Luck/Chance adds nothing of value to Halo

In Halo Reach, there is a ‘proper’ way of shooting the DMR at mid range (i’d consider mid range to be the length of the gap on the top of countdown). The proper way to shoot at this range is using a cadence, and trying to control your rate of fire to retain accuracy, while gaining slightly faster kill times than a simple 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 cadence would.

There is also a WRONG way of shooting the DMR at this range, and that is FULL AUTO SPAMMING.

Unfortunately for all of us, noobs and pros alike, the DMR was coded exceptionally bad so even if you mis-use the gun by full auto spamming you can still get lucky, and get kills. Currently in Halo Reach, even if you have the first shot at mid range, then follow up with the most flawless cadence, and perfect accuracy, someone can still whip around and beat you by just mashing his R trigger as fast as he can. Because of this, the game feels incredibly sloppy, and often induces rage into the people who see how blatantly suboptimal the DMR’s algorithm for shooting is.

Dont get me wrong now, I absolutely LOVE BLOOM, I just find the way it was implemented in Reach to be ATROCIOUS at best.

There are few things in the Halo series that are more frustrating than getting killed by someone who makes no effort to use a weapon as it was intended to be used, beating you when you were using it flawlessly, simply because they got lucky, and took that chance (or simply didnt know better) and won.

People have said that luck is everywhere in Halo, but if you think about it, its really pretty minimal for the most part, and its almost always completely worthless, and adds nothing of value to the game.

These added luck factors would include:

-Spawns (if your entire team is standing in the same spot, if they are spread out its minimal).
-BR spread in halos 2 and 3.
-Holding down the trigger with the pistol in halo CE to beat someone pulse firing.
-the DMR if someone is spamming.

Aside from these, there really isnt any luck in Halo (if you can think of something, please do share)

I have posed a question to many people who have disagreed with me, but I really havent gotten a STRAIGHT answer, so maybe those of you who disagree with me can answer it DIRECTLY.

> My question is this:
> Why is it better for 1v1 DMR battles, at mid range, with no outside factors (grenades, teammates, etc.), using strafing and DMR’s only, to be:
> Shoot better -> win the DMR battle, unless 1 person is spamming then god knows who will win, regardless of how masterful the non-spammer is. (halo reach)
> OVER
> Shoot better -> win the DMR battle
> ??

If you do intend on answering, please have the courtesy enough to start with “IT IS BETTER this way BECAUSE” to help you guys stay on topic.

Because lets be clear, you CAN get lucky if you spam, regardless of how masterful your opponent is with his DMR. Even if you have the most flawless cadence and accuracy, you can still be beat by someone mashing the trigger as fast as he can around what I have observed to be anywhere from ~10-20% of the time.

I find it astonishing that so many people have defended the bloom in Halo Reach, without looking at who this is really effecting.

If you are a good player, you will probably know that spamming isnt optimal, so you wont use it.

If you are a bad player, you might not know whats best, so you can spam and get lucky sometimes, but most of the time you will get slapped in the face by someone using the gun properly, certainly more so than if you knew that pacing was optimal, and tried to pace your shots to beat your opponent.

So the added luck factor hurts 2 types of people:

-People who dont know better

and

-People using the DMR properly, who get beat by people who dont know better than to spam.

The best part, however, is that the added luck factor in the DMR in Halo Reach does not benefit anyone! There isnt a single person that benefits from this added luck factor other than the kids who would literally never win a SINGLE DMR battle if it wasnt for their use of a GIANT, bloomed-out reticule, and getting lucky with their shots.

So all of this talk, but how do we FIX BLOOM so that it does what it was intended to do, after all this is a Designated MARKSMAN RIFLE, not a Designated MACHINE GUN, like most of our community would like to believe?

2 Ideas to effectively remove the vast majority of added ‘luck’ in the DMR’s Algorithm:

-Make the MAXIMUM BLOOM 200% bigger, while increasing the ‘bloom reset rate’ proportionally. This will make it so that if you spam spam spam, you’ll get the first shot if you are on target, the second shot (probably) if you are on target, then you’ll probably miss every subsequent shot. This alone would SEVERELY punish people who spammed, so much so that they would ghasp start using the gun how it was INTENDED to be used, instead of flailing around with their modded controllers to get lucky ~15% of the time.

