My thoughts on balance.

This post is going to go over my thoughts on balance as a whole. I am of the opinion that there should be no “early game” faction and no “late game” faction between the Banished and UNSC, and my thoughts on balance will be based around this. I feel like I’m going to be pretty fair on BOTH sides, because neither side is without flaw.

As a whole, I think the UNSC is too dominating early game, and Banished is too dominating late game (locusts, anyone?). UNSC just seems to fall off the later a game goes. I think a good part of this can be attributed to the mobility of forces- UNSC vehicles are slow as a wet turd and Banished forces can teleport.

To begin with, general unit balance.

UNSC BALANCE:

Jackrabbits: To begin with, the elephant in the room: Jackrabbits. They require too little commitment to spam out, and unlike infantry rushes (which what I think rushes should be) allows for transitions into tech and fast map control. In my opinion, two things need to be done with them. First, increase the energy cost of their upgrades, and make the support drone tech 3. It takes far too little investment to have a force that can kill any other scout. Second, nerf their damage against turrets. Stronger turrets encourage the use of anti-building infantry, which is what the game intended. This would at least force some more dedicated investment into a rush, so that the turtle- tech- rush triangle would function more effectively.

Marines: Marines are in a fine spot early game, but fall off in utility later. For some reason, combat tech marines lose to pack brother grunts. That just shouldn’t be a thing, given that they cost more. This really hurts UNSC late-game utility. They should do more damage off of combat tech to compete with late game grunt squads.

Kodiaks: Kodiaks are great tech 2 siege units, but fall off as you progress longer into a match. To keep them viable, I feel like the game needs at least some sort of uprade for them on tech 3 to make sure they stay in play.

Scorpions: Scorpions need a blanket buff desperately, again. Part of why the Banished has so much late game utility is because wraiths, and their other vehicle units, are so strong. This makes sense, as wraiths are tech 3 and cost a large amount of recourses. They are meant to be dominating units. The problem is, there isn’t a solid UNSC equivalent. Scorpions cost more in both supply and population that wraiths, yet somehow lose to them. That’s absurd. Not to mention, the canister shell is a complete waste of recourses due to the tank’s seeming inability to use it. I think scorpions need a buff in all areas to increase their combat effectiveness and make them a viable UNSC answer to vehicle play.

Hornets: Might need a slight buff. They just don’t seem to have the damage they should for cost, and lose easily to equivalent populations of banshees. This is another thing that would help UNSC mid- late game. They cost more recourses and population than banshess- so they should stomp them! Same principle as the scorpion applies.

Wolverines: These things suck right now. Make them have splash damage like the Reaver, or shoot faster. You need way too many of them to cope with air, and they cost a lot of recourses.

Retriever Sentinel: For how much this thing costs, it shouldn’t be as bad as it is. Give it a buff so it can at least slightly compete with other super units, and isn’t relegated to nothing more than a last ditch effort. I’d say increasing it’s health drastically is a must, and a slight buff to damage.

Cyclops: Increase movespeed. It simply can’t catch wraiths or locusts, crushing it’s utility. Fix this, and it’s good.

All Spartans: Please, for the love of the god, make them function like spartans. They suck, and need to justify their cost on max level.

Banished Balance:

Honor Guard / Warlord: Both need big buffs. Being the only heroes that can’t hit air, they should deal a lot more damage on ground. Also, being melee single target, they need to hit like trains to justify their costs. Increase their health and damage, and fix the bugs regarding attacking mobile targets. This should help them significantly to see more play.

Atriox’s Chosen: Desperately needs a nerf to it’s health while in cover. It’s borderline unkillable. Fix this, and is seems to perform like a hero should.

