- Sentinel Network, Mass Sentinels, and Sentinel Beacon.

Network does the damage of a nuke and gives vision of the entire map for the meager price of 500 supply and 200 power (something like that). The fact that as an Anders main I don’t know its exact price is telling that it’s too damn cheap. Give it a price increase of 300 or so power and it should be okay. Its CD is quite long, so it’s not as if it affects every single late game engagement.

Sentinels might be made out of papier mâché in the early and mid game, but once they’re fully upgraded and massed they are nigh unstoppable. In fact, if left unmicro’d mass Sentinel beats mass AA. This is the one instance that Air is indeed OP. My suggestion would be to give them a 5% health and damage buff while increasing their population and perhaps nerfing their T3 explosion damage. This would make them more viable early on, but prevent them from becoming too dominant later on. I know this idea has been tossed around before, and it’s surprising that it hasn’t been implemented yet. This issue might not be seen very often, but it makes Anders unbeatable late game.

Sentinel Beacon is what makes Anders one of the most malignant leaders to play against in the late game. Although I do believe that Pavium outstrips her in that right, that doesn’t mean that there is no problem here. While Banished have access to Shrouds and thus don’t struggle so much versus mass siege, UNSC is a much different story. Once a couple siege turrets are thrown up, Anders’ bases become excruciatingly difficult to push. It wouldn’t be unreasonable to nerf the damage of the sentinels spawned by 25%.

These are the three things I’ve chosen to focus on, although I know others still call attention to the Spartan and Retriever. Some even bring into question R&D. Personally, I don’t think that they are nearly as problematic as Network, mass Sent, and Beacon, which are the powers that make Anders’ late game so ridiculous. The Spartans already took a hit (one that I find is quite noticeable) in the form of the Spartan Slam AoE and stun time nerf. Of course there is the issue of the stutter step micro exploit, but that’s not something I’m taking into consideration as it’s just that- an exploit. The Retriever is in a fine spot as well. AA deals with it very handily, even if it melts bases very quickly. Its purpose has always been to be a base sniping tool. As long as you know to be on your toes when facing a mid game Anders, it shouldn’t be a problem. I take the same stance with Inferno versus buildings. You know it’s coming. You can prepare for it and negate most of its effects. Lastly, if R&D is nerfed we’ll see Anders fall back to the bottom of everyone’s tier lists. R&D is what allows Anders’ strong mid game, as fast Combat Tech with Dispersion and infantry level II is deadly in this meta. However, note the phrase “in this meta.” I feel that the CT nerf wasn’t hefty enough, and that a lot of Anders’ mid game strength comes from the fact that Marines are over-performing rather than R&D being OP.

If you disagree let me know why. Thanks for reading.

I agree 100%. Anders is my love and I concur that Sentinel Network has saved me many many times. It’s a cheap power that I don’t have to think about. I never have to save for it or time it right. If I need guaranteed defense on an expansion or extra help on an aggressive push, I know it’ll be there. If not a cost increase, a cool down increase might be sufficient enough to make things more fair.

I agree 100% too. I couldn’t have said it better myself, Cars and Cameras has it spot on with this post. I can’t even offer anything else to say.

This is coming from someone who literally played a 2 hour long 2v2 game against Anders on Sentry and couldn’t win because… well for one because of Yap Yap and his glassing beam currently, but two because of mass sentinel/nightingale/hornet that my mass of Reavers couldn’t stop efficiently enough.

Sentinel network is a 5th point so of course its going to be good.

If Anders was unbeatable in late game with sentinels then I’m sure people would abuse them. The reason that nerf hasn’t been implemented is because it’s 1. not common and 2. not a problem.

If you do go against any UNSC siege turrets and you’re not capable of adapting into air then you should be punished.

A pop increase for sentinels would probably be enough tbh. I would also like to see a health increase of the retriever but also a damage vs buildings nerf imo.

