Today, Refinery goes into Matchmaking under the Invasion playlist. to anybody not sure about which map is Refinery, I added a link to a video of it.
Please post any criticisms and feedback about the map here, and if you can, also post possible solutions to the problems you see. With the help I receive, I can make the map even better, so when 343i updates the maps, I can have a very polished version.
It’s a pretty good map, I file shared me and my friends playing it against each other. Some of the best invasion players were in that match.
I like this map its better than the others. I like how the ship back there has a drop shield to pick up you and the core 
Fun map to play on. One issue I ran into so far: on phase 3, I tried to spawn in the laser room but I spawned on top of the building and was killed immediately after the “Return to Battlefield” message appeared. That could become a serious issue.
Oops, sorry for the double post. Look forward to playing this map some more though!
Coming from someone who has played about 2,700 games of invasion, there is 1 major issue with all 4 maps. Why do the Spartans need to die to be able to get their power weapons. This is ridiculous. At t2 the elites can have a ghost and revenant/wraith and Spartans have no way to take them out unless they die so they can get the laser. It’s so stupid. To be able to defend the core phase effectively, Spartans need access to their power weapons. All of the elites vehicles and power weapons are just out in the open but everything for the Spartans is closed off behind shields.
What needs to be changed : remove 1 way shields in front of weapon spawns.
> Coming from someone who has played about 2,700 games of invasion, there is 1 major issue with all 4 maps. Why do the Spartans need to die to be able to get their power weapons. This is ridiculous. At t2 the elites can have a ghost and revenant/wraith and Spartans have no way to take them out unless they die so they can get the laser. It’s so stupid. To be able to defend the core phase effectively, Spartans need access to their power weapons. All of the elites vehicles and power weapons are just out in the open but everything for the Spartans is closed off behind shields.
>
>
> What needs to be changed : remove 1 way shields in front of weapon spawns.
The big problem with this though, is that then Elites can steal the weapons, as seen on Boneyard very often. When this happens, the Spartans are then at a big disadvantage. Also, if I was to remove those shields, then Elites could get into the Spartans’ respawn areas and spawn camp.
> > Coming from someone who has played about 2,700 games of invasion, there is 1 major issue with all 4 maps. Why do the Spartans need to die to be able to get their power weapons. This is ridiculous. At t2 the elites can have a ghost and revenant/wraith and Spartans have no way to take them out unless they die so they can get the laser. It’s so stupid. To be able to defend the core phase effectively, Spartans need access to their power weapons. All of the elites vehicles and power weapons are just out in the open but everything for the Spartans is closed off behind shields.
> >
> >
> > What needs to be changed : remove 1 way shields in front of weapon spawns.
>
> The big problem with this though, is that then Elites can steal the weapons, as seen on Boneyard very often. When this happens, the Spartans are then at a big disadvantage. Also, if I was to remove those shields, then Elites could get into the Spartans’ respawn areas and spawn camp.
As if the Spartans can’t already do that to the elites. If you lose control of your power weapons it’s your own fault. The elites banshee is out in the open for anyone to take and the Spartans can spawn camp the elites with scorpion and banshee if they get ahold of them. You can ask anyone who plays invasion on a regular basis and I’m sure they would agree with me. Team work should be rewarded.
Agree with Vague again, he is absolutely right. You don’t control YOUR weapons you lose. Or make it so everyone’s weapons are protected (I really prefer the former).
Same problem as other maps, crowded LOS makes for confusion and difficulty in game play. Note that Bungie’s original invasion maps, while definately not perfect, allowed a defender to see offense and set up a way to stop them.
These new maps end up all feeling like throw your body at target until target is captured, which is not good invasion.
I have played a lot of invasion and can say that after having played this map a couple of times now, I would prefer any of the older maps (especially if fixes were made to them).
First off, there is no Scorpion on Refinery, but I still understand what you mean. Also, you CAN see the attackers’ spawns from the main base. Thirdly, I remember thinking the default invasion maps were crowded and confusing at first, but after I knew my way around the map, it made sense, and made gameplay more fun. That’s just the way invasion works. If I were to take away cover, other problems would arise, so instead I opted to create a map with more cover, fixing many other problems, and once people learn the map better, the gameplay will seem more organized.
I have now played considerably more on this map, and I apologize to the creator but I will not be voting for this map again.
The confusion on the map is not because I have not gotten famaliar with the layout, but the map is set up in such a way as to reduce LOS to give teams a chance to move around easily. This effectively means that teams that are not good at shooting a gun are able to rapidly move into a location and secure hill time.
To take hill time you should have to shoot the defenders back, to hold hills you should have to shoot the offense back to their spawns. In genereal this map is about getting close and meleeing or grenading as you die. Refinery might work for slayer (although I am skeptical) but for invasion I really do not think this map works.
In the 3rd phase players cannot see out of their base as they exit, and are thereforevery vulnerable to banshees, fustrating ground combat and exaggerting problems with that vehicle.