Locusts: I think that locusts are the single biggest reason the banished are so, so strong in the late game. They are fast, shoot while moving, and have strong damage against all unit types. Not to mention, they have ridiculous range, and when positioned correctly will level a base before you can get close. They need a heavy nerf, desperately. Heck, they need the single biggest nerf in the game. The locust is the single best unit in HW2, and is absurdly broken. Several things need to be done to it. First of all, it’s imperative that it’s damage against non- structures is nerfed. The locust has a neutral attack modifier on both infantry and vehicles- yellow designation. That needs to change. It’s damage against non-structures to be absolutely minimal. The locust is meant to be a building killing siege unit, not an answer to everything. Furthermore, it’s speed needs to be nerfed. The fact that the locust can outrun literally every unit in the game aside from warthogs and scouts is ridiculous, and needs a fix. Make them slower, so they’re more of a gamble to build like in HW1. Players should be building 3-4 of them as support attackers on bases, not a full army that kills everything with proper micro.

Engineers: The engineers are cheaper than the nightingale, and take less population, but are better in almost every way. Their constant stream of healing means they can rapidly heal anything, even in combat. This is a bit unfair the the UNSC, who don’t have a similar solution in combat. I think that the rate of healing on the engineer needs to be nerfed, to prevent a small cluster of them from making units unkillable. Also, their rate of healing should be drastically reduced on units in combat. This would help nerf the borderline unbreakable Atriox scarab turtles.

Hunters: Same as cyclops, they need to be a tad faster. The hunter is one of the slowest units in the game, and other units can run circles around it. Also, it needs to be able to use the beam cannon while moving- right now, the beam cannon is a waste of recourses because you can’t chase and shoot.

Reaver: I think damage and health are fine. However, the missiles need to retarget after a unit is destroyed, not fly into oblivion. This would make them a more viable solution to mass air.

Blisterback: Missiles need to continue to make impact on a spot after a unit dies. Right now, they’ll kill their initial target, then the remainder of the volley will fly away into the great beyond. This makes the blisterbacks unable to actually kill units, and once a group is on low health they can only kill units one at a time.

Jump Brutes: Ai pathing needs improvement. Like two of them will attack a target and the rest will run in circles chasing butterflies or something. This needs to be fixed to make a brute rush viable.

I’m going to continue to update this for thoughts on buildings and leader-specific issues, but I don’t have time now. Stay tuned!

Nerf the locust and buff the scorpion. Maybe make hunters faster. JR healing drone tech 3.

> 2535441806728301;2:
> Nerf the locust and buff the scorpion. Maybe make hunters faster. JR healing drone tech 3.

I agree, on the locust and scorpion especially. The scorpion is very underwhelming and just can’t compete with banished vehicles.

I agree with most, but disagree on these points:

Locusts, your nerf proposal is extremely harsh. You cannot nerf locusts without buffing Marauders. Marauders are currently underused. Locusts are the only viable vehicle at T2 for Banished.

Engineers, leave them as they are. They cannot be compared to Nightingales, they are totally different in price, functionality, move speed, Y ability. And there’s also something you aren’t taking in consideration: not every Banished leader have a reliable healing leader power.

Reavers, one of the best balanced units in the game. Leave it untouched.

Blisterbacks, I don’t understand very well what you’re trying to explain. They deal area of effect damage.

General: add upgrades to All units.

> 2533274821521504;4:
> I agree with most, but disagree on these points:
>
> Locusts, your nerf proposal is extremely harsh. You cannot nerf locusts without buffing Marauders. Marauders are currently underused. Locusts are the only viable vehicle at T2 for Banished.
>
> Engineers, leave them as they are. They cannot be compared to Nightingales, they are totally different in price, functionality, move speed, Y ability. And there’s also something you aren’t taking in consideration: not every Banished leader have a reliable healing leader power.
>
> Reavers, one of the best balanced units in the game. Leave it untouched.
>
> Blisterbacks, I don’t understand very well what you’re trying to explain. They deal area of effect damage.
>
> General: add upgrades to All units.

I knew I was forgetting something! Marauders definitely need a buff to justify their absurd 400 cost.

As for the Reavers, I agree balance wise they are great, but when they all target one unit, it dies, and the missiles just fly away it wastes a volley.

As elaboration on the blisterback, they deal area damage, yes. However, they attack a point target. When the point target dies, the remainder of the missiles launched don’t connect. As a result, groups of infantry will be left on very, very little health, but only get killed 1 or 2 at a time by the blisterbacks. The missles need to continue to hit a target after it dies rather than just flying away.

