Map surfaces and details

Games Halo Infinite
1

One thing that really added depth to Halo 3 was that any feature of the map was essentially accessible. There are still places in maps that I am learning. There are also jumps that require skill to execute, such as jumping from s1 to s2 in Guardian. Or pressure jumps seen in this video Halo 3 MCC: Pressure Launches Explained (Tutorial) - YouTube. Also the epic play right here in the first clip CLUTCHEST HALO 3 ODDBALL OUTPLAY FTW! - Halo MCC Best & Funny Moments #260 - YouTube. These jumps can be difficult to do and are a part of skill expression in the game. Another type of jump is ghost jumps. These are all sweet features of the game that were likely unintentional but have become part of the game. I hope to see some of these features in infinite, at least having all visual features of the map fleshed out with physical surfaces, and getting rid of invisible barriers, and too restrictive timeout zones. The maps timeout areas in halo 3 were far less restrictive than later games. All of these subtle features of maneuvering the maps involve a certain science, which makes the game more interesting and challenging. The philosophy of later games seems to be “Make everything easier”, this makes game play less rewarding.

This next paragraph cover a topic discussed in other posts, but with changes that makes its inclusion justifiable. If you went to a chess board meeting and tried to make it so that rooks on the board can move any direction, this would change the game into something else and essentially ruin chess. Making them move any direction would be more realistic, because soldiers can move in any direction. But the thought of doing this is ludicrous - for good reason. In my mind, doing that to a chess board is analogous to adding sprint to later halo games. The thought of playing guardian with sprint would ruin that maps unique game play. I think in certain game types it is less of a problem than others, such as in BTB. Although, there are vehicles that can be used to transverse the map which makes sprint kind of useless. More of you that became halo reach to halo 5 players, I agree that it would feel bad to have sprint striped from the game. So if the game has a large player base, then why not have two separate game modes for those that like the classic feel and one for the new halo games? This would of course require some maps to be exclusive to the classic mode and some exclusive to new mode. I can’t see my self having a long lasting career with halo infinite if it doesn’t have the classic feel. It would be sweet to see the classic maps in halo 3 brought to halo infinite and then a bulk of others with the new weapons and equipment. The classic playlists in reach were largely malnourished, i think with a good effort this layout could work.

Please comment and share your thoughts,
cheers.

2

You are correct in what you’re saying, the skill jumps in Halo and ghost jumps were largely caused by accident and not in any way intended. Some maps had some absolutely essential jumps like Epitaph and knowing and being able to perform them gives you a huge advantage.

That being said I still think clamber is a good middle ground. It allows them to make the jumps easier, but there are still some that require knowledge or specific placement to achieve. Overall I believe it does help map design options. They have also addressed your issues with out of bounds and I can’t think of a H5 map off the top of my head that even uses boundaries. Clamber means the map can be navigated more intuitively and adds a layer of skill there missing with limited movement options.

I don’t think it is good to have the game feel different amongst different game modes as it is jarring for players. You either have sprint in all playlists or none of them. It would make it so a large portion of players wouldn’t bounce around different playlists. Would also mean the map pool per playlist would be lower which is never good.

Luckily it does appear that sprint has little to no effect on movement speed. We will be able to fully confirm it from the flighting but it does appear it is only slightly faster than default speed and you can fire immediately out of sprint. I think we need to look at sprint in this game more as an animation than a game mechanic. Full sprint speed could still be the same walking speed as default Halo 3 for example so that wouldn’t break Guardian. That being said you do appear to move faster, strafing looks kinda wild now.

3

I think when the simplicity of the original trilogies core movement met with H3’s physics based movement it accidentally created the best movement Halo has ever seen. I doubt Infinite will be able to capture the beauty of H3 movement and how beautifully acceleration is applied to the player.

In actuality I am concerned with Infinite’s movement, from reach onwards movement began being attached to the player rather than through tge sandbox. The addition of clamber in H5 for example I think removed one of the most interesting movement tech from halo, the simple grenade jump. I just prefer movement being changed by the sandbox rather than the sandbox changing around movement.