-Make the third shot fired at close to MAX SPAM straight up JAM THE GUN. Sure this idea isnt the most elegant, but it sure as hell would stop people from spamming their MARKSMAN rifle like a machine gun, wouldnt it?!

Thanks for reading! If you have any comments, or any other ideas on how we could remove the luck factor from the DMR, while still retaining BLOOM, please share!

No. Bloom works the way it’s intended. How can you say you were pacing your shots just right and he was spamming? You can’t see your opponents reticle and you certainly can’t see his RoF clearly. Perhaps you thought you were pacing at the optimal rate for the encounter, but your opponent still beat you. From this we can conclude you weren’t, your opponent was. You could say, “ZOMG! HE SPAMMED AND WON! ZOMG! ZOMG!” but how do you truly know he “spammed”. Maybe he was just pacing faster than you, pacing at the optimal for the encounter, and that resulted in you losing the battle. Again, you may think you’re pacing at the optimal but if you’re losing 20-30% of your DMR duals than you’re obviously not.

I’ve been playing a fair bit of MLG, and the better players always come out on top. It’s just a shame it’s not me. During my wade through MLG I’ve found that, in 1v1s, the better player always wins. It’s not luck, it’s skill with pacing. The only way I’ve been able to kill the “more skilled pacer” was to catch him by surprise and get the first few shots into him, but on a straight up encounter with no grenades the better player will win!

If you have your mind set that you’re pacing at the optimum for the encounter and you still lose your dual it’s easy to say that the sob was lucky, and bloom was doing you over. More than likely it was because he paced more appropriately than you. That, or lag. I’ve noticed a lot of my headshots don’t register :confused:

Too funny, Can u please teach me the " proper" way to shoot my gun?

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> Too funny, Can u please teach me the " proper" way to shoot my gun?
>
>
>
> <--------------

I don’t know who you’re referring to. There’s a quote button, use it. In the odd case it’s me then no. I can’t teach you the proper way to shoot your DMR. My post didn’t even lead to there being a ‘proper way to shoot your gun’. There’s only an optimal pace for each specific encounter. By gawd I can’t fathom them all!

I’m not declaring myself as an almighty player, and my post shouldn’t com across as so. If it does you’re reading it wrong. All I know is that the current bloom serves its purpose. If it didn’t then by gawd why haven’t Bungie stated anything at all? A patch that changes bloom isn’t going to come out because it’s not broken. You just need to find that sweet spot where the reticule never gets bigger than the spartans body (though, I’ve found some deviations to be quite acceptable) and once you’ve got him to no-shields wait for the bloom to almost reset for the headshot. It’s what I’ve been doing, and whilst I don’t stick to it all the time (I find pacing to be a -Yoink!-!) it serves me well when I do. It’s certainly not the only way, nor is it necessarily the ‘best’ way, but it’s what I do when I decide to pace. I’m not good enough at the game to be declaring an ‘ultimate way’, nor will I ever be. I’m just saying bloom serves its purpose and just because you think a “spammer” beat you doesn’t mean its broken. For all you know he was pacing extremely well for the situation he was in.

I like the replies. A lot more civil than I should be.

Halo has always had the idea that luck and chance should be play a role. That is why the main protagonist is so… Lucky.

These luck factors are controllable in CE and Reach but almost not at all in 2 or 3. I like it when I have control on my chance-factors.

To which of course, all PvsP games, videogame or RL, have elements of chance incorporated into them. It is the most prominent way to promote diversity of play to win. Yes, even Chess. If a player doesn’t take a chance in Chess, the game eventually ends in a stalemate.

But having said that, I find that the internet connections introduce the most amount of luck into any game. Even when you shoot first, it turns out, you might not be the one shooting first. Packet loss connections can cause it to seem like 2 bullets hit you at once… blah blah blah. Connections man, connections.

I like Reach’s mechanics. I blame connections much less and accept strategic/tactical goofs much more. But I still blame my team most of all :wink:

And lastly, Halo: Reach isn’t a bust title. It’s not, not a AAA title because the online population is low. There’s knowing when you have only your core base and when you have a large casual base. Reach doesn’t have a large casual base, it has a very large core base.