> 2533274821521504;4:
> I agree with most, but disagree on these points:
>
> Locusts, your nerf proposal is extremely harsh. You cannot nerf locusts without buffing Marauders. Marauders are currently underused. Locusts are the only viable vehicle at T2 for Banished.
>
> Engineers, leave them as they are. They cannot be compared to Nightingales, they are totally different in price, functionality, move speed, Y ability. And there’s also something you aren’t taking in consideration: not every Banished leader have a reliable healing leader power.
>
> Reavers, one of the best balanced units in the game. Leave it untouched.
>
> Blisterbacks, I don’t understand very well what you’re trying to explain. They deal area of effect damage.
>
> General: add upgrades to All units.

The easiest way to fix locusts are to only allow them to fire while stationary. They essentially become a more mobile, more powerful kodiak that can also attack air. This way, cyclops can run through them (as they should) and you can’t micro around a base outrunning everyone.

Engineers need a health nerf, and need to heal other units slower. Nothing crazy, but as of now they are still OP. Between Atriox and Shipmaster, the covenant are just too strong for most UNSC leaders not named Kinsano or Forge to keep up with.

I wouldn’t mind most of these changes, but I’m with @Blaky when he says those Locust nerfs are too harsh.

I think a reduced speed and damage to infantry and air would be a fair trade. If you nerf they’re vehicle damage then the Banished only answer to mass vehicle is Hunters (though I do like those Hunter changes)

Jackrabbits: shift upgrades to tech 2/3. So they can not be early game rush units.

Marines: they are fine. Their true utility comes from the healing part if you mix in vehicles/ air.

Kodiaks pretty well balanced with blisterbacks. Kodiaks are a lower tech level and cost less population than blisterbacks.

Scorpions: completely agree.

Hornets: they do not need a buff. They only get beat if the banshees have the, already nerfed anti air upgrade.

Wolverines: I think they need to move faster so they can actually go after air units.

Retriever: I think it is fine how it is. While it is a super unit it has just over half the population requirement of the other super units so it should not be able to compete with a condor or a scarab. Also it is super maneuverable.

Cyclops: They are fine. They destroy all vehicles and can shoot on the move and stun most vehicles.

Spartans: they are actually in a pretty good spot.

HG/ Warlord: completely agree.

Chosen: too OP in general. He does significantly more damage to everything than any hero, especially banished heroes. I believe he has more shield/ health than the other banished leaders. He even has very good range. We might need Bungie back to nerf him to a relatively normal level. My friends tested him against condors. He was able to take out 4 condors by himself while garrisoned with 3 stars, with 5 condors shooting at him. No leader powers at all. On a side note he is able to out range vultures in case anyone was wondering. Also he was able to take out a base by itself with 20 shots… before his shields were down from two turrets and 2 siege turrets hitting him.

Locusts: Completely agree but that also brings up the single best way to destroy a base: Vultures. Vultures can decimate any base before any one has any time to react with their Y ability. Vultures can also hold their own against most armies.

Engineers: They are fine as is. The engineers and nightingales are nicely balanced. Both are amazing supports if used well. engineers can deploy a shield for a short time but can only heal one unit at a time. NIghtingales can heal three units at a time and can stop units form attacking by placing down the smokescreens.

Hunters: agree except the speed buff.

Reaver: that is actually a pretty interesting idea.

Blisterbacks: completely agree.

Brutes: As much as i hate rushes I have to agree.They have really short attention spans.

Engineers are OP- If you know Halo an engineer is a non combat form, they need a nerf to health. They should not be in the middle of a huge fight and last so long.

Super Units healing needs nerfed I watched three engineers fully heal a scarab from red within a minute.

