Nerfing 5% Aim-assist potency will balance cross-play

[SuperKittyLeia]

@StormingKiwi

What is the data?

We both know the data. It’s taken from a list of top players who choose to play in the controller only playlist, but not the MKB only playlist, and players who choose to participate in the MKB only playlist, but not the controller only playlist. You and I both know the data, why are you asking me this?

@StormingKiwi

The rest of what you wrote is probably a result of you not reading my post, or cashews, carefully enough.

So you’re saying I’m not discussing this in good faith? Or you’re dismissing my points because you’re saying I’m ignorant? That’s poor form.

@StormingKiwi

This question is not relevant. Controllers have accuracy of x%, M/K y%, x > y.

The question is relevant, since we don’t know how often they played against similar groups of players. At least in the play groups listed they were pooled against different groups of players. Controllers against controller players. And KBM against KBM players. Since they played against different player groups, it’s hard to deduce if the increased accuracy would apply against the general population.

@StormingKiwi

It is far easier to evade using controller than keyboard and mouse with a random thumb wiggle.

I don’t believe this without more data. At the very least, it is far easier to strafe on KBM, which is critical to evading. You’re going to have to show me more data to convince me it’s easier to evade with a controller.

@StormingKiwi

Doesn’t matter, because 400 is a sample size which is sufficient for the population of Halo Infinite players.

If it were random, yes. But it wasn’t random. The top controller players and top keyboard and mouse players weren’t necessarily looked at. People who played and did well in particular playlists were chosen. These players were taken from a subset of Halo Infinite players, and not necessarily the top players (in fact, none of them are top tier in the crossplay list). So it’s hard to say how well the top controller and top KBM players would perform relative to the chosen players. The data is too limited. Using a random sample would give us a better idea than a sample from a small subset of players.

@StormingKiwi

Why are you even asking this question?

Because if we’re doing an unbias comparison, we would want to be comparing similar groups of KBM and controller users. I’m just trying to put out things that weren’t controlled for.

@StormingKiwi

To be clear, we’re talking accuracy, not CSR. CSR is not being discussed except as a tool to classify players as skilled/unskilled.

I never was. But it is a quick way for me to go look and see that it’s highly likely the players being looked at by Cashew aren’t the top tier players. They’re the best under the conditions cashew used, but not necessarily the best overall.

@StormingKiwi

I think rather than casting aspersions on other people’s work on the forums that you should do better work.

The burden of proof is on someone making a claim. I don’t have to do my own work to say why I don’t believe theirs.

And by the way. I never said they did a bad job. I think given the limited tools we have they did good work. I think we don’t have the tools necessary to properly prove their claim, so when I say I don’t believe they’ve proven their claim, I’m not saying they did a bad job.

[Dormiglione]

@Nextsus

Please never suggest aim assist should be made worse when it already feels awful to use a controller in this game, if 343i wants to fix input inequality the only solution is input-based matchmaking.

This, i agree 100% with that post

[StormingKiwi]

@SuperKittyLeia

We both know the data. It’s taken from a list of top players who choose to play in the controller only playlist, but not the MKB only playlist, and players who choose to participate in the MKB only playlist, but not the controller only playlist. You and I both know the data, why are you asking me this?

Great.

First step of data analysis is to understand the data you’re working with. That’s why I’m asking.

There is a lot of statistics which is poorly understood or simply Baaad.

@SuperKittyLeia

So you’re saying I’m not discussing this in good faith?

It took me an hour to read and understand your post, and reply to it. It took you 15 minutes.

I think you are making counter claims and playing forum games.

@SuperKittyLeia

I don’t believe this without more data. At the very least, it is far easier to strafe on KBM, which is critical to evading. You’re going to have to show me more data to convince me it’s easier to evade with a controller.

If you tap A and D too fast, you stay still.
Analogue controllers control movement speed. WASD you move at one speed.

@SuperKittyLeia

The burden of proof is on someone making a claim.