> 2535462046559271;4:
> Sentinel network is a 5th point so of course its going to be good.
>
> If Anders was unbeatable in late game with sentinels then I’m sure people would abuse them. The reason that nerf hasn’t been implemented is because it’s 1. not common and 2. not a problem.
>
> If you do go against any UNSC siege turrets and you’re not capable of adapting into air then you should be punished.

“if left unmicro’d mass Sentinel beats mass AA”

This is not an opinion, it’s a fact. The reason we don’t see it is 1. people don’t know and 2. it’s relegated to the late game, which many matches don’t make it to.

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> > 2535462046559271;4:
> > Sentinel network is a 5th point so of course its going to be good.
> >
> > If Anders was unbeatable in late game with sentinels then I’m sure people would abuse them. The reason that nerf hasn’t been implemented is because it’s 1. not common and 2. not a problem.
> >
> > If you do go against any UNSC siege turrets and you’re not capable of adapting into air then you should be punished.
>
> “if left unmicro’d mass Sentinel beats mass AA”
>
> This is not an opinion, it’s a fact. The reason we don’t see it is 1. people don’t know and 2. it’s relegated to the late game, which many matches don’t make it to.

Here are some clips of the actual interaction.

Sentinels be crazy.

Pretty disappointing to watch!

To be honest though, this is the kind of experience I usually have fielding AA against any core air unit on this kind of scale.

i would also agree that the Kodak sentinel spawn/ spam is too powerful - an army of wolves and Kodiak’s can slowly move across the map and it is very difficult to counter.

Overall I agree with it, but I’m a bit skeptical of the siege nerf. 25% less damage? It’s a tech not really purchased until the extreme late-game and you are propping weakienng that already.
I think I’m the only one that goes for the siege ups first and it’s not extremely useful until you invest two points into it.
Should just be a 15% decrease.

Rest is a-okay, I’d like to see a heavier Douglass nerf, just to his ability to survive at tech 2-3 maybe by 10%.

Her early game is nasty if you spam Marines and get a couple of snipers out, im a banished main so I have a lot of problems dealing with her early on, i could use some advice if anyone can pitch in

I like Anders!
Don’t Nerf Her you scruffy headed Nerf-herder!

Anders winrate -2, something .
I dont like the idea of the nerf , Anders can be powerful if well played , but her sentinels don’t seem to strong to me.
Sentinel network goes down with some anti air.
Her only really strong point is the ultra lategame where you can turtle like hell.
I would like to see a retriever sentinel shield increase by 10 % or so and a building dmg nerf of 15 %.
Maybe buff her turret a bit .

> 2533274869431087;12:
> Anders winrate -2, something .
> I dont like the idea of the nerf , Anders can be powerful if well played , but her sentinels don’t seem to strong to me.
> Sentinel network goes down with some anti air.
> Her only really strong point is the ultra lategame where you can turtle like hell.
> I would like to see a retriever sentinel shield increase by 10 % or so and a building dmg nerf of 15 %.
> Maybe buff her turret a bit .

Winrates mean next to nothing. Pavium is on the bottom, yet Pavium is OP.

Her strong point is the mid game, where she can have CT, Dispersion, and inf level II faster than any other leader. It just so happens that her late game is nearly unbeatable.

> 2533274830489835;13:
> > 2533274869431087;12:
> > Anders winrate -2, something .
> > I dont like the idea of the nerf , Anders can be powerful if well played , but her sentinels don’t seem to strong to me.
> > Sentinel network goes down with some anti air.
> > Her only really strong point is the ultra lategame where you can turtle like hell.
> > I would like to see a retriever sentinel shield increase by 10 % or so and a building dmg nerf of 15 %.
> > Maybe buff her turret a bit .
>
> Winrates mean next to nothing. Pavium is on the bottom, yet Pavium is OP.
>
> Her strong point is the mid game, where she can have CT, Dispersion, and inf level II faster than any other leader. It just so happens that her late game is nearly unbeatable.