Also the rocket launcher is in a location that allows humans to control it with minimal chance of loss, effectively securing uncontestable kills. The building to the side of the base should be removed. Rockets should be moved near laser, both should be without shield doors and closer to entrance, base walls should be see through or openings more covered. Attack to base should have serious reduction in obstructions, components (towers?) on maps in 1st and 2nd wave should be considerably reduced in number.
> > > Coming from someone who has played about 2,700 games of invasion, there is 1 major issue with all 4 maps. Why do the Spartans need to die to be able to get their power weapons. This is ridiculous. At t2 the elites can have a ghost and revenant/wraith and Spartans have no way to take them out unless they die so they can get the laser. It’s so stupid. To be able to defend the core phase effectively, Spartans need access to their power weapons. All of the elites vehicles and power weapons are just out in the open but everything for the Spartans is closed off behind shields.
> > >
> > >
> > > What needs to be changed : remove 1 way shields in front of weapon spawns.
> >
> > The big problem with this though, is that then Elites can steal the weapons, as seen on Boneyard very often. When this happens, the Spartans are then at a big disadvantage. Also, if I was to remove those shields, then Elites could get into the Spartans’ respawn areas and spawn camp.
>
> As if the Spartans can’t already do that to the elites. If you lose control of your power weapons it’s your own fault. The elites banshee is out in the open for anyone to take and the Spartans can spawn camp the elites with scorpion and banshee if they get ahold of them. You can ask anyone who plays invasion on a regular basis and I’m sure they would agree with me. Team work should be rewarded.
I think so, but Boneyard is a fantastically bad example, in that every power weapon is clustered close together, giving Elites a massive advantage if the Spartans slip up once. If weapons are spaced better, in that they can’t all be stolen at the same time (I sort of like protected vehicles, however), it woul make for much more complex and diverse gameplay than simply rushing one spot that holds every power weapon or worse:
Protecting weapon spawns with shields…
I can’t help it, i have to post here and say this was my favorite for a number of reasons. The biggest is that I remember the first incarnation of this map and I thought, “No way is he going to get it ready in time for MM submission…” But you did. You pulled it off and did a great job of it.
> Today, Refinery goes into Matchmaking under the Invasion playlist. to anybody not sure about which map is Refinery, I added a link to a video of it.
>
> Please post any criticisms and feedback about the map here, and if you can, also post possible solutions to the problems you see. With the help I receive, I can make the map even better, so when 343i updates the maps, I can have a very polished version.
Do not remove power weapon spawns. Can’t tell you how thankful I am to finally find a designer who actually took to heart the ability to put those in the designated areas. However, in the future, I do recommend being able to switch between spawn zones as situations like I just encountered, leave me a little annoyed my team couldn’t get access to the Spartan Laser.
Found another issue in the same game where the Wraith decided to sit in front of the warthog and falcon spawn and give the only spawn for two of my teammates the ride of their lives the moment they stepped out, effectively disabling all forms of combat for my team and I to use vehicles while the Banshee spawn trapped us to the point we never left our spawns. It angered me too much to step out.
Recommendations:
Beyond that, I absolutely love the map.
> Recommendations:
>
> 1. Roof access for the falcon.
> 2. Banshee spawn nerfed to 60 seconds instead of 30.
> 3. Mobile spawn points for all players in any of the designated power weapon zones.
Also, I would just like to thank everybody for their feedback, positive or negative, because both help me create a better map!
> 2. I don’t see the Banshee spawn needing to be nerfed. I understand why you saw it needing that, due to the spawn-camping, BUT, this occurrence is fairly rare, and if I made the respawn longer, it would throw weapon/vehicle balance out.
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> 3. I’m sorry, but I need to stay adamant on not allowing mobile spawns. I know at first, it seems like a good idea, but in practice it rarely works, because it makes it much easier for everybody to be defending one objective, and not the other (which is augmented when you take into account how large of an incentive a sniper, laser, or rocket is), defeats the purpose of fire-team roles, and makes the team balance more of an issue.
Firstly, I’m really not an anti-vehicle person, but the banshee in key situations is the most powerful vehicle in any combat situation. The reason why I make the call for its nerf is due, in large part, to the circumstances which did arise, not three weeks into your map release. Fact is, your situation rarity example just got thrown into a “potentially common” situation when it occurred with me and I enjoy your map. There are others who do not share this sentiment and still complain, but hey, I’m not here to bicker, just change it to an increased amount. I don’t care if its a five second increase.
Secondly, my team, in conjunction with #3 had no access to our Spartan Laser due to 2 players quitting out and my other team teammates reported they could not get out of the vehicle spawn as A) that was their only spawn and B) A wraith was right in front shooting them the moment they came out of it. They attempted two separate side barrier jump outs and it turned out a single wraith blast killed them both. They were both armed with grenade launchers. They finally resorted to one at a time and turns out the wraith driver splattered the second. I finally stepped in to help them and we lost the match because one guy was left to shoot four enemies while we took care of a spawn trap situation YOU finalized as ok. All the testing, all the modifications, everything you did to make a balanced map just got thrown out the window because of a flaw found early on with your map. Like I said, I LOVE your map, the forging which went into it REALLY shows and I commend you on that, but you seriously need to go into your map, alone, and ask yourself how you wold break it, because this situation wouldn’t have popped up if you took a look around and asked yourself “What if…”. This is easily solved though if you would modify the Tier 3 spawn system.
