Minor concern for mouse and keyboard vs controller

Games Halo Infinite
1

From the perspective of the master chief collection with cross-platform, players will use whatever controls they prefer, whether it be mouse and keyboard, or a standard Xbox controller.

My concern is the amount of aim assist and bullet magnetism the controller has over the MKB. The mcc has shown that controllers have an advantage over MKB because of this. I really hope that the aim assist and bullet magnetism is toned down so there’s much more of an even playing field for players that have grown used to the MKB set up. If you dont believe me, go play the MCC and play a game of snipers. It takes a lot more precision to use a mouse than a controller. Anyone else feel this could be an issue for infinite’s PvP?

2

I feel like controller is definitely gonna dominate in Infinite just on the basis that the game features shields. This is an issue that can’t really be fixed without first removing shields. This is the reason I play SWAT specifically with KBM, cause it only requires you to get headshots for kills instead of stripping people of their shields first. You could always split the players by input, but that usually results in a lack of matches for KBM-specific players. Even toning down the aim assist or bullet magnetism wouldn’t make much of a difference. The aim assist was already toned down a ton in MCC from the original 360 versions and it’s still prevalent. Halo was inherently designed around controllers and their ability to utilize aim assist.

3

I have no issue with controller aim assist really. I beat them just fine with my fine tuned mouse sensitivity. A level of accuracy and speed that a controller user can’t ever hope to accomplish. Can I see their bullets curving towards their targets sometimes? Yeah. Do I lose some shootouts that I really shouldn’t have because the game decided to throw them a win unfairly? Yeah. But it happens less often than you think.

4

There was so much aim assist/bullet magnetism in H5 you can see the sniper shot bend to connect the head shot. While it shouldn’t be entirely removed from controllers, it definitely can be toned down some. MNK vs controller will be fine. I play cross platform with my friends who use keyboards and they play decently against whichever input.

5

I really don’t think this could prove an issue.

Thanks to crossplay I’ve been playing lately more often games with some friends of mine
which can’t imagine playing on pc with a controller and they play just as good (or bad)
as I do with an controller.
They have some better games, placing 1st/2nd/3rd in terms of kills as well as bad ones.

So yeah, I don’t think this is such an issue, since it is indeed possible competing with controllers users as a KMB user,
without being a total pro.

6

Magnetism is the same for both inputs. So controller bullets do not curve more.
Aim assist is there to even out how much harder it is to be precise on a thumb stick than mouse, this was invented because fps games were literally considered unplayable on console at the time. On the other hand how much aim assist would be fair could be debatable.
But how fast mouse lets you turn around is also relevant. Putting the sensitivity high enough for that on controller would make it unplayable with or without magnetism, we are comparing 2 cm vs 30 cm or more to fiddle with. A few centimetres large areas on the mouse mat represent only few millimetres on a joy-stick.

You also mention sniping, which I disagree with. When I play MCC now and a MKB player gets a sniper they are beasts(Which I’m fine with). Controller players aim assist is very turned down for snipers (again, millimetre accuracy), while PC players have the same abilities as with other weapons, that’s an advantage for mouse. When I use sniper in pc games I personally find it very easy compared to Xbox, and this is coming from someone who has played Halo for 15 years and barely have any pc gaming experience at all. It has taken me 20 times longer to learn to hit 50% of my snipes in mp in Halo than it has to learn 75% in the PC game. And that PC game even has lower magnetism.
I think both inputs have their strengths and weaknesses.
More about this in this poll post along with more peoples opinions if your are interested.

Anyway back to your question:
It’s not completely balanced but it’s way more balanced than I thought it would be. But that is not the reason I don’t think this will be a problem.

I don’t think this will be a problem in Halo: Infinite because there is an easy solution for everyone who wants to “enable” input based matchmaking and play only with people on equal ground.

7

I play with both, frequently switching between them, and I honestly dont see much of an advantage with the aim assist. With KB you can helicopter around 400x before a controller player turns 90°. Its a fair trade off.

8

My only issue with this is if they tone it down too much by even a fraction of a percent you basically flip the scales and MnK which already is far superior in most FPS would be the king and controller players wouldn’t be able to compete.