Super units are heavily armored and have a lot of health they should not be able to be healed to fast. It is ridiculous. Same goes for any super units and healing

:wine_glass:game is fine. More :wine_glass:? I want new leaders, missions etc… that is what they need to be working on. Not ways of fixing every unit. It will only cause more :wine_glass::flushed:

> 2533274809201791;9:
> Engineers are OP- If you know Halo an engineer is a non combat form, they need a nerf to health. They should not be in the middle of a huge fight and last so long.
>
> Super Units healing needs nerfed I watched three engineers fully heal a scarab from red within a minute.
>
> Super units are heavily armored and have a lot of health they should not be able to be healed to fast. It is ridiculous. Same goes for any super units and healing

I think the issue isn’t the Super unit, for the recourse investment they are meant to be super. But the healing rate definitely needs to be nerfed a good bit, which is why I addressed the engineers.

> 2533274924073601;11:
> > 2533274809201791;9:
> > Engineers are OP- If you know Halo an engineer is a non combat form, they need a nerf to health. They should not be in the middle of a huge fight and last so long.
> >
> > Super Units healing needs nerfed I watched three engineers fully heal a scarab from red within a minute.
> >
> > Super units are heavily armored and have a lot of health they should not be able to be healed to fast. It is ridiculous. Same goes for any super units and healing
>
> I think the issue isn’t the Super unit, for the recourse investment they are meant to be super. But the healing rate definitely needs to be nerfed a good bit, which is why I addressed the engineers.

My post was only about healing units healing ability on super units. Super units are fine as is, yes in investment and time they are meant to be super. Just their rate of being healed needs nerfed.

But with you mention super units health, Anders leader power super sentinel kind of sucks haha I killed two with like 6 wolves in one match and he kept building them. I would take 3 1 star grizzlies and short time gun ships over it, also Cutters air support any day.

> 2533274924073601;1:
> Cyclops: Increase movespeed. It simply can’t catch wraiths or locusts, crushing it’s utility. Fix this, and it’s good.
>
> Hunters: Same as cyclops, they need to be a tad faster. The hunter is one of the slowest units in the game, and other units can run circles around it. Also, it needs to be able to use the beam cannon while moving- right now, the beam cannon is a waste of recourses because you can’t chase and shoot.

Forgot to add, I’ve never felt Hunters can’t counter vehicles (buffing them and nerfing locust at the same time is dangerous), they deal with jackrabbits even when they’re the fastest unit in the game. If you think Hunters are slow, wait till you meet the Shroud. Hunters might seem underpowered only because they get sniped by Locusts (and any smart player will pick teleport as early as possible and wreak Locust). I’m not an UNSC player but I’d think they’re the same as Hunters when it comes to whether or not they need a speed buff. In my opinion Hunters are fine.

> 2533274808735448;8:
> Jackrabbits: shift upgrades to tech 2/3. So they can not be early game rush units.
>
> Retriever: I think it is fine how it is. While it is a super unit it has just over half the population requirement of the other super units so it should not be able to compete with a condor or a scarab. Also it is super maneuverable.
>
> Spartans: they are actually in a pretty good spot.

Got to disagree with these, That Jackrabbit nerf would kill UNSC early game. I’m all for a Jackrabbit nerf but this is not it. If you take out their guns at T1 what vehicle can you use to match other scout units or deal with infantry? Healing Drone must be put on T2 or removed (nobody would get it at T3 so we might as well just remove it completely, and even so, I doubt it’ll be a reasonable T2 upgrade, I think no one would do it at T2 either).

Retriever is trash, I think everyone agrees on that.

Spartans are not in a pretty good spot. Not seeing a single one in 9 out of 10 games isn’t particularly a good spot.

> 2641843709998544;6:
> > 2533274821521504;4:
> > …
>
> The easiest way to fix locusts are to only allow them to fire while stationary. They essentially become a more mobile, more powerful kodiak that can also attack air. This way, cyclops can run through them (as they should) and you can’t micro around a base outrunning everyone.

This is reasonable.

> 2533274809201791;9:
> Engineers are OP- If you know Halo an engineer is a non combat form, they need a nerf to health. They should not be in the middle of a huge fight and last so long.
>
> Super Units healing needs nerfed I watched three engineers fully heal a scarab from red within a minute.

Do you recall ever trying to kill an engineer back in Halo: ODST? those things were tough. And I disagree about Super unit healing. I’ve never had issues dealing with Super Units + Healers. It is only fair that you can heal them back, I mean, you spend so much resources and tech levels and time for it. Super units are completely balanced right now.