> Secondly, my team, in conjunction with #3 had no access to our Spartan Laser due to 2 players quitting out and my other team teammates reported they could not get out of the vehicle spawn as A) that was their only spawn and B) A wraith was right in front shooting them the moment they came out of it.
For the first point you made, ALL fire teams have TWO spawn areas, the vehicle bay, and their own spawning area. as regards to people quitting, so the laser was inaccessible, I’m afraid I can’t really do anything about that, because mobile spawns do not work. It is invasion standard to have each team have a designated area, and if I was to change that, I can promise you that you wouldn’t be seeing Refinery in MM anymore. I already explained the issues with movable spawns, and while I am now aware there is an issue present, the alternative issues that would arise, should I allow movable spawns, would far outweigh the current issues. Invasion isn’t a perfect game-type, but as a map designer, I try to do the best I can.
For your last point about the wraith camping the vehicles, I’ll try to make that harder to achieve, but I’m not sure how much I can do. All invasion maps have some vehicle camping.
I agree with everyone who is talking about the four new maps and how badly they suck.
Boneyard and Spire are Bungie’s originals. They are great maps. These new maps are hard to try and learn and I find myself spending half of the game trying to re-learn where everything is and end up dying 100 times before I actually get a hang of the map.
I love just jumping on Invasion with my mates & playing Spire or Boneyard and just having a great time. Speaking of friends. I LOVED having 3 of my mates playing Invasion with me, not 1! Why did they have to change the max local party size? It’s stupid.
> I agree with everyone who is talking about the four new maps and how badly they suck.
> Boneyard and Spire are Bungie’s originals. They are great maps. These new maps are hard to try and learn and I find myself spending half of the game trying to re-learn where everything is and end up dying 100 times before I actually get a hang of the map.
so the maps suck because you don’t know them?
TIP: go into forge and look around on the maps, you’ll find weapon placements, different position and such, just learning the maps in matchmaking is a pain.
> I love just jumping on Invasion with my mates & playing Spire or Boneyard and just having a great time. Speaking of friends. I LOVED having 3 of my mates playing Invasion with me, not 1! Why did they have to change the max local party size? It’s stupid.
its 2PL because the maps don’t support 4PL, if it was 4PL then the maps would be pysically unplayable for anyone with 2 or 3 guests.
> For the first point you made, ALL fire teams have TWO spawn areas, the vehicle bay, and their own spawning area.
I’ve been in matches where my only spawn was a mobile spawn point for my teammate and the vehicle depot. I can’t say the reason behind this, but I can say most of the games did involve a black screen host switch, but for example, last night I played Overgrowth and my sole designated spawn was, you guessed it, the vehicle depot with two full teams and no black screen. This I cannot explain and will not try to, but if your telling me the map was designed with two spawn points on it, than I assume my experience isn’t lying and the map designer isn’t lying, therefore, this is a glitch or bug. Either way, it needs to be addressed.
> as regards to people quitting, so the laser was inaccessible, I’m afraid I can’t really do anything about that, because mobile spawns do not work.
Honestly, that’s just one solution for me, the other would be designing access around a centralized spawn area with limited means to access other areas. I can see making the Spartan Laser exits covered up and simply adding a backdoor to let people get out through the back, simply reversing the design of the map. Fact is, mobile spawn points is a feature which can only add to the effectiveness of a match when you consider its positives and work around that. However, it is when the game glitches and malfunctions which should be taken into mind when designing a map. Fact is, part of being a project manager means to go back and look for the means of failure to happen and leave someone with little to no options originally intended. You need to do this.
> It is invasion standard to have each team have a designated area, and if I was to change that, I can promise you that you wouldn’t be seeing Refinery in MM anymore.
If 343 made the decision to take it out based on those sole grounds when you reworked the map to fit an existing issue already being brought up, than my response would be to contact the Multiplayer Team seeking an official reason why your being penalized when your fixing errors which have been brought to your attention. Once again, that is what I would do.
> I already explained the issues with movable spawns, and while I am now aware there is an issue present, the alternative issues that would arise, should I allow movable spawns, would far outweigh the current issues. Invasion isn’t a perfect game-type, but as a map designer, I try to do the best I can.
No one is disputing your hard work. Everyone wants a map they can enjoy and we see your working on that. BUT… your map will never be perfect or even close, however, this is no reason to stop striving for it. Movable spawns work fine if you take the concept and rearrange your map to fit the circumstances, yes, its difficult and you may or may not have interest, but the real question is: As a forger, are you willing to leave a map in Multiplayer Matchmaking with these flaws which have already been exploited? I don’t need to know the answer.
> For your last point about the wraith camping the vehicles, I’ll try to make that harder to achieve, but I’m not sure how much I can do. All invasion maps have some vehicle camping.