My final thoughts on balance + proposals

Games Halo Wars Series
1

After playing the game enough on 1v1 and 2v2 I’ve reached some conclusions (opinions) on the game’s balance. The very first day I played around 11 matches and I thought the balance was perfect.

But then I played some more and realized that is not the case at all, it goes to show just how much testing a game such as this requires and proves the tremendous work it requires to balance it. In that regard I think we can be as understanding as possible of the dev and design team at 343/CA, thanks for the support.

This list will mention the things I consider straight out broken, things that are either uncounterable or downright game dragging, unfair, unfun or things that just don’t require any stretegy whatsoever. And then just a few proposals on how to balance them. I’m of the opinion that cost CANNOT balance this things, but rather a redesign is needed.

  • **Scout Units:**The problem with scout units is that they achieve more than just scouting. Ghosts and Choppers are fine for the most part, they have to be weak enough that they can’t take bases by themselves but strong enough that they can effectively counter infantry.
    The broken aspect is how these units can capture and decapture power nodes. Granting map control really fast and accesible.

Proposal:
-Remove decapture and capture capabilities entirely from scout units.

  • **Jack Rabbits:**Jack Rabbits have been proven time and time again to be extremely effective in open field (outside the boundaries of a base) their cheap cost, speed, mobility, burst damage reliability, self healing are all factors that when you start thinking about them you can’t help but think how a unit like that came to be. It is broken.

Proposal (Pick 2 items):
-Swap the mini frag launcher for a miniturret (essentially removing the unit burst damage).
-Remove the heal drone.
-Reduce the shooting angle to 90 degrees or so in front.

  • **Cloak Generator:**Just like the Siege Turret there’s a reason this device is unlocked at T3, the benefits of it are incredibly strong and can lead to super turtling for hours due to the difficulty countering it and due to the small detection range. I think detection is completely fine, I used to think it should be just like in Starcraft II, but I believe right now it is pretty balanced.
    Getting a small ball of engineers on top of a base is hurting, it already puts you at SUCH a big disadvantage (no heal, reduced population) and ground detection units are very fragile to turrets/units. This building is absolutely broken.

Proposal:
-Cloak base and turrets ONLY. Remove unit cloaking.

  • **Shield Generator:**Not as game breaking as the Cloak Generator, actually I think it is quite fine honestly but if I would change something it would be…

Proposal:
-Shield base and turrets ONLY. Remove unit shielding.

  • **Siege Turret:**Similar to the Cloak generator, this can enable super turtling. Ground attacks are really weakened and air only attacks can be so easily countered.

Proposal:
-Reduce rate of fire.

  • **Resource Diminishing Returns Curve:**This got an adjustment in the latest patch, it was improved but it’s far from perfect or even fair. Getting more than one expansion still feels punishing rather than rewarding.
    Proposal:
    -Can we just remove the whole diminish returns thing? Might be a little drastic, specially in a game with unlimited resources per base, but at this point I think it is necessary to fight off super turtling.

Please let me know what you guys think.

2

Would anybody agree to a locust nerf?

I was proposing a nerf to their movement speed, but I am still unsure.

Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated.

3

> 2533274799223896;2:
> Would anybody agree to a locust nerf?
>
> I was proposing a nerf to their movement speed, but I am still unsure.
>
> Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated.

That is another topic. I don’t consider Locusts broken, draggin or unfair. I’m a heavy locust user and I’ve lost plenty fights, since locust micro is restricted to ball tactics.

Locust might need minor adjustments just like the Marauder, the Warthog, Rangers and other underused units.

The reason I think Locusts are fine at the moment is because they fulfill everything one would like to expect from the Marauder. Nerf the Locust and the Banished essentially loses T2 vehicle play entirely.

4

I agree with everything except the siege turret. They are 1000 supply and in a good place. I believe that normal turrets needs to be changed. They should be less expensive, but do less damage to tier 2 and tier 3 units. Also slightly shorter build times.