This post was probably just rambling but to TL;DR this whole thing. Simplistic movement creates more opportunities for players to extend their movement through creative use of the sandbox and I wish Infinite would adopt this in its sandbox

4

Clamber creates a more natural movement to the game. In 2021 we don’t need wooden Spartans bouncing backwards because their toes clipped the edge of the jump.

And it creates a skill gap. If I can from A to B without clambering then I do so faster, more quietly, and with my guns up.

We just need maps designed around Infinites movement mechanics. Jumps that need timing for Infinite’s jump distance and movement / sprint speed. Get them wrong, you spend more time clambering, and you’re on the backfoot.

Stop trying to shoehorn it back into maps that were designed for a game 15+ years ago.

And that’s before we even start talking about spring jumps and their ilk.

5

As for the classic vs modern playlists… I think Infinite needs to be it’s own beast.

Infinite playlists only.

I saw a video recently that showed Infinite’s target audience… the numbers / spending demographics… are the Reach generation of players. So it’s not surprising that the opening gambit of Infinite, season one, is all about remembering Reach. Sadly I think this makes the ‘true classics’ somewhat expendable.

6

> 2535448714052330;3:
> I think when the simplicity of the original trilogies core movement met with H3’s physics based movement it accidentally created the best movement Halo has ever seen. I doubt Infinite will be able to capture the beauty of H3 movement and how beautifully acceleration is applied to the player.
>
> In actuality I am concerned with Infinite’s movement, from reach onwards movement began being attached to the player rather than through tge sandbox. The addition of clamber in H5 for example I think removed one of the most interesting movement tech from halo, the simple grenade jump. I just prefer movement being changed by the sandbox rather than the sandbox changing around movement.
>
> This post was probably just rambling but to TL;DR this whole thing. Simplistic movement creates more opportunities for players to extend their movement through creative use of the sandbox and I wish Infinite would adopt this in its sandbox

I couldn’t agree more, thanks for the contribution.

7

> 2585548714655118;4:
> Clamber creates a more natural movement to the game. In 2021 we don’t need wooden Spartans bouncing backwards because their toes clipped the edge of the jump.
>
> And it creates a skill gap. If I can from A to B without clambering then I do so faster, more quietly, and with my guns up.
>
> We just need maps designed around Infinites movement mechanics. Jumps that need timing for Infinite’s jump distance and movement / sprint speed. Get them wrong, you spend more time clambering, and you’re on the backfoot.
>
> Stop trying to shoehorn it back into maps that were designed for a game 15+ years ago.
>
> And that’s before we even start talking about spring jumps and their ilk.

I keep seeing the same flawed argument floating around, “Its 2021, we can do it, therefore we should”. This comes back to the chess board analogy, we could change the rules of chess to make it more “Natural”, this would effectively strip it of other qualities. Its a shame that in this day and age people with low attention spans need to be catered to. Clambering strips the game of challenging jumps that not everyone can do. Making something easier decreases the skill gap, how exactly would clambering increase skill gap? Skill gap comes from making things harder and having a very large skill spectrum, cutting off part of that spectrum decreases skill gaps. Your rhetoric appeals to nice sounding phrases, such as “Stop trying to shoehorn it back into maps that were designed for a game 15+ years ago.”, my answer to that is: stop trying to sterilize the rich sandbox environment.

Anyway thanks for the reply! What about clamber actually improves the game? How does sprint improve the game play? Is natural better? What do you mean by natural? Try to argue in a way that shows that its better, such as reasons why it improves the skill expression or depth of the game.

8

> 2535447211969528;7:
> I keep seeing the same flawed argument floating around, “Its 2021, we can do it, therefore we should”.

And how is that different from the same ‘tired’ argument of “I wish it was still 2011”.

And I never said we can so we should. I said I that I liked the more natural feel / flow of movement. I said we should because I like it. It adds to the (my) game experience. Subjective and all.

> 2535447211969528;7:
> This comes back to the chess board analogy, we could change the rules of chess to make it more “Natural”, this would effectively strip it of other qualities.