> 2533274821521504;13:
> > 2533274924073601;1:
> >
>
>
>
> > 2533274809201791;9:
> > Engineers are OP- If you know Halo an engineer is a non combat form, they need a nerf to health. They should not be in the middle of a huge fight and last so long.
> >
> > Super Units healing needs nerfed I watched three engineers fully heal a scarab from red within a minute.
>
> Do you recall ever trying to kill an engineer back in Halo: ODST? those things were tough. And I disagree about Super unit healing. I’ve never had issues dealing with Super Units + Healers. It is only fair that you can heal them back, I mean, you spend so much resources and tech levels and time for it. Super units are completely balanced right now.

Yes, super units are fine as is health and DPS. Take into account these huge armored machines, a few engineers should not be able to heal them so quick!!!

I am only talking Engineers/ healing units. If you look at the last huge update/ balance update 2/28/2017 in the Update thread from Ske7ch he mentioned something about tanks and wraiths “Incoming healing reduced” this should be on super units

Scarab needs “Incoming healing reduced”

Condor needs “Incoming healing reduced”
-I am UNSC only and 3 marines can heal enough quick enough to get back into the fight

> 2533274821521504;4:
> I agree with most, but disagree on these points:
>
> Locusts, your nerf proposal is extremely harsh. You cannot nerf locusts without buffing Marauders. Marauders are currently underused. Locusts are the only viable vehicle at T2 for Banished.
>
> Engineers, leave them as they are. They cannot be compared to Nightingales, they are totally different in price, functionality, move speed, Y ability. And there’s also something you aren’t taking in consideration: not every Banished leader have a reliable healing leader power.
>
> Reavers, one of the best balanced units in the game. Leave it untouched.
>
> Blisterbacks, I don’t understand very well what you’re trying to explain. They deal area of effect damage.
>
> General: add upgrades to All units.

I play banished as my main currently, and yes locusts need a game changing nerf. It’s not even fair. Especially with maps that have teleporting. They can hit your base, kill it while taking minimal damage due to kiting, followed by teleporting back to defend their own base.

Plus I played a top player the other day who utilized shrouds on top of his kiting locusts… try dealing with that.

> 2533274871557759;15:
> > 2533274821521504;4:
> > I agree with most, but disagree on these points:
> >
> > Locusts, your nerf proposal is extremely harsh. You cannot nerf locusts without buffing Marauders. Marauders are currently underused. Locusts are the only viable vehicle at T2 for Banished.
> >
> > Engineers, leave them as they are. They cannot be compared to Nightingales, they are totally different in price, functionality, move speed, Y ability. And there’s also something you aren’t taking in consideration: not every Banished leader have a reliable healing leader power.
> >
> > Reavers, one of the best balanced units in the game. Leave it untouched.
> >
> > Blisterbacks, I don’t understand very well what you’re trying to explain. They deal area of effect damage.
> >
> > General: add upgrades to All units.
>
> I play banished as my main currently, and yes locusts need a game changing nerf. It’s not even fair. Especially with maps that have teleporting. They can hit your base, kill it while taking minimal damage due to kiting, followed by teleporting back to defend their own base.
>
> Plus I played a top player the other day who utilized shrouds on top of his kiting locusts… try dealing with that.

I’m not necessarily against a Locust nerf.

As per dealing with Shrouds and Locust, it is easy: teleport your engineers+hunters on top of them.

> 2533274871557759;15:
> > 2533274821521504;4:
> > I agree with most, but disagree on these points:
> >
> > Locusts, your nerf proposal is extremely harsh. You cannot nerf locusts without buffing Marauders. Marauders are currently underused. Locusts are the only viable vehicle at T2 for Banished.
> >
> > Engineers, leave them as they are. They cannot be compared to Nightingales, they are totally different in price, functionality, move speed, Y ability. And there’s also something you aren’t taking in consideration: not every Banished leader have a reliable healing leader power.
> >
> > Reavers, one of the best balanced units in the game. Leave it untouched.
> >
> > Blisterbacks, I don’t understand very well what you’re trying to explain. They deal area of effect damage.
> >
> > General: add upgrades to All units.
>
> I play banished as my main currently, and yes locusts need a game changing nerf. It’s not even fair. Especially with maps that have teleporting. They can hit your base, kill it while taking minimal damage due to kiting, followed by teleporting back to defend their own base.
>
> Plus I played a top player the other day who utilized shrouds on top of his kiting locusts… try dealing with that.