Shipmaster will also have to be addressed as he is just overshadowed by Kinsano Jackrabbit rush right now. Everyone is talking about the teleport cooldown which is way too short, but I would like to talk about the scout mine again. You still can not target it manually and your units won’t auto-target it if they are already engaged. I actually lost a game to an unupgraded scout mine recently because it killed around 12 marines. He dropped it in the middle of my engaged units. I attempted to click on the mine, nothing happened, then all my units died. This was a problem before the patch and continues to be one. A lot of people don’t know about or know how to use it, but it is easy to do once learned. Either make the scout mine targetable or make units auto target it (even if engaged) if it is dropped on them.

I would also like to add that watchtowers do not reveal invisible units, not that big a deal but also not working as intended.

Edit: Clarity and Grammar

5

I think the diminishing returns is actually fine as is, branching out is always going to incredibly powerful, because with enough bases, you can have two of every unit producing building, and a war council, while having the maximum amount of supplies possible within the first two bases. I think it forces unit diversity, which is currently a strategy incredibly lacking in Halo Wars 1 and 2.

6

I’m surprised you didn’t mention Displacement. Late game Shipmaster is sooo broken.

7

> 2533274821521504;1:
> After playing the game enough on 1v1 and 2v2 I’ve reached some conclusions (opinions) on the game’s balance. The very first day I played around 11 matches and I thought the balance was perfect.
>
> But then I played some more and realized that is not the case at all, it goes to show just how much testing a game such as this requires and proves the tremendous work it requires to balance it. In that regard I think we can be as understanding as possible of the dev and design team at 343/CA, thanks for the support.
>
> This list will mention the things I consider straight out broken, things that are either uncounterable or downright game dragging, unfair, unfun or things that just don’t require any stretegy whatsoever. And then just a few proposals on how to balance them. I’m of the opinion that cost CANNOT balance this things, but rather a redesign is needed.
>
>
> - **Scout Units:**The problem with scout units is that they achieve more than just scouting. Ghosts and Choppers are fine for the most part, they have to be weak enough that they can’t take bases by themselves but strong enough that they can effectively counter infantry.
> The broken aspect is how these units can capture and decapture power nodes. Granting map control really fast and accesible.
>
> Proposal:
> -Remove decapture and capture capabilities entirely from scout units.
>
>
> - **Jack Rabbits:**Jack Rabbits have been proven time and time again to be extremely effective in open field (outside the boundaries of a base) their cheap cost, speed, mobility, burst damage reliability, self healing are all factors that when you start thinking about them you can’t help but think how a unit like that came to be. It is broken.
>
> Proposal (Pick 2 items):
> -Swap the mini frag launcher for a miniturret (essentially removing the unit burst damage).
> -Remove the heal drone.
> -Reduce the shooting angle to 90 degrees or so in front.
>
>
> - **Cloak Generator:**Just like the Siege Turret there’s a reason this device is unlocked at T3, the benefits of it are incredibly strong and can lead to super turtling for hours due to the difficulty countering it and due to the small detection range. I think detection is completely fine, I used to think it should be just like in Starcraft II, but I believe right now it is pretty balanced.
> Getting a small ball of engineers on top of a base is hurting, it already puts you at SUCH a big disadvantage (no heal, reduced population) and ground detection units are very fragile to turrets/units. This building is absolutely broken.
>
> Proposal:
> -Cloak base and turrets ONLY. Remove unit cloaking.
>
>
> - **Shield Generator:**Not as game breaking as the Cloak Generator, actually I think it is quite fine honestly but if I would change something it would be…
>
> Proposal:
> -Shield base and turrets ONLY. Remove unit shielding.
>
>
> - **Siege Turret:**Similar to the Cloak generator, this can enable super turtling. Ground attacks are really weakened and air only attacks can be so easily countered.
>
> Proposal:
> -Reduce rate of fire.
>
>
> - **Resource Diminishing Returns Curve:**This got an adjustment in the latest patch, it was improved but it’s far from perfect or even fair. Getting more than one expansion still feels punishing rather than rewarding.
> Proposal:
> -Can we just remove the whole diminish returns thing? Might be a little drastic, specially in a game with unlimited resources per base, but at this point I think it is necessary to fight off super turtling.
>
> Please let me know what you guys think.