9

I play on controller, and I can confidently say after playing against my friends who are using mouse and keyboard that are problems when fighting either.
Controllers will have bullet magnetism and aim assist. This is not going to change. Much of the sandbox is designed around these, so obviously someone playing on a system without them is most likely going to run into some problems. I understand this, but it’s also important to acknowledge that mkb has some serious advantages over controller that should be addressed.
As someone who prefers to play on a lower sensitivity, I cannot describe how annoying it is when I’m trying to hijack a wraith in reach, and they pull a complete 180 and obliterate me. Same with the falcon, able to turn at speeds the vehicle is not made to have. The speed that mkb players can turn at is outrageous and a living nightmare for people on controller who prefer their sensitivity at 3 or such. There needs to be some sort of lag or dead zone that keeps them from turning at the speed of light.
Halo 2 classic is permanently off my mcc list in social because of how easy it is for pc players to perform button combos like a quad burst. One dude who went 24 and 0 in team slayer, when I asked how he was so good with button combos, blatantly admitted he used third party software running in the background to bind his keys to button combos. Now obviously this is purely a halo 2 problem, but it has made its multiplayer nearly unplayable for me.
In my opinion, mkb and controllers both need to be fixed for infinite to make the playing field more even for both. Removing or downgrading bullet magnetism and aim assist without removing the advantages in turning speed on mkb would leave controller players in the same ditch as those who play Fortnite or Call of Duty: completely unable to stand up to the “PC Master Race”, as many who I have had the misfortune of encountering call themselves.
I have nothing against PC players, just trying to bring a new perspective to the topic rather than leaving this an echo chamber of rightfully frustrated pc players.

10

I don’t care enough about ranked to consider it a problem. I like that it lets people use what they prefer and if they care enough about balance juts pick the OP one or the one you’re best with. It’s really not an issue for me.

11

I think getting the balance actually is really important for the health of the game. It’s anecdotal but every single one of my PC friends who tried MCC quit because of the aim assist and went back to games like CS, Overwatch, Siege and Valorant because they felt those were more fair. Looking at communities like the Steam forums or pc gaming subreddits you can see similar sentiment.

The major reason I’m okay with Infinite being free to play is it means we’re gonna get a larger population. Less time searching in ranked, and more balanced matches. If that larger population disappears because aim assist imbalances, we’re just gonna be stuck with a micro transaction heavy game without even one of the major benefits of being free to play.

Pros like Frosty and Snipedown have talked about it as well. They don’t need the amount of aim assist old Halo’s have. The games aren’t being played at 30 FPS anymore. I mostly play with a controller, but I want Infinite to “bring Halo back”, and I feel Halo needs to MnK community more than the MnK community needs Halo.

12

If it becomes an issue, I have a feeling that they’ll just separate the inputs in social. HOPEFULLY, they don’t take an entire year to do so if that is the case. Comp is already separated so that is good.

13

> 2533274815938300;1:
> From the perspective of the master chief collection with cross-platform, players will use whatever controls they prefer, whether it be mouse and keyboard, or a standard Xbox controller.
>
> My concern is the amount of aim assist and bullet magnetism the controller has over the MKB. The mcc has shown that controllers have an advantage over MKB because of this. I really hope that the aim assist and bullet magnetism is toned down so there’s much more of an even playing field for players that have grown used to the MKB set up. If you dont believe me, go play the MCC and play a game of snipers. It takes a lot more precision to use a mouse than a controller. Anyone else feel this could be an issue for infinite’s PvP?

Takes a lot of still to play with a KBM really!!
Im getting really tired of PC players always saying something negative when it comes to playing games. If you play with KBM your are way better at shooters hands down but PC players still boast and say ah yea im just too good.

How about no more crossplay. DONE theres your answer simple. PC plays against PC and Controllers play against Controllers. I dont want to hear the PC palyers moan that they cant play against Controllers because I know its fun to shoot fish in a barrel and make it out that it took skill! Yea right. No more aim assits, no more unfair gameplay no more crossplay and have your games strictly so that all you play against is what you use to play but it wont take long for PC players to think of something else to complain about and all Controllers are trying to do is just try to play a game.