Shrouds make it fun lol

> 2533274821521504;16:
> > 2533274871557759;15:
> > > 2533274821521504;4:
> > > I agree with most, but disagree on these points:
> > >
> > > Locusts, your nerf proposal is extremely harsh. You cannot nerf locusts without buffing Marauders. Marauders are currently underused. Locusts are the only viable vehicle at T2 for Banished.
> > >
> > > Engineers, leave them as they are. They cannot be compared to Nightingales, they are totally different in price, functionality, move speed, Y ability. And there’s also something you aren’t taking in consideration: not every Banished leader have a reliable healing leader power.
> > >
> > > Reavers, one of the best balanced units in the game. Leave it untouched.
> > >
> > > Blisterbacks, I don’t understand very well what you’re trying to explain. They deal area of effect damage.
> > >
> > > General: add upgrades to All units.
> >
> > I play banished as my main currently, and yes locusts need a game changing nerf. It’s not even fair. Especially with maps that have teleporting. They can hit your base, kill it while taking minimal damage due to kiting, followed by teleporting back to defend their own base.
> >
> > Plus I played a top player the other day who utilized shrouds on top of his kiting locusts… try dealing with that.
>
> I’m not necessarily against a Locust nerf.
>
> As per dealing with Shrouds and Locust, it is easy: teleport your engineers+hunters on top of them.

Most people don’t build engineers when they see someone rushing locust and once you see the shrouds it is usually to late

"Got to disagree with these, That Jackrabbit nerf would kill UNSC early game. I’m all for a Jackrabbit nerf but this is not it. If you take out their guns at T1 what vehicle can you use to match other scout units or deal with infantry? Healing Drone must be put on T2 or removed (nobody would get it at T3 so we might as well just remove it completely, and even so, I doubt it’ll be a reasonable T2 upgrade, I think no one would do it at T2 either).

Retriever is trash, I think everyone agrees on that.

Spartans are not in a pretty good spot. Not seeing a single one in 9 out of 10 games isn’t particularly a good spot."

I meant to put all scouts should not be able to attack till tech 2.

I don’t think any scouting unit should be able to attack but pushing back all scout offensive options till tech two would actually not kill unsc early game. First and foremost the way to balance that out is increase their vision range allowing for actual scouting, where you can put it somewhere and leave it to spy on the enemy base to see what they are building or drive it around. For unsc you can actually bring out hellbringers and snipers from the barracks at tech 1 so the meta would shift but would bring out more variety in addition to marines from the main base/ mini bases. So i dont see how that would kill the unsc early game at all.

All abilities that drop units in are meant to be more of an oh crap im losing troops button and to continue the push or defense. The retriever in particular costs 24 pop; scarabs/ condors cost 40 pop. Obviously there should not be any doubt who would win that fight. My only problem is that you can only have one retriever on the field at a time. I have not seen anyone do this but if you have a 5v1 custom match and have 5 retrievers vs 3 scarabs/ condors and see who wins that could show if it really is garbage.

Not many people use spartans because matches dont last long. If you can get the spartan veterancy and then switch the spartan from vehicle to vehicle I believe it carries over the veterancy to the vehicle permanently even after the spartan exits.

> 2533274821521504;16:
> > 2533274871557759;15:
> > > 2533274821521504;4:
> > >
>
> I’m not necessarily against a Locust nerf.
>
> As per dealing with Shrouds and Locust, it is easy: teleport your engineers+hunters on top of them.

I don’t get the teleport leader power normally, nor should I have to in order to deal with something like that. I would normally just displace them onto me, but you cant when you can’t even see them. Plus locusts don’t lose that badly to hunters… Hence the need for a nerf.