I’ve always enjoyed duel wielding and never understood why it hasn’t returned. One thing that always bothered me was how the weapons were nerfed to compensate.
I have a different approach to duel wielding: allow us to switch weapons and melee like normal. The only downside to duel welding could be a lack of smart link and longer reload times. Allow the weapons to be fully useful when single wielded. The weapons will certainly be overpowered but they will effectively be power weapons. Now the developer has total control over maps and weapons spawns. Why not just limit the number of duel wieldable weapon on a map? (E.g. only put two SMGs on a map. They’ll be in hard to reach places that become part of the map control) If it becomes too hard to manage, the developer could even disable duel wielding in certain playlists.
I agree that allowing player to holster dualies and allowing players to melee would be necessary changes to make dual wielding a worthwhile mechanic, I think losing the ability to throw grenades is enough of a tradeoff. I also think that dualies should be able to be used while carrying objectives to give them some extra value and allow players to participate in objective play.
That being said I think removing the ability for certain weapons to scope while dual wielded would be a mistake. A big problem I had with how Bungie implemented dual wielding is that it was a close range only affair that didn’t have many tactical application outside of fire moar bulletz which made it rather shallow regardless of what combination of weapons you use.
Imagine if picking up an ODST SMG allowed you to use that 2X scope with any other weapon you paired it with, same with an ODST style Pistol. Dualies should focus on their utility rather than raw DPS when single wielded and when they are dual wielded the extra firepower weapon be balanced by scarcity(as you suggested) and the fact normal weapons can use grenades(preferably Reach/CE strength). Ideally: Single Dualie < Two hander, 2 dualie > Two Hander, 2 dualie = Two Hander + Grenades.
Naturally I don’t think balancing dual wielding in this manner is easy to do, in fact I think it is difficult enough that it is probably not worth it most of the time. That being said I don’t think its impossible either and I wouldn’t mind seeing it explored at some point.
Dual wielding as implemented by Bungie needs to stay dead though.
> 2533274819446242;2:
> I agree that allowing player to holster dualies and allowing players to melee would be necessary changes to make dual wielding a worthwhile mechanic, I think losing the ability to throw grenades is enough of a tradeoff. I also think that dualies should be able to be used while carrying objectives to give them some extra value and allow players to participate in objective play.
>
> That being said I think removing the ability for certain weapons to scope while dual wielded would be a mistake. A big problem I had with how Bungie implemented dual wielding is that it was a close range only affair that didn’t have many tactical application outside of fire moar bulletz which made it rather shallow regardless of what combination of weapons you use.
>
> Imagine if picking up an ODST SMG allowed you to use that 2X scope with any other weapon you paired it with, same with an ODST style Pistol. Dualies should focus on their utility rather than raw DPS when single wielded and when they are dual wielded the extra firepower weapon be balanced by scarcity(as you suggested) and the fact normal weapons can use grenades(preferably Reach/CE strength). Ideally: Single Dualie < Two hander, 2 dualie > Two Hander, 2 dualie = Two Hander + Grenades.
>
> Naturally I don’t think balancing dual wielding in this manner is easy to do, in fact I think it is difficult enough that it is probably not worth it most of the time. That being said I don’t think its impossible either and I wouldn’t mind seeing it explored at some point.
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> Dual wielding as implemented by Bungie needs to stay dead though.
Your point about the zoom makes sense. I guess technically Spartans lock their arms and maintain accuracy even while due wielding. I just figured the zoom could be added for balance but actually using zoom while duel welding would be interesting. I definitely agree that Bungie’s due wielding needs to stay dead. It’s like they had a good idea but they didn’t explore it at all.
> 2535416616313329;3:
> Your point about the zoom makes sense. I guess technically Spartans lock their arms and maintain accuracy even while due wielding. I just figured the zoom could be added for balance but actually using zoom while duel welding would be interesting. I definitely agree that Bungie’s due wielding needs to stay dead. It’s like they had a good idea but they didn’t explore it at all.
Increased recoil is also a useful balancing tool and its not as if Spartans actually need to ADS to use a smart scope since it links directly to their helmet anyway.