14

> 2535410773397964;11:
> I think getting the balance actually is really important for the health of the game. It’s anecdotal but every single one of my PC friends who tried MCC quit because of the aim assist and went back to games like CS, Overwatch, Siege and Valorant because they felt those were more fair. Looking at communities like the Steam forums or pc gaming subreddits you can see similar sentiment.
>
> The major reason I’m okay with Infinite being free to play is it means we’re gonna get a larger population. Less time searching in ranked, and more balanced matches. If that larger population disappears because aim assist imbalances, we’re just gonna be stuck with a micro transaction heavy game without even one of the major benefits of being free to play.
>
> Pros like Frosty and Snipedown have talked about it as well. They don’t need the amount of aim assist old Halo’s have. The games aren’t being played at 30 FPS anymore. I mostly play with a controller, but I want Infinite to “bring Halo back”, and I feel Halo needs to MnK community more than the MnK community needs Halo.

Agreed. Infinite should have very little to no bullet magnetism for all input methods. A small amount of reticle slowdown is okay but that should be it. Aim assist should never be like how it is in cold war.

Even if the game has very little aim assist, it will still be difficult to balance controller and m/kb because of how terrible analog sticks are for precise aiming. If there’s too much AA then controller will feel unfair, if there’s very little to none then mouse will have a big advantage.

15

> 2533274815938300;1:
> From the perspective of the master chief collection with cross-platform, players will use whatever controls they prefer, whether it be mouse and keyboard, or a standard Xbox controller.
>
> My concern is the amount of aim assist and bullet magnetism the controller has over the MKB. The mcc has shown that controllers have an advantage over MKB because of this. I really hope that the aim assist and bullet magnetism is toned down so there’s much more of an even playing field for players that have grown used to the MKB set up. If you dont believe me, go play the MCC and play a game of snipers. It takes a lot more precision to use a mouse than a controller. Anyone else feel this could be an issue for infinite’s PvP?

I beg to differ. I do much better with mouse and keyboard. most of the time top of the leaderboard. If anything controllers should get the slightest boost of more assist. Idunno seems impossible to balance regardless.

16

> 2533274818433952;13:
> > 2533274815938300;1:
> > From the perspective of the master chief collection with cross-platform, players will use whatever controls they prefer, whether it be mouse and keyboard, or a standard Xbox controller.
> >
> > My concern is the amount of aim assist and bullet magnetism the controller has over the MKB. The mcc has shown that controllers have an advantage over MKB because of this. I really hope that the aim assist and bullet magnetism is toned down so there’s much more of an even playing field for players that have grown used to the MKB set up. If you dont believe me, go play the MCC and play a game of snipers. It takes a lot more precision to use a mouse than a controller. Anyone else feel this could be an issue for infinite’s PvP?
>
> How about no more crossplay. DONE theres your answer simple. PC plays against PC and Controllers play against Controllers. I dont want to hear the PC palyers moan that they cant play against Controllers because I know its fun to shoot fish in a barrel and make it out that it took skill! Yea right. No more aim assits, no more unfair gameplay no more crossplay and have your games strictly so that all you play against is what you use to play but it wont take long for PC players to think of something else to complain about and all Controllers are trying to do is just try to play a game.