Pavium op :smiley: just if you have some problems vs him doesn’t mean he is ok xD
Learn to counter him and you will see he is a onetrick pony . I have a very difficult time vs Voridus , but that’s because I tend to ignore the goo, just because you can’t win against him winrates shouldn’t matter?

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> > >
>
> Pavium op :smiley: just if you have some problems vs him doesn’t mean he is ok xD
> Learn to counter him and you will see he is a onetrick pony . I have a very difficult time vs Voridus , but that’s because I tend to ignore the goo, just because you can’t win against him winrates shouldn’t matter?

So since I’m saying Pavium is OP, you’re assuming I’m only saying it because I have “some problems” with him? This morning I played multiple custom games with one of the top players (you might know him, his GT is MetaloidMonkey) trying to beat Pavium. I was unable to, though Shipmaster came close. These weren’t exactly “tests”, but they certainly confirm that Pavium is OP, especially if Ship (who is top tier) can’t beat him.

One does not simply “learn to counter” Invaders, which obliterate any ground force, and in particular counter UNSC’s infantry ball. Metaloid stated in no vague terms that Pavium is OP, and we both agreed that his low winrate was only due to the fact that no one knows how to play him properly.

> 2533274888442030;3:
> I agree 100% too. I couldn’t have said it better myself, Cars and Cameras has it spot on with this post. I can’t even offer anything else to say.
>
> This is coming from someone who literally played a 2 hour long 2v2 game against Anders on Sentry and couldn’t win because… well for one because of Yap Yap and his glassing beam currently, but two because of mass sentinel/nightingale/hornet that my mass of Reavers couldn’t stop efficiently enough.

I had the exact same situation in a 90min + game. About an hour of the match was me trying to crack 1 base. I literally had every other base on the map. I had 11 or 13 Reavers and we couldn’t get to the base. I have a 30 sec video, that I saved on live, but I don’t know how to post it here.

Sometimes it would be full pop sentinels and sometimes he would mix a condor into the mix. He also had Siege turrets, anti vehicle turrets, and a level 3 Spartan at 1 point. They destroyed so nearly every combination you can think of. I sen’t Scarbs, shrouds, Locusts, infantry, and everything else. I finally got him, but partly because he did something stupid. it was ridiculous.

And Anders was my favorite UNSC character too.

> 2533274830489835;13:
> > 2533274869431087;12:
> > Anders winrate -2, something .
> > I dont like the idea of the nerf , Anders can be powerful if well played , but her sentinels don’t seem to strong to me.
> > Sentinel network goes down with some anti air.
> > Her only really strong point is the ultra lategame where you can turtle like hell.
> > I would like to see a retriever sentinel shield increase by 10 % or so and a building dmg nerf of 15 %.
> > Maybe buff her turret a bit .
>
> Winrates mean next to nothing. Pavium is on the bottom, yet Pavium is OP.
>
> Her strong point is the mid game, where she can have CT, Dispersion, and inf level II faster than any other leader. It just so happens that her late game is nearly unbeatable.

That is your opinion, and you wIll need evidence to back that. Now, as to Anders abilities, it is tricky to nerf her unique unit that isn’t even the all around best unit. It’s fast, and it is effective against many units but not all of them and only when fully upgraded. Up damage received by infantry and AA and they will be fine. Damage shouldn’t be touched.

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> > 2533274830489835;13:
> > > 2533274869431087;12:
> > >
>
> That is your opinion, and you wIll need evidence to back that. Now, as to Anders abilities, it is tricky to nerf her unique unit that isn’t even the all around best unit. It’s fast, and it is effective against many units but not all of them and only when fully upgraded. Up damage received by infantry and AA and they will be fine. Damage shouldn’t be touched.

I suggest going to Nuchey’s channel and looking up “Wraith Invaders.” For a long time, they were ignored even though people knew they were good. Now, there’s a build that Metaloid does where he expands so that he can double pump them by 4th point. Think on that.

