Needle Rifle Must Return! [Valid Argument]

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

Hey everyone, vVvDARK WOLFvVv here! Alrighty! I have seen recent posts here and there about the needle rifle coming back. So instead of shouting “IT MUST COME BACK CAUSE ITS THE NEEDLE RIFLE” I am going to attempt to make a valid argument of why It should come back! And by extension make it so its not totally OP but still an interesting formidable weapon! (and my opinion of how it should be if/when it makes its return) Then I will let you all vote on it!

Alright, everyone knows the needle rifle is the infamous super-combine needle-based rifle counterpart of the DMR in halo reach. Well, with the new halo 5 sandbox we have (that we know of) 2 human non-sniper precision weapons (3 if you count the possibility that the pistol will have a smart scope) the Burst fire BR and the Single shot DMR. As of right now the Carbine is the only precision non-sniper covenant weapon. The carbine seems to be the single shot BR counterpart to me. Granted it behaves differently from the BR and I personally prefer the superior fire rate of it. But my question is… Where is the DMR counterpart? people want to say the forerunner Light Rifle, which to me is a mix of BR and DMR with its alternating fire modes and what not, is said counterpart and I respectfully disagree with the people that say the LR is the counter part to the DMR.

The DMR as it stands has NO covenant counter part. So I propose the needle rifle return as a med-long range 2-shot-burst-fire to counter the DMR. But to balance it out with the Carbine’s higher R.O.F (rate of fire), here are the statistics That I think would supplement it well:

4 two-shot-bursts (8 needles) to take shield out and an additional two-shot-burst (2 needles) for the headshot (Total: 10 needles for a headshot kill) or 2 additional two-shot-bursts (4 needles) after the shields have been downed for a super-combine (Total: 12 needles for a body kill)

Also this proposed incarnation of the needle rifle should NOT have the automatic function that it did in reach.

It also should in my opinion be balanced as a map pickup, much like id prefer the DMR to be. Both being on the level of low-tier power weapons, like on the level of the SAW and the Needler

This is my interpretation of how the needle rifle should be and how to keep it separate and unique from other sandbox weapons. I hope you all like these ideas! :smiley:

VOTE AWAY! and keep the thread alive! Get it into the eyes of 343i! DISCUSS! :smiley:

EDIT: Some one suggested to me that the name for this new variant be the Shard Rifle, I think this sounds good… what about you guys?

2

Love It! If they put it in working like this i’ve already a good forge map idea.

3

Wait… who’s saying they don’t want the NR back? Other than the bare bones sand box supporters I don’t think anyone else is against the NR coming back. I could be wrong though.

Close range rifles: AR, SR.

Medium range rifles: BR, CC.

Long range rifles: DMR, wait where’s the last one?

There’s a hole in the weapon selection and I’m sure there’s plenty of people who want it filled.

And why are you suggesting they take the automatic firing away? That’s one of the biggest things that sets it apart from the DMR.

4

> Love It! If they put it in working like this i’ve already a good forge map idea.

Thank you… I actually did put a fair bit of thought into possibly fitting this into the game. Spread the word :slight_smile:

And if you want ideas for forge Check this out :slight_smile: it oughta give some inspiration Spread the word about this too if you would like :slight_smile: I want to get some developer recognition from these 2 posts! :smiley:

5

> Wait… <mark>who’s saying they don’t want the NR back?</mark> Other than the bare bones sand box supporters I don’t think anyone else is against the NR coming back. I could be wrong though.
>
> Close range rifles: AR, SR.
>
> Medium range rifles: BR, CC.
>
> Long range rifles: DMR, wait where’s the last one?
>
> There’s a hole in the weapon selection and I’m sure there’s plenty of people who want it filled.
>
> <mark>And why are you suggesting they take the automatic firing away? That’s one of the biggest things that sets it apart from the DMR.</mark>

Highlight 1: I dont recall saying that people said they dont want it back? maybe I mis-typed something

Highlight 2: Because it is being traded off for burst fire functionality

6

We have the Magnum, Carbine, and Battle Rifle. The DMR and Needle Rifle bring nothing new to the table besides a 3x scope that hurts map design.