Correct, but they have provided data and evidence for their claims. You are making counter claims.

So provide your evidence and data.

That’s the whole issue with all of your posts on this topic. You’re making counter claims and absolving yourself of responsibility to prove them because they aren’t claims.

@SuperKittyLeia

If it were random, yes. But it wasn’t random. The top controller players and top keyboard and mouse players weren’t necessarily looked at. People who played and did well in particular playlists were chosen. These players were taken from a subset of Halo Infinite players, and not necessarily the top players (in fact, none of them are top tier in the crossplay list). So it’s hard to say how well the top controller and top KBM players would perform relative to the chosen players. The data is too limited. Using a random sample would give us a better idea than a sample from a small subset of players.

Data please.

Zergzar is Onyx in both solo/duo KBM and Crossplay.
Veracity of claim - false.

@SuperKittyLeia

The question is relevant, since we don’t know how often they played against similar groups of players. At least in the play groups listed they were pooled against different groups of players. Controllers against controller players. And KBM against KBM players. Since they played against different player groups, it’s hard to deduce if the increased accuracy would apply against the general population.

Riiiiight.

Isn’t the data a measurement of accuracy? Why does it matter who their opponent is?

@SuperKittyLeia

Because if we’re doing an unbias comparison, we would want to be comparing similar groups of KBM and controller users. I’m just trying to put out things that weren’t controlled for.

But we are comparing similar groups - they have a high CSR.

@SuperKittyLeia

Using a random sample would give us a better idea than a sample from a small subset of players.

The issue with all of your posts is this insistence that the data should be absolutely random. Statistics would be in such a bad spot if this were true, because no data is random. All that is important is that the sample is representative of the underlying population under investigation. It doesn’t matter if it is random or not.

Random sampling is theoretically convenient but practically useless.

Like I said,

@StormingKiwi

I think rather than casting aspersions on other people’s work on the forums that you should do better work.

[StormingKiwi]

Anyway, now I really must sleep. Goodnight

[l_HyperLethal_l]

-Yoink!-. No.

No. No. No.

[l_HyperLethal_l]

No. Nerfing. Aim-assist.

I don’t care about what date you shove in my face. Turn off crossplay and thinking you can -Yoink!- on the game controller players enjoyed for 20 years.

[SuperKittyLeia]

I think you are making counter claims and playing forum games.

I am generally not making counter claims. I am not saying they’re wrong. I am saying I don’t believe they’ve proven their claim. And I don’t know what you mean by forum games.

If you tap A and D too fast, you stay still.
Analogue controllers control movement speed. WASD you move at one speed.

Fair points. But I am still not convinced it’s harder to strafe quickly on PC. Which is very important for evading. Do you have data showing it’s harder to strafe on PC, because that would be counter to my intuition, and hence I’ll need more convincing.

@StormingKiwi

Correct, but they have provided data and evidence for their claims. You are making counter claims.

I am not making counter claims. I am saying I don’t think their evidence is convincing. A counter claim would be saying they’re wrong. Which I’ve not done. I was careful not to.

@StormingKiwi

That’s the whole issue with all of your posts on this topic. You’re making counter claims and absolving yourself of responsibility to prove them because they aren’t claims.

I am not making counter claims. I have been careful not to. I don’t believe their data is sufficient. But it doesn’t mean I believe they are wrong. Nor have I claimed they are. A lack of belief is not a belief someone is wrong.

@StormingKiwi

Data please.

Even you’re admitted it is not random.

Zergzar is Onyx in both solo/duo KBM and Crossplay.
Veracity of claim - false.

Let me clarify, because I was a little loose with what I was saying there, which I admit to. When I said that I was looking at the top 3 players in each playlist. There wasn’t overlap based on CSR on Halotracker, which I do acknowledge wasn’t how Cashew did their testing. But it is enough evidence for me to have doubts that the top 100 players who’ve played in KBM only playlists are in the top 100 of all KBM users. Similarly, it gives me doubts that the top 100 players who’ve played in Controller only playlists are the top 100 of all controller players. I would need to see more data to believe that.