Infantry already shreds Sentinels. The problem is that AA isn’t performing well against them. And specifically buffing AA vs Sentinels would require further AA buffs in general, which is far (faaaaarrrr) from necessary. Increasing their pop cost would mean their numbers wouldn’t be so great, and AA would handle them much more easily.

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> > 2533274831388058;17:
> > > 2533274830489835;13:
> > > > 2533274869431087;12:
> > > >
> >
> > That is your opinion, and you wIll need evidence to back that. Now, as to Anders abilities, it is tricky to nerf her unique unit that isn’t even the all around best unit. It’s fast, and it is effective against many units but not all of them and only when fully upgraded. Up damage received by infantry and AA and they will be fine. Damage shouldn’t be touched.
>
> I suggest going to Nuchey’s channel and looking up “Wraith Invaders.” For a long time, they were ignored even though people knew they were good. Now, there’s a build that Metaloid does where he expands so that he can double pump them by 4th point. Think on that.
>
> Infantry already shreds Sentinels. The problem is that AA isn’t performing well against them. And specifically buffing AA vs Sentinels would require further AA buffs in general, which is far (faaaaarrrr) from necessary. Increasing their pop cost would mean their numbers wouldn’t be so great, and AA would handle them much more easily.

I didn’t say buff the AA. I said increase damage received by sentinels. There is a difference, as my proposal would make them weaker to AA rather than make AA stronger. Remaining gameplay elements would be unaffected. Now, I looked up the channel and saw the video. I see normal wraiths lose to wraith invaders, and can see the implications, but those are just implications, not explicit evidence of Pavium being OP, and that was after I ‘thought on that’ (Which is a weird order/command to give by the way). I’d be willing to continue if you want, but the thread title isn’t about Pavium so I’ll leave it at that.

Back to sentinels, you claim they become a problem once amassed, and propose a solution of a one unit increase per sentinel. Essentially, you would reduce the ‘amassed sentinels’ potential damage by 25%, but you want a 5% buff to damage and health, so that would translate to a potential damage output decrease of 21.25% (assuming you went all out sentinels and there is the 5% health buff). I don’t agree with such a significant nerf without a compensatory buff. After all, you claim they are extraordinary weak, so why propose just a 5% health buff? It just seems arbitrary.

Rethinking what your concern is, but considering I wouldn’t want them to be redundant or useless, I’d say it would actually make sense to buff the health by a significant amount, like 15%, along with your proposed 5% damage buff if you were to increase population cost. This would account for both of your concerns and address them in noticeable ways.

I am indifferent to your other proposals, but mostly because they wouldn’t change Anders too much. Lastly, Anders is currently underperforming according to Postums data on the top 20% of players, and so I question if this is all even necessary, but that is just from my perspective.

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> > 2533274869431087;14:
> > > 2533274830489835;13:
> > > > 2533274869431087;12:
> > > >
> >
> > Pavium op :smiley: just if you have some problems vs him doesn’t mean he is ok xD
> > Learn to counter him and you will see he is a onetrick pony . I have a very difficult time vs Voridus , but that’s because I tend to ignore the goo, just because you can’t win against him winrates shouldn’t matter?
>
> So since I’m saying Pavium is OP, you’re assuming I’m only saying it because I have “some problems” with him? This morning I played multiple custom games with one of the top players (you might know him, his GT is MetaloidMonkey) trying to beat Pavium. I was unable to, though Shipmaster came close. These weren’t exactly “tests”, but they certainly confirm that Pavium is OP, especially if Ship (who is top tier) can’t beat him.
>
> One does not simply “learn to counter” Invaders, which obliterate any ground force, and in particular counter UNSC’s infantry ball. Metaloid stated in no vague terms that Pavium is OP, and we both agreed that his low winrate was only due to the fact that no one knows how to play him properly.

So you are saying vehicles counter infantery? … interesting