7

> We have the Magnum, Carbine, and Battle Rifle. The DMR and Needle Rifle bring nothing new to the table besides a 3x scope that hurts map design.

This is why DMR and NR (suggested variant) should be map pickups as opposed to loadout options. In the starting weeks of Halo 4 all people ever chose was the DMR because it was the god finger before the Title Update. And if there are DMR/NR starts, it should be a specific game mode and should only allow those two weapons.

And I would also argue that making the NR a Med-long range burst fire weapon with decent stopping power and super combine capability would be a fresh take on the weapon.

8

> > Wait… <mark>who’s saying they don’t want the NR back?</mark> Other than the bare bones sand box supporters I don’t think anyone else is against the NR coming back. I could be wrong though.
> >
> > Close range rifles: AR, SR.
> >
> > Medium range rifles: BR, CC.
> >
> > Long range rifles: DMR, wait where’s the last one?
> >
> > There’s a hole in the weapon selection and I’m sure there’s plenty of people who want it filled.
> >
> > <mark>And why are you suggesting they take the automatic firing away? That’s one of the biggest things that sets it apart from the DMR.</mark>
>
> Highlight 1: I dont recall saying that people said they dont want it back? maybe I mis-typed something
>
>
> Highlight 2: Because it is being traded off for burst fire functionality

It’s just that you’ve gone through all the trouble of making this thread. Why go through so much effort when you’re not likely to meet any resistance? You could have just as easily said “I agree that the NR should come back” on the other thread and you would’ve achieved the same thing.

And why does the NR need burst fire functionality? What’s wrong with the auto-fire?

9

I don’t think it can exist alongside the Carbine without some major changes, but then it wouldn’t really be the Needle Rifle anymore.

Besides, this argument is basically about how we don’t need a covenant counterpart to every UNSC weapon. Each faction should have weapons that behave very differently and fill different roles. Since the carbine already exists as a medium range weapon, give it a smidge of a buff to range to allow it to compete more fairly with the DMR.

10

> > We have the Magnum, Carbine, and Battle Rifle. The DMR and Needle Rifle bring nothing new to the table besides a 3x scope that hurts map design.
>
> This is why DMR and NR (suggested variant) should be map pickups as opposed to loadout options. In the starting weeks of Halo 4 all people ever chose was the DMR because it was the god finger before the Title Update. And if there are DMR/NR starts, it should be a specific game mode and should only allow those two weapons.
>
> And I would also argue that making the NR a Med-long range burst fire weapon with decent stopping power and super combine capability would be a fresh take on the weapon.

Maps should be designed around the engagement range that weapons with a 2x scope promote.

Scopes above 2x should be reserved for sniper class weapons.

If there absolutely had to be one weapon with a 3x scope, it should be a 12 unscoped shot / 5 scoped shot kill Light Rifle.

11

> > > Wait… <mark>who’s saying they don’t want the NR back?</mark> Other than the bare bones sand box supporters I don’t think anyone else is against the NR coming back. I could be wrong though.
> > >
> > > Close range rifles: AR, SR.
> > >
> > > Medium range rifles: BR, CC.
> > >
> > > Long range rifles: DMR, wait where’s the last one?
> > >
> > > There’s a hole in the weapon selection and I’m sure there’s plenty of people who want it filled.
> > >
> > > <mark>And why are you suggesting they take the automatic firing away? That’s one of the biggest things that sets it apart from the DMR.</mark>
> >
> > Highlight 1: I dont recall saying that people said they dont want it back? maybe I mis-typed something
> >
> >
> > Highlight 2: Because it is being traded off for burst fire functionality
>
> It’s just that you’ve gone through all the trouble of making this thread. Why go through so much effort when you’re not likely to meet any resistance? You could have just as easily said “I agree that the NR should come back” on the other thread and you would’ve achieved the same thing.
>
> And why does the NR need burst fire functionality? What’s wrong with the auto-fire?

