Never give in. Never surrender.
I’ll keep on trying.
Ranking systems aren’t supposed to be fun. They are supposed to rank you as quickly as they can.
And then they don’t change just because you win a game or two.
What people really want is an XP rank to grind. Which sounds like it is coming! That should bring the fun back for people who want a number to go up with every win.
Not an effective ranking system. It would be tediously slow to find your true rank and would create huge mis-matches in match making.
Thats why you have a hidden MMR. 343 just didn’t understand the concept of it…
110%…
Keep the MMR hidden.
Have a CSR that is either 1-50 or Bronze 1 to Onyx 6. But keep them as defined ranges of MMR. That is the job of the CSR - to hide the fluctuations of the MMR.
People were happy to hit ‘50’ and just ‘be’. In the background their MMR could drift up and crash down… but as long as the ‘50’ stayed they were happy.
But now we see and feel every single point that is won or lost.
People could accept dropping from ‘45’ to ‘44’ and just grit their teeth and work their way back. But now we lose our minds if we drop from 1545 to 1544.
Darwi, thank you for being one of the rare few posters that thinks critically and writes clearly in a forum.
People are more likely to share their negative opinions than positive ones. On top of that, when people see/hear more negative opinions they assume everyone has a negative opinion on the topic. It’s an unfortunate dynamic.
I have a positive opinion of the ranking system so I’ll post about it. I think the ranking system works fine. Here’s the metric; if, after playing a decent amount of games in a particular playlist so that your rank more or less settles, are most of your games close? A perfect system would result in most games ending 50-49, 250-230, 2-1, etc.
In my experience, yes, most of my ranked games were close before the reset and they’re getting closer everyday after the rank reset as people settle into their true rank.
Unfortunately, many people think they deserve to be ever ranking up just by playing. That is not what a skill ranking system should do; That’s an XP system. So as long as there’s no XP system many people are going to be upset with their rank for expecting it to be something it isn’t.
A little input on the ranking system from messing around with it. First off, I don’t think your emblem or division rank plays that large of a part of whom you match. My friends and I have made booster accounts and having a trash account will match an onyx rank against silver, gold & plats. Though this is just for a handful of games. Then the system recognizes the skill of the booster & you match according to your skill. For instance last night I was on a d6 & buddy was on a bronze 5, we matched a 2056. More or less the division rankings can be a drag if you’re trying to go up. Play some really good games, you’ll get matched with higher people than people in your current “division rank”. I think it would be nice if 343 had it to where you match people in your division, but once you get up to the tier 5/6, you then start matching the people in the next tier up. This would prevent people from getting burnt out by playing onyx all throughout their diamond tenure. And yes, I realize not everyone matches onyx all the time, but if you’re good enough to be one, you’ll play them every game. Thus halting your progression to that rank & get that burnt out feeling.
They’ve actually talked about this in their GDC presentations.
If you’re not careful and make your match making too balanced you lock everyone in. Lovely straight ranking distribution though.
So they actually build in a range of matches so that the system had a chance to see if someone is getting better (or worse) and give them a chance to rank up (out down).
All games you play impact your expected performance (MMR), which in turn impacts how much you gain or lose in a ranked game (CSR).
In theory this sounds good. In practice, it’s really dumb. Essentially, everything you do (social, BTB, fiesta) impacts how the system rates you as a player. So when you fire up ranked, it uses that as a baseline to determine your elo rate (up or down).
The MASSIVE problem with that is, people don’t play the same with social playlists at they do ranked. For example, I play with friends (sometimes having drinks) when I hit up social and BTB. I play ranked very differently, as do most people. Can someone explain why my performance in a fun, casual mode should have any bearing whatsoever on my rewards in a ranked system?
All that does is make me (and others) have to sweat in social, since the system tries to match the CSR to MMR. MMR being an accumulation of skill across ALL game modes.
This essentially removes a safe space to mess around and instead makes everything an extension of ranked.
Ranked should be it’s own thing. CSR vs CSR. Nothing else. Simple. If I’m 1500 and beat 1600 players, I should go up, a lot. The inverse should be true too. Adding that superfluous extra layer of MMR to ranked serves no purpose at all. Other than to obscure what’s really going on. Which is obviously what’s leading to the negative feedback.
The solution is simple - CSR vs CSR. Stop trying to outsmart your players.
Not so dumb in practice.