I just think that if we want dual wieldable weapons to get regular use it is important that the dualie sandbox isn’t limited to close range only weapons as mid-long such a large part of Halo combat and that increasing damage isn’t the only reason to dual wield. The original incarnation of dual wielding just felt tacked on. You had to give up 2/3rds of the golden triangle just to dual wield. Meanwhile you couldn’t participate in objective play or power weapon control and on top of all that all your options were close range only so you had no way to support your teammates at any real distance. The potential was there to truly add new dimensions to the Halo sandbox, but Bungie implemented in the most shallow way possible.
Duel wielding isn’t exactly a releastic concept since you can’t really focus aim with two weapons simultaneously. But it is something that has been added on more than one occasion in Halo, with Bungie’s explaination claiming that beings with a superior physiology like Sangheilis, and Spartans can pull it off more successfully. I personally didn’t really use it often but I wouldn’t mind if 343 Industries brings it back in-game since alot of fans demand it and it was occasionally cool to see others use it.
> 2533274870308953;5:
> Duel wielding isn’t exactly a releastic concept since you can’t really focus aim with two weapons simultaneously. But it is something that has been added on more than one occasion in Halo, with Bungie’s explaination claiming that beings with a superior physiology like Sangheilis, and Spartans can pull it off more successfully. I personally didn’t really use it often but I wouldn’t mind if 343 Industries brings it back in-game since alot of fans demand it and it was occasionally cool to see others use it.
I’m not one to use the lore argument to justify advanced mobility but duel wielding is consistent with the lore. Spartans can lock their arms and maintain consistent accuracy even while duel wielding. Considering that they have smart-link built in to their visor and they don’t need to aim down the sights, Spartans should be able to duel weild while aiming.
The best way to balance it would to be to just leave it out of the game. Don’t need to fret over balancing something that isn’t there. I’d much rather it just not ever come back, but on the spirit of staying on topic… The second best way to balance it would to have it be a single weapon that’s simply held in both hands.
> 2535416616313329;1:
> I’ve always enjoyed duel wielding and never understood why it hasn’t returned. One thing that always bothered me was how the weapons were nerfed to compensate.
>
> I have a different approach to duel wielding: allow us to switch weapons and melee like normal. The only downside to duel welding could be a lack of smart link and longer reload times. Allow the weapons to be fully useful when single wielded. The weapons will certainly be overpowered but they will effectively be power weapons. Now the developer has total control over maps and weapons spawns. Why not just limit the number of duel wieldable weapon on a map? (E.g. only put two SMGs on a map. They’ll be in hard to reach places that become part of the map control) If it becomes too hard to manage, the developer could even disable duel wielding in certain playlists.
The problem with duel wielding is that no matter how cool it looked doing it, all the weapons pretty much sucked when you didnt have a second weapon. It was also, more or less a cqb concept only. I feel they fixed this with boost in halo 5. At any moment you could boost forward and use your close range weapons in a cqb engagement
> 2533274930223782;10:
> Why can’t they just make it less accurate by like 20% when dual wielding? Problem solved
Given that dual wielding is used in CQC - how do you reduce the accuracy? It’s going to take some serious bloom (nigh on 90%) or recoil to drop accuracy at point blank range.
And even at 80% - it’s just too much fire power… reducing CQC to almost instant deaths.
It all depends on the map. A close quarters map like Lockout they could potentially dominate, but on larger maps like Relic they’d fit well.
Also, I know it’s probably blasphemy around these parts to suggest it, but they could take a page out of CoD’s book and approach dual wielding as an unlocked specialty of a standard issue single wield. That achieves all of the desires and removes most balancing problems.
I feel 343 could look at Ruby’s Halo 2 campaign rebalance in regards to dual wielding. What Ruby did was make it so the weapons that were dual wieldable were perfectly capable on their own, allowing them better range, accuracy and reload time as well as enough damage to make them viable. When dual wielding you sacrifice the accuracy and reload time significantly. He also added that when you fire one at time you maintain some accuracy, letting you pick the moments of firing both in close quarters or one then the other at close-mid and mid ranges.
> 2533274850869596;7:
> The best way to balance it would to be to just leave it out of the game. Don’t need to fret over balancing something that isn’t there. I’d much rather it just not ever come back, but on the spirit of staying on topic… The second best way to balance it would to have it be a single weapon that’s simply held in both hands.
I would consider just removing duel welding from competitive playlists. Leave duel wielding in Campaign, Firefight, social, etc.