A) this a post I formerly made pre-halo 4 and at the time there was a lot of opposition to the re-inclusion of the NR, so I tweaked it and re worded what I originally said

B) “Why burst fire functionality?” because it, in my opinion, would take away the element of spray-and-pray and add Some combat depth to Med-long range combat. instead of fire in the pattern it did in Reach, I propose that it quickly spits out 2 shots per trigger pull with a fire rate similar to the BR also, it would add to the need for each shot to be on target.

Because as is demonstrated by burst fire weapons, both shots aren’t fired simultaneously and you would need to keep your crosshair on target longer, in my opinion adding more skill to the weapons use.

Plus this would ad a level of uniqueness to the weapon that I feel Reach’s NR lacked.

12

> > > We have the Magnum, Carbine, and Battle Rifle. The DMR and Needle Rifle bring nothing new to the table besides a 3x scope that hurts map design.
> >
> > This is why DMR and NR (suggested variant) should be map pickups as opposed to loadout options. In the starting weeks of Halo 4 all people ever chose was the DMR because it was the god finger before the Title Update. And if there are DMR/NR starts, it should be a specific game mode and should only allow those two weapons.
> >
> > And I would also argue that making the NR a Med-long range burst fire weapon with decent stopping power and super combine capability would be a fresh take on the weapon.
>
> Maps should be designed around the engagement range that weapons with a 2x scope promote.
>
> Scopes above 2x should be reserved for sniper class weapons.
>
> If there absolutely had to be one weapon with a 3x scope, it should be a 12 unscoped shot / 5 scoped shot kill Light Rifle.

I’ve always thought of the LR as a middleman style weapon. Its in a niche all of its own. One that is effective in both med-long range and short-med range. It’s kinda the bridge between the two weapon niches if you get what I mean.

And the med-long range weapons (DMR/NR) serve as the bridge between short-med range combat and long range combat, thus having their own niche. See what I am getting at here?

And this all leads back to my argument about how NR and DMR should be map pickups

13

> I’ve always thought of the LR as a middleman style weapon. Its in a niche all of its own. One that is effective in both med-long range and short-med range. It’s kinda the bridge between the two weapon niches if you get what I mean.
>
> And the med-long range weapons (DMR/NR) serve as the bridge between short-med range combat and long range combat, thus having their own niche. See what I am getting at here?
>
> And this all leads back to my argument about how NR and DMR should be map pickups

When you have two unique weapons, you have two unique weapons.

When you have two unique weapons and you also have a weapon that “bridges the gap” between those two weapons then you have zero unique weapons because everything blends together without ever creating distinct niches and roles.

14

> > I’ve always thought of the LR as a middleman style weapon. Its in a niche all of its own. One that is effective in both med-long range and short-med range. It’s kinda the bridge between the two weapon niches if you get what I mean.
> >
> > And the med-long range weapons (DMR/NR) serve as the bridge between short-med range combat and long range combat, thus having their own niche. See what I am getting at here?
> >
> > And this all leads back to my argument about how NR and DMR should be map pickups
>
> When you have two unique weapons, you have two unique weapons.
>
> When you have two unique weapons and you also have a weapon that “bridges the gap” between those two weapons then you have zero unique weapons because everything blends together without ever creating distinct niches and roles.

I think you just used your argument against yourself. seeing as the LR’s sole purpose is to “bridge the gap”.

The LR isn’t the PERFECT bridge mind you. Yes it is capable of firing at range. but it is not as effective at doing so as say, the DMR, just like while it is capable of performing in shorter ranged combat, the BR or Carbine is better suited. but ultimately it all comes down to preference of use. cuz i know people that will simply skip back and forth between short-med range and med-long range weapons depending on map and forego the LR entirely.