You essentially have a separate MMR for each playlist. There is some shared data but each playlist has it’s set of offsets. We don’t know the exact break up but we can assume each playlist functions as it’s own skill curve (with mu and sigma values).
The cross list influence pretty much only matters when you go into a playlist for the very first time. So it only matters on new accounts (eg. the Reddit post where they made a new account, played botcamp to get a huge MMR, and then went into ranked and played very high Onyx in placement).
The effect on mature accounts is pretty negligible.
You can test that yourself. And plenty people have tried - if you read the follow up posts on Reddit posts. Someone generated a KDA of over 30 and still had the same quality opponents when they went back to ranked.
Anecdotally I’ve played bot matches for half an hour or so before I got bored and noticed zero difference when I went back into ranked. Similarly on my weekly muck around with mates (we play a lot of BTB very badly) - zero noticeable effect when I go back into ranked the next day.
And if it really worked that way then I’m sure there would have been plenty of youtubers showing off their “fake” Onyx accounts by now.
Again. Each playlist has it’s own offsets.
Halo 5 had lots of different ranked playlists and you could clearly function at different levels. And when you went into placement into one list there was no change to your opponent quality in another list.
Whether you choose to sweat or chill in social is completely up to you.
Separating your MMR and CSR has it’s advantages. Lots of games do it.
You would (depending on how wide/volatile your skill curve is at this point).
But if your CSR has drifted up on the back of a few token wins vs lowly teams, or you have been carried to the win by much better performing team mates, the system just uses the opportunity to steal back a few CSR points.
The MMR is a hard sell.
It contains a lot of math that is hard to understand (I certainly don’t) - and people get confused by the concept of it being a curve as opposed to a hard number. The system never purports to know your actual skill - just a range of where it is likely to be.
And because your MMR isn’t a hard value - you need a CSR of some sort.
It’s also difficult to translate how your MMR curve is behaving. It depends on the shape of your curve. If it’s wide and volatile you will move faster than a team-mate with a narrow curve. How do you present that to the general gaming populace?
The CSR tries to simplify it. You have a definitive number. You win and you go up (1 to 15 points). You lose and you go down (1 to 15 points). You don’t have to mention guassian curves, mean values, or (gulp) standard deviations).
I agree whole heartedly that they need full disclosure for those who can’t relax because they only went up 5 points and their mate went up 12. You should be able to look up your CSR change and get a full break down on it’s value.
The ranking MMR system is fine. The CSR journey could do with a bit more work.
OG halo 3 on the 360 says other wise
you’re beating a dead horse with a grav hammer
we want both
“true rank” there is no such thing, it a pipe dream
no it needs to be visible if only for the player it belongs to
not really if bot boot camp MMR can effect who you go against in placement matches
skill is a ladder not a curve
then stop trying to act like you do by explaining it in every thread about ranks
do we though, it seems superfluous to have both when one would do
this was gaming in its heyday back in 06-2015 b4 MMR was a thing and it was glorious. getting whipped one match only to stomp in the next and oh the trash talk was amazing just look up YouTube vids of MW2 pregame lobbies. those were the true gamming years but now everyone needs their safe spaces so most games don’t even have prematch lobbies and trash talk is reported and frowned upon now its, sad, so sad.
H3 was TrueSkill! Just not as good as new and improved TrueSkill2.
And it’s weird how people continue to praise what Bungie did. The truth is it wasn’t fun.
First of all they hid your rank behind a grind of wins. Just that. Wins. Nothing special there because TrueSkill was matchmaking with your hidden MMR… So your games were always around 50:50. Need 100 wins? - Just play 200 games.
Then there were the the hidden ranks. Twenty of them. Which made everyone feel better. But just created a level 50 that didn’t really mean much.
And finally we have rank locking. It meant if you didn’t rank up fast enough, or did actually improve, you would have to start a new account. Plus it created a market for people to sell accounts effectively locked at 50.
Um. OK?
Not sure what you are looking for…
One more time.
When you enter a new playlist for for the first time the system uses a starting MMR from another playlist.
It’s a perfectly reasonable thing to do. If you are D3 in Ranked Slayer and you are going into Ranked Snipers for the very first time then it makes sense to start you at D3.
This doesn’t mean by your Slayer MMR is forever linked to your Snipers MMR. That’s just silly.
Very droll.
I’ve never acted like I fully understand the deeper maths behind TrueSkill2.
But that doesn’t mean you can’t keep reading, learning, and appreciating the concepts.
And there math is quite clear ELO is better than simple game sorting. So use it.