@StormingKiwi

Riiiiight.

Isn’t the data a measurement of accuracy? Why does it matter who their opponent is?

Because different players will have different evasion levels, and potentially different evasion tactics altogether. Hence their accuracy against one group might not transfer to their accuracy against another group.

@StormingKiwi

But we are comparing similar groups - they have a high CSR.

Similar in that quality. And similar CSR in particular playlists, against different groups of people. Not all variables were controlled for.

@StormingKiwi

The issue with all of your posts is this insistence that the data should be absolutely random. Statistics would be in such a bad spot if this were true, because no data is random. All that is important is that the sample is representative of the underlying population under investigation. It doesn’t matter if it is random or not.

I am not insisting the data should be absolutely random. But when we are looking at a small subset whose performance isn’t necessarily indicative of the average player, or even the average top tier player with their respective input device in crossplay, then I’m going to have doubts about how well we can apply the data to the population. I have doubts that we can use it to say one input device really is better for aiming…

@StormingKiwi

Like I said,

I already explained why I don’t need to do my own work. I’m not trying to make counter claims (admittedly I did make one claim, which I’ve since address). I’m having doubts about their data, and I don’t need data for that.

[ch33zy_burrito]

Yup, that’s one of the downsides when you have pinpoint control over your accuracy. Lol @ pc players who have more control than any console players in almost any facet and still complain.

[STARSChris]

As a MKB player I just want to say something, I am currently using a controller as I am getting much more kills at range thanks to the built in aim bot I get, this makes weapons like the AR, Sidekick, BR, Stalker Rifle and Shock rifle really shine, and super easy to use compared to on MKB.

So why don’t we just give the PC players Aim assist? That way both sides don’t really have to use skill to play so it’s all balanced.

[l_HyperLethal_l]

Yeah. This would be a solution I’d be okay with. Destiny 2 gives PC players a bit of bullet bending with their shots, too.

[l_HyperLethal_l]

Uh well it’s either that or rampant crying.

Plus, mouse already had a mouse magnetism option in the flights. It’s probably broken now but at least they thought about a way to shut them up for christ sake.

[l_HyperLethal_l]

You not asking for it to be balanced. Why else would prople want controller aim assist nerfed based on -Yoink!- data collected from a 5th grader?

You are most definitely not asking for balance. And what’s this “experience” people want anyway? How else are you going to aim with -Yoink!- aim assist on controller?

[SMF_V3ng3ance]

Nah just remove it for cross-platform rank let the real players play I want to actually play with no aa n get better at it

[l_HyperLethal_l]

Real players huh? Yeah okay buddy.

[s_TINY_g]

The only way controller players can aim and make correction is using their thumb. Meanwhile m&k users have their entire palm , all 5 fingers and muscles in them to refine their aim. To EQUALIZE this . I DEMAND THAT ALL PC PLAYERS BE FORCED TO USE ONLY THEIR THUMBS. WOW!! IM SO SMART.

[l_HyperLethal_l]

Players have the right to ask anything. I’m not holding a gun to their heads.

Why would you even assume that?

[SMF_V3ng3ance]

I’m more saying let the people that want to play with pc gamers with the aa off not saying turn it off completely

[l_HyperLethal_l]

Did you know that PC players had a mouse magnetism option in their settings? During the flights of course. I assume it’s off completely or just hard-coded into the general gameplay.

Either way, you would’ve been walking into a firestorm if it was still an available option.

[l_HyperLethal_l]

Okay? I guess. Perhaps I should reread your post a second third time?

[l_HyperLethal_l]

@NKZLVL

Do players have ground to want a different experience than what the controller aim assist and tweaks Halo franchise adds to ranked mode as acceptable in an advertised competitive gameplay offering?

What experience is there other than aim-assist or no aim-assist? I answered this in the previous post. Basically saying “what experience?”