Similarly. The DMR and NR is not a perfect bridge between med range and long range combat. yes they can reach extreme distances, but no where near the point of the Sniper rifle or Beam rifle (or the dreaded Focus Rifle) similarly, unless in the hands of an extremely good player, the DMR is usually ineffective at shorter ranges.

The DMR and NR are their own niche, just like the BR and carbine, Just like the LR and just like the Sniper weapons and Automatics, and just like the melee and shotgun weapons.

Let me break this down for you

There are 4 main niches in halo, usually in the form of power weapons
-Melee (Sword and hammer)
-Short Range (Shotgun based weapons)
-Med. Range (Needler due to its lockon)
-Long Range (Sniper rifles)
(I will leave rockets out of this)

And each of these main niches have have bridges between
-Melee-short Range
-Short-Med Range
-Med-long Range

These bridges are are provide balance between the 4 main niches and usually come in the form of your weapon starts.

Automatics will usually fill the gaps between melee and short range, and CAN be effective at med range if the right amount of skill is applied

Weapons like the BR and Carbine bridges the gap between short and med range. and CAN be effective at a longer range if you are either really good or really lucky

Weapons like the DMR and NR will bridge between med. and long range but unless in the hands of a skilled player, they are all but useless in any thing other than med-long range combat.

the LR is completely unique in the manner that it bridges the gap between Short-med range and Med-long range

15

> > > > Wait… <mark>who’s saying they don’t want the NR back?</mark> Other than the bare bones sand box supporters I don’t think anyone else is against the NR coming back. I could be wrong though.
> > > >
> > > > Close range rifles: AR, SR.
> > > >
> > > > Medium range rifles: BR, CC.
> > > >
> > > > Long range rifles: DMR, wait where’s the last one?
> > > >
> > > > There’s a hole in the weapon selection and I’m sure there’s plenty of people who want it filled.
> > > >
> > > > <mark>And why are you suggesting they take the automatic firing away? That’s one of the biggest things that sets it apart from the DMR.</mark>
> > >
> > > Highlight 1: I dont recall saying that people said they dont want it back? maybe I mis-typed something
> > >
> > >
> > > Highlight 2: Because it is being traded off for burst fire functionality
> >
> > It’s just that you’ve gone through all the trouble of making this thread. Why go through so much effort when you’re not likely to meet any resistance? You could have just as easily said “I agree that the NR should come back” on the other thread and you would’ve achieved the same thing.
> >
> > And why does the NR need burst fire functionality? What’s wrong with the auto-fire?
>
> A) this a post I formerly made pre-halo 4 and at the time there was a lot of opposition to the re-inclusion of the NR, so I tweaked it and re worded what I originally said

You know what? Never mind. I can’t believe this but all I have to do is look at some of these posts to see that you’re right. The idea of the NR coming back actually has opposition and I find that absolutely ridiculous.

> B) “Why burst fire functionality?” because it, in my opinion, would take away the element of spray-and-pray and add Some combat depth to Med-long range combat. instead of fire in the pattern it did in Reach, I propose that it quickly spits out 2 shots per trigger pull with a fire rate similar to the BR also, it would add to the need for each shot to be on target.
>
> Because as is demonstrated by burst fire weapons, both shots aren’t fired simultaneously and you would need to keep your crosshair on target longer, in my opinion adding more skill to the weapons use.
>
> Plus this would ad a level of uniqueness to the weapon that I feel Reach’s NR lacked.

Then lower the fire rate, decrease the bloom, change it’s kill time, shorten it’s range, do something to the gun that already exists. If you take away the automatic firing and replace it it wouldn’t be the same gun that we used in Reach. Imagine a BR that didn’t have a three bullet burst. I wouldn’t consider that to be the same gun and the same goes for the NR.

It wouldn’t be making the NR more unique either because you’re taking one unique feature and replacing it with another, nothing is be accomplished in this regard.

A larger skill gap and fine tuning is something that the long range rifle niche needs as a whole and this isn’t something that only affects the NR. I’m not going to go into detail over this because you want them on the map while I believe they should be in load outs and those two things require completely different balancing.

