Max Hoberman's Tweets about how Halo 2/3's Ranked system works shows us that he should be the one Designing Infinite's Ranked system

Games Halo Infinite
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The most important takeaway I got from his tweets was how his ranking system allowed for more FUN experiences in multiplayer matches, rather than the most fair matches or matches with really tight tolerance for player matching.

I may be over generalizing, but it allowed you to have to have enough variance in the ranked games that you wouldn’t have as much “sweaty” match up’s where each team is so tightly matched that you can’t even enjoy playing it to begin with.

If you were a rank 42, you might get some matches where you faced 36’s, and some matches where you face 48’s. You could have some games where you sweeped the other team, games were both teams were closely matched, and games where you got swepted by other players. It had Variety. It allowed you to face lesser skilled players, players close to your own skill level, and players above your skill level within a reasonable amount of skill gap.

Now Max did mention that the Halo 2/3 ranking system was “tougher” on newer players, but you know what ?

If Ranked is “too tough” on newer players, they should be learning the game through SOCIAL mode, before trying to tackle Ranked mode. We can’t cater to everyone because then we end up with a game where NOBODY is happy.

I’d rather see a Halo with a ranked system that Favors Players who are already familiar with the franchise and keeps them satisfied, then to make the game Mediocre for everyone, but suitable for “new players” who should be facing higher skill players anyway in order to learn the game and get better.

Anyway, Max’s Tweets about the 1-50 ranking system has solidified the fact that a modified version of his system is what Halo needs. The 1-50 system wasn’t perfect and can be improved and modified, BUT it should serve as the Basis for Infinite’s ranking system. This Bronze-Silver-Gold-Platinum-Onyx system is BORING. It gives you no concept of progression or comparison to other players ranks at a quick glance, whereas being able to see Oh, I’m a level 36 and I’m facing a 28, 32, 38 and 42 is FAST, EASY TO UNDERSTAND and a logical system for readability.

The 1-50 system could literally be combined with Halo 3 ranks for your “Overall Ranking”, with your overall Halo 3 style “Military Ranking” being a culmination of Ranked + Social, where your Halo 2 style 1–50 ranking is just for Ranked ( not social )

It would be:

** Halo 3 style Military rank = XP + Ranked Score + Social Mode Scores

** Halo 2 style 1-50 Rank would just be the representation of your Ranked Score/Skill level.

So your Halo 3 style Military rank would appear next to your 1-50 rank number in ranked Lobbies, and your Military rank would appear next to your gamer card in Social lobbies.

Infinite could even improve the 1-50 Ranking system by adding more ranks, making it 1-100 or any number of tweeks and modifications to fine tune it.

MAX should quite literally be the guy put in charge of Halo Infinite’s Ranked systems and MAYBE I’ll start playing Infinite again.

*** I haven’t played Infinite in over a month because of how stale it has gotten, so 343i really needs to give me a good reason to return.***

That is all.

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I wonder what the metrics and presentation looked like when the concept of “matches of the most equal skill are always better” was pitched and approved to replace Max’s approach.

I completely agree with one sentiment Max makes, which is that a variety of opponents skills in games (sweaty, casual, stompers, stompees, etc) is way more fun than just equal sweaty games all the time.

Slightly related yet slightly not… today I learned that Max Hoberman is the CEO of Certain Affinity. The same Certain Affinity making Infinite’s new Warzone/BR/Unknown mode. I think this is excellent news for this game mode. CA has generally done really well on any Halo content they’ve helped with iirc

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Bingo. The variety of skill levels encountered in Legacy Halo games is what made it interesting. Lesser skilled players helped you practice. Equally skilled players made you struggle. Higher skilled players made you learn.

It also helped that Halo 2 and 3 had AMAZING maps, which allowed you to experience a variety of encounters that were distinct enough to be memorable moments.

Halo 2’ Maps plus the ranked system plus it’s weapon sandbox and modes all working together in unison is what made it so amazing.

That’s what Made Halo 2 and 3 so amazing, was that playing it felt Memorable, especially because you could talk with players in the lobby about highlights of the game match and recruit new teammates easily.

Whereas Halo Infinite has mostly mediocre maps, a Boring Ranking system, huge flaws in the sandbox and weapon balance, HORRENDOUS vehicles ( with the exception of the Ghost, Wasp and Razorback ) and is lacking mode variety, playlist variety, lack of lobby chat/social features and doesn’t feel like the individual elements mesh together for the whole game package to work well.

And you’re right, Max’s team is working on the special Hybrid mode which is why I Believe he is the right person to help turn this game around and fix it.

I love the Battle Rifle, Assault Rifle, Sidekick, Sprint Speed, depth of game settings, and the Equipment is “ok” but aside from that ? Not much else about the game is great. The grenade spam is especially obnoxious. I don’t remember Halo 2/Halo 3 nades being anywhere that powerful

Well said btw

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He has better things to be doing, I’m sure.

But it would be nice if the designers at 343 sat up and took notice of yet more evidence that they have their priorities backwards.

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The system doesn’t need more convolution. A rank system for every feeling/reason/player isn’t feasible.

There’s a difference between Trueskill (forced skill matchups resulting in bell curve placement) and ELO (ladder style progression leading to variance in game matchups).

In all honesty incorporating an ELO playlist alongside a Trueskill playlist would be interesting to see which ones players gravitate towards.

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CA has had a long history with Halo in general, developing H2, HReach, and H3’s multiplayer and some bonus map packs. They’ve also had a hand in H4, which is why H4 is still pretty darn good if you remove the loadouts and killstreaks.