> Too funny, Can u please teach me the " proper" way to shoot my gun?
>
>
>
> <--------------

^ this

>

i assure you it is not hard at all to tell when someone is full auto spamming. its not hard at all to tell when people are full auto spamming because you can listen to their gun, and tell their rate of fire from the rate that your shields are depleting.

bloom with the DMR does not work as intended, far from it. i really dont think bungie designed the DMR to be a full auto spam weapon up until mid range (save maybe the last shot for the head).

i think you are under some crazy misunderstanding that some amount of flawless cadence and aim will beat the full auto spammer at mid range 100% of the time if you get the first shot. this could not be further from the truth. even if you have the first shot, and perfect cadence, and flawless aim, someone who is full auto bawls to the wall spamming can still beat you, which is ATROCIOUS for halo. never in my life have i been so off put from 1v1 battles in a halo game. every time i encounter someone in a 1v1 DMR battle i cringe… why? not because i dont have confidence in my DMR abilities, oh no, its that i know that a lot of people will just full auto spam, something where i cannot control the outcome.

if you seriously think that flawless cadence, and flawless aim, and the first shot beats spamming 100% of the time, there is literally no point in arguing with you because you are flat out wrong.

its funny because, a lot of these problems and inconsistencies with the DMR are more apparent at CLOSE to MEDIUM range, where there really isnt a set way to shoot the gun. full auto spam works entirely too well for everything up until medium range (the top of the length of countdown). instead of halo being a game where 2 people encounter each other, then try to use a combination of strafing and aiming prowess to beat their opponent, you just mash the R trigger as fast as you can till they have no shields, then headshot them. it feels incredibly sloppy because of this.

i dont know, maybe you are one of those kids who has never played halos 1, 2, or 3; which seems likely because if you had im sure you’d see just how god-awful the DMR’s algorithm is when it comes to making the game feel ‘crisp’ and ‘clean’. instead of crisp and clean it feels sloppy, and horrible.

>

oh jeez, thy reaper blesses us with his infinite wisdom yet again /sarcasm.

“Halo has always had the idea that luck and chance should be play a role. That is why the main protagonist is so… Lucky.”

are you kidding me? then why arent there more luck factors in any other halo game aside from those listed above and internet connections (good job, you added something of value to a discussion)?

if luck was really meant to be this big thing, or even something worth mentioning, why is it not apparent in ANY OTHER PLACES in multiplayer? yea, i really think the game would be better if 20% of the time grenades didnt work, if 20% of the time your DMR would jam, if 20% of the time your melees dont register (we get enough of that nonsense as it is) /sarcasm.

“These luck factors are controllable in CE and Reach but almost not at all in 2 or 3. I like it when I have control on my chance-factors.”

you dont have full control over your ‘chance factors’ because the chance factor comes from YOUR OPPONENT if he is spamming. i seriously cannot fathom how you think you have even the slightest idea what you are talking about with statements like this. not only is the luck factor in halos 2, and 3 NEGLIGIBLE AT BEST, its effects are the SAME FOR EVERYONE (save maybe the host, who will always have that advantage regardless of the game). bullet spread on the halo 2 and 3 BR is THE SAME FOR EVERYONE, so its NOT AN ISSUE. spamming, on the other hand, only adds a luck factor if people are mis-using their weapon.

" [adding luck] is the most prominent way to promote diversity of play to win. Yes, even Chess. If a player doesn’t take a chance in Chess, the game eventually ends in a stalemate."

-Yoink-. how about a sandbox that has things that make the gameplay more ‘deep’ like bloom (without the terrible factor), and armor abilities that arent completely and utterly broken (like armor lock, evade, and jet pack). those things would ‘promote diversity of play to win’ 10000x more than adding luck to the DMR ever will. why? because this inherent luck factor makes it so people dont want to encounter people who are bad head on because the bad player can just spam his bawls off to win even tho you are clearly shooting with more control and skill. instead, players with skill will try to avoid 1v1 battles with their primary weapon spawn like the plague when they can (this is a first for halo by the way) for fear of someone misusing their weapon to kill them. see, competitive players, and good players play to NOT DIE, EVER. ~10-20% chance that a spammer would beat a pacer who has flawless accuracy and cadence is completely unacceptable for competitive players. this % chance is compounded if you miss EVEN ONE BULLET, where it will jump anywhere from ~10-20% up to 25-50%, which is even worse!

chess doesnt have a luck factor in it. at all. period. people dont ‘take chances’ to win in chess. thats how a child would play. people think out a gameplan, considering all of the possibilities and lines of play, then decide based upon that. its all calculated, absolutely ZERO CHANCE is involved in chess unless you are horrible at it, and just moving pieces sporadically, in which case if you win its probably because you got lucky and the stars lined up, so you won.