16

Should we have weapons with a 4x scope to bridge the gap between Needle Rifles and Sniper Rifles?

17

> > > > > Wait… <mark>who’s saying they don’t want the NR back?</mark> Other than the bare bones sand box supporters I don’t think anyone else is against the NR coming back. I could be wrong though.
> > > > >
> > > > > Close range rifles: AR, SR.
> > > > >
> > > > > Medium range rifles: BR, CC.
> > > > >
> > > > > Long range rifles: DMR, wait where’s the last one?
> > > > >
> > > > > There’s a hole in the weapon selection and I’m sure there’s plenty of people who want it filled.
> > > > >
> > > > > <mark>And why are you suggesting they take the automatic firing away? That’s one of the biggest things that sets it apart from the DMR.</mark>
> > > >
> > > > Highlight 1: I dont recall saying that people said they dont want it back? maybe I mis-typed something
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Highlight 2: Because it is being traded off for burst fire functionality
> > >
> > > It’s just that you’ve gone through all the trouble of making this thread. Why go through so much effort when you’re not likely to meet any resistance? You could have just as easily said “I agree that the NR should come back” on the other thread and you would’ve achieved the same thing.
> > >
> > > And why does the NR need burst fire functionality? What’s wrong with the auto-fire?
> >
> > A) this a post I formerly made pre-halo 4 and at the time there was a lot of opposition to the re-inclusion of the NR, so I tweaked it and re worded what I originally said
>
> You know what? Never mind. I can’t believe this but all I have to do is look at some of these posts to see that you’re right. The idea of the NR coming back actually has opposition and I find that absolutely ridiculous.
>
>
>
> > B) “Why burst fire functionality?” because it, in my opinion, would take away the element of spray-and-pray and add Some combat depth to Med-long range combat. instead of fire in the pattern it did in Reach, I propose that it quickly spits out 2 shots per trigger pull with a fire rate similar to the BR also, it would add to the need for each shot to be on target.
> >
> > Because as is demonstrated by burst fire weapons, both shots aren’t fired simultaneously and you would need to keep your crosshair on target longer, in my opinion adding more skill to the weapons use.
> >
> > Plus this would ad a level of uniqueness to the weapon that I feel Reach’s NR lacked.
>
> Then lower the fire rate, decrease the bloom, change it’s kill time, shorten it’s range, do something to the gun that already exists. If you take away the automatic firing and replace it it wouldn’t be the same gun that we used in Reach. Imagine a BR that didn’t have a three bullet burst. I wouldn’t consider that to be the same gun and the same goes for the NR.
>
> It wouldn’t be making the NR more unique either because you’re taking one unique feature and replacing it with another, nothing is be accomplished in this regard.
>
> A larger skill gap and fine tuning is something that the long range rifle niche needs as a whole and this isn’t something that only affects the NR. I’m not going to go into detail over this because you want them on the map while I believe they should be in load outs and those two things require completely different balancing.

  1. This is an idea I had for the needle rifle even before Halo 4 was ever announced. I have always felt like the NR would serve better as a burst fire weapon. Dont ask me why, its just a feeling I had one day while playing reach.

  2. I agree that loadout balancing and map weapon balancing are 2 very different things

18

> Should we have weapons with a 4x scope to bridge the gap between Needle Rifles and Sniper Rifles?

No need to get snarky. I was merely pointing out that the LR was unique in that it created its own niche. I never promoted or spoke against it.

In my honest opinion, the usefulness of the LR, while Versatile on paper, I have found is actually quite limited in practice. I still use it to try to improve my ability to do so. But any map that would be good for the LR could be better suited for the use of a DMR Pre-TU (title update).

Post-TU however, The LR is much more useful at longer ranges due to it being changed to a 4sk when zoomed. better serves its intended niche.

19

Anyways! Back to the topic at hand.

20

Anyone else think that the NR should return with these changes? or even return at all?