I really would like to say a lot of things to you, but instead of saying those things, I’m going to try and be reasonable and civil.
Half of the reason that Halo is even going to pc is for cross play. This is about letting pc players play with their friends who have consoles and vice versa. While there are certainly problems with pc players’ physically impossible turning speed and reaction time, controller players have advantages in aim assist (the part about them having higher bullet magnetism is not true, it’s the same for both) and the fact that the games are designed to be played with them. Removing crossplay is not the solution.
Instead of complaining and asking that something be downright removed like a bunch of Fortnite players, how about we think of ways to solve this problem through tweaking, rather than removing it? Neither will ever be totally equal, but we can give each one advantages and disadvantages to try and hopefully balance it out, sort of like designing an asymmetrical map.
First off, the problems with mouse and keyboard. Their unbelievable speed and reaction time can lead to a lot of unfair deaths for controller users. Mkb players will probably vilify me for what I’m about to say, but it needs to stop: purposely decrease the distance moving the mouse can turn you so that the speed they turn will be like if they were playing controller and their sensitivity was 6-7. I know that one of the main advantages of using a keyboard and mouse is supposed to be higher reaction time, but the speed they can turn themselves and vehicles is obnoxious. Some heavy lag to their turn speed needs to be added so the fastest they can turn is around 6-7 sensitivity, since even on controller 8-10 is unreasonable.
Now for controllers. Aim assist can feel unfair to many pc players (though sometimes it might just be their self image of themselves as shooter gods, this is not the case for your average pc boi.), and can prove frustrating as they lose battles they believe they should have won because of aggressive aim assist. Personally, I think this is an easily fixable problem, as in games like halo reach, the assist is barely noticeable, but it definitely is there. Reach would be the halo game best balanced for both sides if it weren’t for the fact that, on pc, the wraith can 180 and obliterate anyone trying to hijack it before they even see that the tank is facing them, and the falcon turns way faster than it should (look up “tell me you’re playing on pc without telling me you’re playing on pc” on YouTube to see what I mean). All it requires is fine tuning the aim assist so that controller players can stand a chance to pc players without making it aggressive enough that the assist is visible under most circumstances (CoD Cold War made this mistake early in its lifetime).
These two fixes would go so far to reducing the disparity between the two platforms, and overall just make the game better.

17

> 2535410491328677;15:
> > 2533274815938300;1:
> > From the perspective of the master chief collection with cross-platform, players will use whatever controls they prefer, whether it be mouse and keyboard, or a standard Xbox controller.
> >
> > My concern is the amount of aim assist and bullet magnetism the controller has over the MKB. The mcc has shown that controllers have an advantage over MKB because of this. I really hope that the aim assist and bullet magnetism is toned down so there’s much more of an even playing field for players that have grown used to the MKB set up. If you dont believe me, go play the MCC and play a game of snipers. It takes a lot more precision to use a mouse than a controller. Anyone else feel this could be an issue for infinite’s PvP?
>
> I beg to differ. I do much better with mouse and keyboard. most of the time top of the leaderboard. If anything controllers should get the slightest boost of more assist. Idunno seems impossible to balance regardless.

I’ve already written on this topic so I’ll just let my previous answers do the talking. Just know that, as a controller player, and one who has gotten pretty good at these games over the years, the ability for controller players to hold their own against mouse and keyboard and vice versa is very important, and to balance them the best we can, they both should be tweaked to have better chemistry. Best case scenario, I shouldn’t be able to instantly tell whether someone’s using mkb or controller without having to look at their input method in the menu.