I’m not sure Chess is the best analogy. Yes it has it’s inherent qualities… but it’s hardly setting the world on fire commercially. Apart from Netflix’s excellent “Queen’s Gambit” that is.

How would you market a game of Chess today?

Other sports are happy to evolve and grow. I love Test Cricket… but you can’t ignore the spectacle / popularity of the 20:20 format.

> 2535447211969528;7:
> Its a shame that in this day and age people with low attention spans need to be catered to.

Speaking of flawed arguments… let’s make generalised statements / insults to the opposing view point.

It’s equally a shame that inflexible, concrete thinking stops us moving forward.

> 2535447211969528;7:
> Clambering strips the game of challenging jumps that not everyone can do.

No it doesn’t. You can still crouch jump. Grenade jump. Spring jump.

> 2535447211969528;7:
> Making something easier decreases the skill gap, how exactly would clambering increase skill gap? Skill gap comes from making things harder and having a very large skill spectrum, cutting off part of that spectrum decreases skill gaps.

I would argue that it not so much makes the game easier - just less frustrating. Instead of missing the jump completely you lose speed, make a noise, and can’t shoot for a brief period.

There is still a skill gap. Just a different one.

Shyway has some videos that point out how using spring jumps to avoid clambering gives huge advantages.

Again it comes down to map design to fit the movement mechanics. If you have pathways that skilled players can take that minimise the clambering - they have the clear advantage in movement speed and combat readiness.

> 2535447211969528;7:
> Your rhetoric appeals to nice sounding phrases, such as “Stop trying to shoehorn it back into maps that were designed for a game 15+ years ago.”, my answer to that is: stop trying to sterilize the rich sandbox environment.

I just don’t see how expansion automatically equals sterilisation.

> 2535447211969528;7:
> Anyway thanks for the reply! What about clamber actually improves the game? How does sprint improve the game play? Is natural better? What do you mean by natural? Try to argue in a way that shows that its better, such as reasons why it improves the skill expression or depth of the game.

As I said. Clamber adds an aesthetic and feel to movement that is (to me) important. There is still a skill gap to map movement. Just a different one.

Sprint breaks up the game play. Combined with slide gives you some unpredictability in movement. Helps to break up stodgy game play that revolves around map control. Again, subjective preference for different skill gaps.

There is no way to really argue them a better way. We can see this from the mega-threads on movement mechanics. Subjective bias to your personal views of “what is Halo”.