What is wrong with the turtle squad? I noticed you posted things about rushing as a viable strat so why isn’t turtling?

8

> 2533274808735448;7:
> > 2533274821521504;1:
> > …
>
> What is wrong with the turtle squad? I noticed you posted things about rushing as a viable strat so why isn’t turtling?

I don’t have a problem with Turtling in general, I have a problem with unfair turtling. One single base should NOT be able to hold 5 bases. This was pretty evident pre-patch but it is still an issue post patch. The game is punishing those who get map control (at very late stages of the game, 15 to 20 minutes or later).

> 2533274829733449;5:
> I think the diminishing returns is actually fine as is, branching out is always going to incredibly powerful, because with enough bases, you can have two of every unit producing building, and a war council, while having the maximum amount of supplies possible within the first two bases. I think it forces unit diversity, which is currently a strategy incredibly lacking in Halo Wars 1 and 2.

I can get two of each producing building with two bases and one or two minibases. I usually go for double Factory double Apex + War Council with just two expansions. Getting a third expansion should not be a huge production boost for me but rather an economic boost, and I’m just not getting it at all. A second expansion costs me around 2000/1000 if not more (once I add turrets, watch towers, shields) it takes such a long time for it to payoff that it is usually discouraged to expand a second time.

Unit diversity shouldn’t be forced by punishing a natural strategy. It should be enforced by means of a balanced design across all units.

> 2674682457271996;4:
> I agree with everything except the siege turret. They are 1000 supply and in a good place. I believe that normal turrets needs to be changed. They should be less expensive, but do less damage to tier 2 and tier 3 units. Also slightly shorter build times.
>
> Shipmaster will also have to be addressed as he is just overshadowed by Kinsano Jackrabbit rush right now. Everyone is talking about the teleport cooldown which is way too short, but I would like to talk about the scout mine again. You still can not target it manually and your units won’t auto-target it if they are already engaged. I actually lost a game to an unupgraded scout mine recently because it killed around 12 marines. He dropped it in the middle of my engaged units. I attempted to click on the mine, nothing happened, then all my units died. This was a problem before the patch and continues to be one. A lot of people don’t know about/know who to use it, but I assure you it is very easy to abuse and will become a problem. Either make the scout mine targetable or make units auto target it (even if engaged) if it is dropped on them.
>
> I would also like to add that watchtowers do not reveal invisible units, not that big a deal but also not working as intended.

I haven’t faced many high level Ship Masters so I haven’t really encountered heavy scout mine/displacement play. Though I’ve maybe lost one or two games due to a very well timed displacement. So I think your comment must be pretty accurate, despite me not experiencing it so often.