18

> 2535432405536907;16:
> > 2533274818433952;13:
> > > 2533274815938300;1:
> > > From the perspective of the master chief collection with cross-platform, players will use whatever controls they prefer, whether it be mouse and keyboard, or a standard Xbox controller.
> > >
> > > My concern is the amount of aim assist and bullet magnetism the controller has over the MKB. The mcc has shown that controllers have an advantage over MKB because of this. I really hope that the aim assist and bullet magnetism is toned down so there’s much more of an even playing field for players that have grown used to the MKB set up. If you dont believe me, go play the MCC and play a game of snipers. It takes a lot more precision to use a mouse than a controller. Anyone else feel this could be an issue for infinite’s PvP?
> >
> > How about no more crossplay. DONE theres your answer simple. PC plays against PC and Controllers play against Controllers. I dont want to hear the PC palyers moan that they cant play against Controllers because I know its fun to shoot fish in a barrel and make it out that it took skill! Yea right. No more aim assits, no more unfair gameplay no more crossplay and have your games strictly so that all you play against is what you use to play but it wont take long for PC players to think of something else to complain about and all Controllers are trying to do is just try to play a game.
>
> I really would like to say a lot of things to you, but instead of saying those things, I’m going to try and be reasonable and civil.
> Half of the reason that Halo is even going to pc is for cross play. This is about letting pc players play with their friends who have consoles and vice versa. While there are certainly problems with pc players’ physically impossible turning speed and reaction time, controller players have advantages in aim assist (the part about them having higher bullet magnetism is not true, it’s the same for both) and the fact that the games are designed to be played with them. Removing crossplay is not the solution.
> Instead of complaining and asking that something be downright removed like a bunch of Fortnite players, how about we think of ways to solve this problem through tweaking, rather than removing it? Neither will ever be totally equal, but we can give each one advantages and disadvantages to try and hopefully balance it out, sort of like designing an asymmetrical map.
> First off, the problems with mouse and keyboard. Their unbelievable speed and reaction time can lead to a lot of unfair deaths for controller users. Mkb players will probably vilify me for what I’m about to say, but it needs to stop: purposely decrease the distance moving the mouse can turn you so that the speed they turn will be like if they were playing controller and their sensitivity was 6-7. I know that one of the main advantages of using a keyboard and mouse is supposed to be higher reaction time, but the speed they can turn themselves and vehicles is obnoxious. Some heavy lag to their turn speed needs to be added so the fastest they can turn is around 6-7 sensitivity, since even on controller 8-10 is unreasonable.
> Now for controllers. Aim assist can feel unfair to many pc players (though sometimes it might just be their self image of themselves as shooter gods, this is not the case for your average pc boi.), and can prove frustrating as they lose battles they believe they should have won because of aggressive aim assist. Personally, I think this is an easily fixable problem, as in games like halo reach, the assist is barely noticeable, but it definitely is there. Reach would be the halo game best balanced for both sides if it weren’t for the fact that, on pc, the wraith can 180 and obliterate anyone trying to hijack it before they even see that the tank is facing them, and the falcon turns way faster than it should (look up “tell me you’re playing on pc without telling me you’re playing on pc” on YouTube to see what I mean). All it requires is fine tuning the aim assist so that controller players can stand a chance to pc players without making it aggressive enough that the assist is visible under most circumstances (CoD Cold War made this mistake early in its lifetime).
> These two fixes would go so far to reducing the disparity between the two platforms, and overall just make the game better.