I mentioned this in another thread but I think CA should be taken in to manage the entire MP future for Halo titles.

As for our current MP:
Our Socials should reflect Hoberman’s old H2 matchmaking while our Ranked should reflect Trueskill. I have no wish to be sweaty in Socials, but Ranked may need that competitive sort of pressure to encourage its players.

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I think that game developers across the board have learnt a lot about ranking systems and match-making since the days of H2/H3.

There have been a few presentations at GDC from developers warning others not to make the same mistakes.

What I would take away from Halo 2/3 is the CSR of 1 to 50. Not that it needs to be 1 to 50. It could be 1 to 100. Or Bronze 1 to Onyx 6 (36 levels) or Bronze 1 to Onyx 10 (60 levels).

But the smaller scale is much less grindy than the current 1-1800+.

Nobody hit ‘50’ and then had to start plotting how to manipulating the system to get to 50.1

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CSR should not be a reward and should not have an incentive to be a grind at all. They should completely remove all brackets and simply display a number in regards to CSR, or even make it simpler and show some stats and display the hidden distinct MMR number the system matchmakes with anyway.

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Isn’t there already variance in non-ranked playlists?

Maybe I’m in the minority, but when I play ranked I prefer to play with similarly skilled players.

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I don’t believe so, the MMR system seems to be similar to how Trueskill works.

No I’m kinda the same way too. I just think it would be interesting to see the two systems side by side comparatively.

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I think the key word here is fun… the current trueskill2 that is used in infinite maybe faster at matching you with similar skilled player, but it doesn’t mean it has the best outcome.

‘Slow is not a speed, it’s a mindset!’

Just something I heard the other day… i could relate it to many forms. We all probably could here and there.

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The 1-50 system was a big request for Infinite by a lot of players. 343 said nah, we know best and picked the garbage we have now. They don’t know how to listen, shocking I know.

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Agree 1000 times over. It doesn’t make sense.

I would be happy if they just went from Bronze 1 to Onyx 6.

It depends on what they are asking for.

If it’s just a CSR that goes from 1 to 50, then I could work with that. The current CSR number (1 to 1800+) just promotes a toxic grind. I would prefer there were less levels.

If you want more ranks than 36 (B1 to O6) you could make it 10 tiers per division (B1 to O10) for 60 ranks in total. And I would name the ten Onyx ranks after the to ten ranks in Halo 2.

I do like the six divisions that we have now. They make sense. But unfortunately 343 never promoted why. Each one is a standard deviation on the population skill curve. You know straight away how many people should be in each division (eg. 34% for Platinum). And it’s structured so that each division is 3:1 chance of winning over the division below them.

But if people are asking for the old ranking systems per se; that’s a big no.

Halo 2 was slow. It took forever to find your rank. Like, literally, forever. And in the progress there were a lot of badly matched games.

Halo 3 was better (TrueSkill). But had hidden levels (20 of them) and suffered horribly from rank locking. After a while, you had to start a new account to rank up. Or you just gave up and bought a rank locked ‘50’ that someone else had prepared earlier.

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And still, both games were more fun after the 10-20 games than infinite.

I got locked at 47 in H3, but im pretty sure in 14 years someone could have come up with an idea how to keep the good stuff and fix the bad stuff. :wink:

and: i played social wuth friends not my skill in h3… something which is completely pointless in i finite

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Sorry you’re not having fun. Guess I’m just lucky.

They did. They dropped the 20 hidden levels and upgraded to TrueSkill2. They slowed the drop in your sigma (width and volatility of your MMR curve) and added seasonal placements (which are the perfect antidote to rank locks).

Plus they removed the artificial grind for ‘x’ number of wins on your rank.

But unfortunately they took away the SR ranks of Halo 5. Which was a big mistake as people do need something immediate to grind for.

Really? I’ve been quite happily playing with my friends; Gold to Onyx. And we’ve managed to have a pretty good time.

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Your constant repetition of some hard facts in papers over and over again are getting old.

Guess what, even after reading the paper my conclusion is the same. :slight_smile:

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Just not as old as the ranking systems that we’re talking about.

I just find it funny how people have this nostalgia bias. It doesn’t hurt to remind people that those days were far from perfect.

And only the other day I was watching some youtube videos on barber shop quartets (long story) and one team was doing a medley on contemporary pop “hits” and singing that in 50 years these will be remembered as the “good old days”.

It made me think of these types of Halo threads.

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I didn’t say it were the perfect days. I said in the long run it was more fun. And with about 6000 games in H3 in social and ranked I think I tested it enough^^

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A combined Halo 2 level system with Halo 3/ Halo Reach Military progression style is what it should be.

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OMf-ingG you said the word that must not be said at 343i…, “FUN”.

Halo is not about fun. Halo is all about skills! Fun is for those millions of people playing other games like; Fortnite, CoD Modern Warfare, Counter-Strike, Elden Ring, Lost Ark, Dota 2, Apex Legends, Rust, PUBG, Team Fortress 2, Destiny 2… Made by companies that are making billions of dollars.

Now, it is true, 343i can gouge players via the in-game cash shop. And they did sell the rights for a Halo TV show. But the word “FUN” is not in 343i’s vocabulary.

P.S. Did you notice how “Dual-Wielding” and the Magnum are in the Halo TV show… Something you won’t find in Halo Infinite.

[Edit] As of this post Halo Infinite is not even in the top 10 games on Xbox… On Xbox, let that sink in.

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