9

> 2585548714655118;8:
> > 2535447211969528;7:
> > I keep seeing the same flawed argument floating around, “Its 2021, we can do it, therefore we should”.
>
> And how is that different from the same ‘tired’ argument of “I wish it was still 2011”.
>
> And I never said we can so we should. I said I that I liked the more natural feel / flow of movement. I said we should because I like it. It adds to the (my) game experience. Subjective and all.
>
>
> I never said that i wasn’t open to any changes, when did i say that? There are changes that would extend the game and not turn it into something different. New guns, new maps, new campaign, cleaner physics engines (That retain the nuances that we love), etc.
>
>
> > 2535447211969528;7:
> > This comes back to the chess board analogy, we could change the rules of chess to make it more “Natural”, this would effectively strip it of other qualities.
>
> I’m not sure Chess is the best analogy. Yes it has it’s inherent qualities… but it’s hardly setting the world on fire commercially. Apart from Netflix’s excellent “Queen’s Gambit” that is.
>
> How would you market a game of Chess today?
>
> Other sports are happy to evolve and grow. I love Test Cricket… but you can’t ignore the spectacle / popularity of the 20:20 format.
>
>
>
> How is it not a good analogy? As above I mentioned that I am open to changes/improvements.
>
>
> > 2535447211969528;7:
> > Its a shame that in this day and age people with low attention spans need to be catered to.
>
> Speaking of flawed arguments… let’s make generalised statements / insults to the opposing view point.
>
> It’s equally a shame that inflexible, concrete thinking stops us moving forward.
>
>
> That seems to be the trend. Much less people read today opposed to social media. Games are becoming less analytical and more flashy. Instead of just saying that I’m wrong how about you say why I am wrong.
>
>
> > 2535447211969528;7:
> > Clambering strips the game of challenging jumps that not everyone can do.
>
> No it doesn’t. You can still crouch jump. Grenade jump. Spring jump.
>
>
>
> It renders crouch jumps basically useless, and interacting with the map is unnecessary. That’s the point I’m trying to say. It makes the game more organic when you interact with the environment, rather than preprogrammed.
>
>
> > 2535447211969528;7:
> > Making something easier decreases the skill gap, how exactly would clambering increase skill gap? Skill gap comes from making things harder and having a very large skill spectrum, cutting off part of that spectrum decreases skill gaps.
>
> I would argue that it not so much makes the game easier - just less frustrating. Instead of missing the jump completely you lose speed, make a noise, and can’t shoot for a brief period.
>
> There is still a skill gap. Just a different one.
>
> Shyway has some videos that point out how using spring jumps to avoid clambering gives huge advantages.
>
> Again it comes down to map design to fit the movement mechanics. If you have pathways that skilled players can take that minimise the clambering - they have the clear advantage in movement speed and combat readiness.
>
>
> How so?
>
>
> > 2535447211969528;7:
> > Your rhetoric appeals to nice sounding phrases, such as “Stop trying to shoehorn it back into maps that were designed for a game 15+ years ago.”, my answer to that is: stop trying to sterilize the rich sandbox environment.
>
> I just don’t see how expansion automatically equals sterilisation.
>
>
>
> It isn’t expanding anything, its just changing how you do it. To me, its interesting seeing the creative combination of things to get places in maps, jumping off icicles etc. Clambering makes it more preprogrammed.
>
>
> > 2535447211969528;7:
> > Anyway thanks for the reply! What about clamber actually improves the game? How does sprint improve the game play? Is natural better? What do you mean by natural? Try to argue in a way that shows that its better, such as reasons why it improves the skill expression or depth of the game.
>
> As I said. Clamber adds an aesthetic and feel to movement that is (to me) important. There is still a skill gap to map movement. Just a different one.
>
> Sprint breaks up the game play. Combined with slide gives you some unpredictability in movement. Helps to break up stodgy game play that revolves around map control. Again, subjective preference for different skill gaps.
>
> There is no way to really argue them a better way. We can see this from the mega-threads on movement mechanics. Subjective bias to your personal views of “what is Halo”.

Clamber makes map navigation more easy, that seems to be the point of it. I am trying my best to make arguments that aren’t subjective, unless you do prefer a more forgiving and less analytical game play. In that case, there’s no point in discussing this further.

10

Rag doll or other sandbox elements are far more interesting than pre-baked animations.

Additionally, pre-baked animations are something primitive games had. They did it because that’s all they could do.
This pretty much sums up my post.

11

> 2535447211969528;1:
>

100% agree with you OP. Adding sprint was basically them looking at other popular shooters (CoD) and trying to figure out how to snag some of their fan base or make Halo more mainstream (even though it ultimately did the opposite and sales have never recovered to what they were). It wasn’t about making Halo even better Halo, instead it was making Halo something else. Sprint has made every map feel the same because now people are ALWAYS moving around the map sprinting and boosting, there are no advantages spots or tactful places to hold. Newer halos just don’t play as well.

In terms of leaps I 100% agree there too. They made the guns and Spartans feel heavier in the newer games and it totally takes away from a ton of the fun physics of the older ones. I really hope we get leaps back, clamber is such a step backwards.

12

> 2535447211969528;9:
> Clamber makes map navigation more easy, that seems to be the point of it. I am trying my best to make arguments that aren’t subjective, unless you do prefer a more forgiving and less analytical game play. In that case, there’s no point in discussing this further.

Clamber makes movement easier / more forgiving.

That’s part of the point. It makes movement feel more fluid / natural.

But it doesn’t have to make play less analytical.

There is still a skill gap. Just a different one. Whereas you were previously penalised with missing the jump - you are now penalised with a loss of momentum, making a noise, and not being able to shoot. That’s not subjective. Player’s who move with minimal clamber have the clear advantage.

The subjective bit is discussing which skill gap is better and why.