Your solution to m/kb and analog balance is a very bad idea imo. M/kb shouldn’t be nerfed at all; it could make the game feel awful to play if aiming felt more sluggish. If the player developed the skill to do a 180 flick then perfectly track and kill a target then they should be able to do just that. It would be better to separate the input methods for competitive because there’s not much that can be done without breaking either or.

The only true fix to this issue would be to make controller better than it is now by introducing gyro aim, back buttons as unique inputs, and flick stick controls as options to level the playing field between the two. Console shooter controls have not had any major upgrades since 2001. That’s a pretty big problem imo.

19

it they’re playing on a controller on the demos we’ve seen, I don’t believe it will be that big of a problem. Bullet magnetism doesn’t seem to be too strong so hopefully I can go back to play on a mouse instead of the controller. We’ll find out soon enough though :stuck_out_tongue:

20

> 2535423412908536;18:
> > 2535432405536907;16:
> > > 2533274818433952;13:
> > > > 2533274815938300;1:
> > > > From the perspective of the master chief collection with cross-platform, players will use whatever controls they prefer, whether it be mouse and keyboard, or a standard Xbox controller.
> > > >
> > > > My concern is the amount of aim assist and bullet magnetism the controller has over the MKB. The mcc has shown that controllers have an advantage over MKB because of this. I really hope that the aim assist and bullet magnetism is toned down so there’s much more of an even playing field for players that have grown used to the MKB set up. If you dont believe me, go play the MCC and play a game of snipers. It takes a lot more precision to use a mouse than a controller. Anyone else feel this could be an issue for infinite’s PvP?
> > >
> > > How about no more crossplay. DONE theres your answer simple. PC plays against PC and Controllers play against Controllers. I dont want to hear the PC palyers moan that they cant play against Controllers because I know its fun to shoot fish in a barrel and make it out that it took skill! Yea right. No more aim assits, no more unfair gameplay no more crossplay and have your games strictly so that all you play against is what you use to play but it wont take long for PC players to think of something else to complain about and all Controllers are trying to do is just try to play a game.
> >
> > I really would like to say a lot of things to you, but instead of saying those things, I’m going to try and be reasonable and civil.
> > Half of the reason that Halo is even going to pc is for cross play. This is about letting pc players play with their friends who have consoles and vice versa. While there are certainly problems with pc players’ physically impossible turning speed and reaction time, controller players have advantages in aim assist (the part about them having higher bullet magnetism is not true, it’s the same for both) and the fact that the games are designed to be played with them. Removing crossplay is not the solution.
> > Instead of complaining and asking that something be downright removed like a bunch of Fortnite players, how about we think of ways to solve this problem through tweaking, rather than removing it? Neither will ever be totally equal, but we can give each one advantages and disadvantages to try and hopefully balance it out, sort of like designing an asymmetrical map.
> > First off, the problems with mouse and keyboard. Their unbelievable speed and reaction time can lead to a lot of unfair deaths for controller users. Mkb players will probably vilify me for what I’m about to say, but it needs to stop: purposely decrease the distance moving the mouse can turn you so that the speed they turn will be like if they were playing controller and their sensitivity was 6-7. I know that one of the main advantages of using a keyboard and mouse is supposed to be higher reaction time, but the speed they can turn themselves and vehicles is obnoxious. Some heavy lag to their turn speed needs to be added so the fastest they can turn is around 6-7 sensitivity, since even on controller 8-10 is unreasonable.
> > Now for controllers. Aim assist can feel unfair to many pc players (though sometimes it might just be their self image of themselves as shooter gods, this is not the case for your average pc boi.), and can prove frustrating as they lose battles they believe they should have won because of aggressive aim assist. Personally, I think this is an easily fixable problem, as in games like halo reach, the assist is barely noticeable, but it definitely is there. Reach would be the halo game best balanced for both sides if it weren’t for the fact that, on pc, the wraith can 180 and obliterate anyone trying to hijack it before they even see that the tank is facing them, and the falcon turns way faster than it should (look up “tell me you’re playing on pc without telling me you’re playing on pc” on YouTube to see what I mean). All it requires is fine tuning the aim assist so that controller players can stand a chance to pc players without making it aggressive enough that the assist is visible under most circumstances (CoD Cold War made this mistake early in its lifetime).
> > These two fixes would go so far to reducing the disparity between the two platforms, and overall just make the game better.
>
> Your solution to m/kb and analog balance is a very bad idea imo. M/kb shouldn’t be nerfed at all; it could make the game feel awful to play if aiming felt more sluggish. If the player developed the skill to do a 180 flick then perfectly track and kill a target then they should be able to do just that. It would be better to separate the input methods for competitive because there’s not much that can be done without breaking either or.
>
> The only true fix to this issue would be to make controller better than it is now by introducing gyro aim, back buttons as unique inputs, and flick stick controls as options to level the playing field between the two. Console shooter controls have not had any major upgrades since 2001. That’s a pretty big problem imo.

The amount of skill it takes is irrelevant in my opinion. Mkb currently allows players to do things that are physically impossible irl and can not be replicated on a controller. This makes the game frustrating to play if you run into someone who can turn a wraith or a scorpion’s cannon faster than it is intended to. On controller, Bungie and 343 purposely made these vehicles sluggish to turn to balance them, and pc players can just ignore a key balancing feature of these vehicles thanks to their input method. This does need to be fixed, no matter the skill, as it removes the ability of the devs to balance the game properly for these vehicles.
And even when fighting on foot, there are many cases where such fast turning speed can mess with balancing, like making sword sprees even easier when surrounded, letting a player with a shotgun become an impenetrable fortress when holding down a choke point thanks to their speed, and weaseling your way out of an assassination by simply turning. Even snipers can be annoying since they move the crosshair no less quickly when zoomed all the way in, which is one of the main drawbacks of going to 10x zoom, alongside obviously having less visibility of the greater area.
In terms of fixing controller, while the option of using gyro controls would be appreciated, it can feel unwieldy and uncomfortable to use, and is no counter to mouse and keyboard. As for extra buttons, I really don’t need any more to keep track of, there are enough to deal with as is. The amount of aim assist controllers have is key, and needs to be enough that it affects gameplay, but not so much that it is visible under most circumstances (CoD Cold War comes to mind in terms of games that did not do well in this department).
In terms of competitive, I do agree with you that since competitive requires the game to be as even as possible, the competitive playlists should not have crossplay, but leave it on for social and customs.
Keep in mind that everything I’ve said is my opinion, even if I have tried my best to back it up with reasoning and evidence. However, it is absolutely understandable if you just don’t agree. At the end of the day, we all just want to get a good and balanced halo game that we can all feel comfortable in and have fun playing. That’s the most important thing.