9

> 2533274821521504;8:
> > 2533274808735448;7:
> > > 2533274821521504;1:
> > > …
> >
> > What is wrong with the turtle squad? I noticed you posted things about rushing as a viable strat so why isn’t turtling?
>
> I don’t have a problem with Turtling in general, I have a problem with unfair turtling. One single base should NOT be able to hold 5 bases. This was pretty evident pre-patch but it is still an issue post patch. The game is punishing those who get map control (at very late stages of the game, 15 to 20 minutes or later).
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274829733449;5:
> > I think the diminishing returns is actually fine as is, branching out is always going to incredibly powerful, because with enough bases, you can have two of every unit producing building, and a war council, while having the maximum amount of supplies possible within the first two bases. I think it forces unit diversity, which is currently a strategy incredibly lacking in Halo Wars 1 and 2.
>
> I can get two of each producing building with two bases and one or two minibases. I usually go for double Factory double Apex + War Council with just two expansions. Getting a third expansion should not be a huge production boost for me but rather an economic boost, and I’m just not getting it at all. A second expansion costs me around 2000/1000 if not more (once I add turrets, watch towers, shields) it takes such a long time for it to payoff that it is usually discouraged to expand a second time.
>
> Unit diversity shouldn’t be forced by punishing a natural strategy. It should be enforced by means of a balanced design across all units.
>
>
>
>
> > 2674682457271996;4:
> > I agree with everything except the siege turret. They are 1000 supply and in a good place. I believe that normal turrets needs to be changed. They should be less expensive, but do less damage to tier 2 and tier 3 units. Also slightly shorter build times.
> >
> > Shipmaster will also have to be addressed as he is just overshadowed by Kinsano Jackrabbit rush right now. Everyone is talking about the teleport cooldown which is way too short, but I would like to talk about the scout mine again. You still can not target it manually and your units won’t auto-target it if they are already engaged. I actually lost a game to an unupgraded scout mine recently because it killed around 12 marines. He dropped it in the middle of my engaged units. I attempted to click on the mine, nothing happened, then all my units died. This was a problem before the patch and continues to be one. A lot of people don’t know about/know who to use it, but I assure you it is very easy to abuse and will become a problem. Either make the scout mine targetable or make units auto target it (even if engaged) if it is dropped on them.
> >
> > I would also like to add that watchtowers do not reveal invisible units, not that big a deal but also not working as intended.
>
> I haven’t faced many high level Ship Masters so I haven’t really encountered heavy scout mine/displacement play. Though I’ve maybe lost one or two games due to a very well timed displacement. So I think your comment must be pretty accurate, despite me not experiencing it so often.

This is without displacement you can just drop it down on troops if they are engaged.

10

A fix to the resource return issue and the super turtle it can cause might be possible without changing the returns. Maybe make it once you research max reinforcements it adds additional population past 120 based on how many bases you have. If they turtle on one base they can only have 120 but maybe you can have 160 and break the turtle by simple troop numbers. Keeps the resource system the same while still adding value and a reason to expand

11

> 2535409667759808;10:
> A fix to the resource return issue and the super turtle it can cause might be possible without changing the returns. Maybe make it once you research max reinforcements it adds additional population past 120 based on how many bases you have. If they turtle on one base they can only have 120 but maybe you can have 160 and break the turtle by simple troop numbers. Keeps the resource system the same while still adding value and a reason to expand

I had thought of something similar to that, even having bases affect leader power cooldowns. The problem I find is that it might not be very intuitive. But it’s an option as well.

12

> 2535409667759808;10:
> A fix to the resource return issue and the super turtle it can cause might be possible without changing the returns. Maybe make it once you research max reinforcements it adds additional population past 120 based on how many bases you have. If they turtle on one base they can only have 120 but maybe you can have 160 and break the turtle by simple troop numbers. Keeps the resource system the same while still adding value and a reason to expand

I like this idea.

And agree with all in the OP bar nerfing siege turrets.

Marauders need a buff.

A machine gun on JRs instead of the mini frag launcher is vital.

13

> 2533274799223896;2:
> Would anybody agree to a locust nerf?
>
> I was proposing a nerf to their movement speed, but I am still unsure.
>
> Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated.

Remember they have already nerfed those twice, not sure if it is as much as nerfs needed still or to find a weakness. They gave them the Wraiths range and they are already a little bit slow.

14

> 2535409667759808;13:
> > 2533274799223896;2:
> > Would anybody agree to a locust nerf?
> >
> > I was proposing a nerf to their movement speed, but I am still unsure.
> >
> > Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated.
>
> Remember they have already nerfed those twice, not sure if it is as much as nerfs needed still or to find a weakness. They gave them the Wraiths range and they are already a little bit slow.

Today I played against a guy who massed locusts, since he rushed tech 2 he got locusts faster than I, so I went for factory+apex. With 2 shrouds and some Banshees I was able to hold him off, the Shrouds negated the few reavers he had. I also had a sensor tower on my base so he couldn’t destroy my base from a distance.

When I repelled his army I had so much energy that I reached t3 and with 3 shrouds, some Banshees, 1 Blisterback and some hunters I pushed him back until he resigned.

Locust ball can be easily countered, you just need to close the distance and counter his reavers if you’re going air.