“And lastly, Halo: Reach isn’t a bust title. It’s not, not a AAA title because the online population is low. There’s knowing when you have only your core base and when you have a large casual base. Reach doesn’t have a large casual base, it has a very large core base.”

really? from what ive seen the ‘competitive’ players have damn near all given up on this atrocious game. or is the matchmaking system in that game THAT terrible. when i go into matchmaking with even 1 competent friend, i will damn near NEVER get a game against people that are the same basic skill level as me. is it because im just that amazing? i dont think so. it has a lot to do with the fact that the games core game mechanics are all horrible when compared with any other halo game. the only ‘competitive’ players who are left are the ones who, for whatever reason, feel the need to get to the highest rank, despite the game being awful, and those who play the game with intention of going to tournaments to make money playing the game.

> Too funny, Can u please teach me the " proper" way to shoot my gun?
>
>
>
> <--------------

thats my point, the proper way to shoot the DMR should be crystal clear, instead, very few people know whats going on, or what they should be doing to make the gun function as intended. even when you have it all figured out, you will still be beaten by the kid who is just full auto spamming the gun like its a machine gun or something; god forbid you miss even 1 bullet, then that kid will beat you ~33% of the time simply because he gets lucky.

Do we really need Bloom? I’m not trying to start a flame war but honestly what does it provide as a mechanic of the game? My understanding was weapon balance was the issue. In terms of providing an opportunity for the better player to shine I’m not sure that came up as an objective, so it might help explain why it doesn’t seem to work well. It just creates a frustrating experience.
Look, we had a great formula. Not perfect but great. If weapon balance is the problem then perhaps its better to take some of the randomness out of the other available weapons.

> >

Bloom does work as intended, and, if it were possible to have perfect aim, getting the first shot in and then proceeding to pace your shots for a 5-shot kill will leave you the victor.

To prove this theory I went into forge on Countdown and began collecting statistics. Both players were on the highest level of Countdown standing on top of the rails. They were standing on top of the rails to prevent the rail from stopping any bullets hitting the body. There was only one spawn point. So the “test subject” spawned in the exact spot every time and the “shooter” never moved, or altered the place he was aiming at. Now, since we’re talking about having “perfect aim” it’s safe to assume that the reticule is always aiming at the exact same part of the body, never faltering. Thus, if both people are standing still and the shooter is consistently aiming at the same spot it is equal to having “perfect aim”. This is what I got:

Amount of spammed shots needed to kill aiming at the center of the body:

15 13 14 12 11 17 7 9 10 7 10 13 7 10 13 7 9 9 13 11 12 8 9 7 9 16 8 14 10 9 10 13 9 13 10 12 10 12 11 15 12 8 11 11 8 10 15 12 12 10 9 10 12 10 12 16 9 7 12 7 9 10 10 9 12 10 7 9 11 9 15 8 9 9 11 9 9 9 9 10 12 14 8 9 11 13 11 11 10 9 13 10 8 9 7 8 7 7 8 8

Out of 100 tests only 11 of these tests resulted in the spammer being able to kill the opponent in 7 spammed shots (7 being the minimum shots needed to kill an opponent without the use of a headshot). We could say you have a 11% chance of being “spammed”.

But, it might be good to know that in order to spam 7 shots it takes an average of 2.560 seconds, whilst it only takes an average of 2.276 seconds to kill an opponent if you pace for a 5-shot kill. Thus, if the person had perfect aim the pacer aiming for 5-shot kills would always win over a spammer (who also has perfect aim) aiming at the center of the body.

However, I re-did the test, but this time the “spammer” was aiming at the center of the head. This is what I got:

Amount of spammed shots needed to kill aiming at the center of the head:

12 10 10 10 7 7 9 8 7 7 7 8 12 7 8 13 7 7 6 13 10 7 10 12 7 5 6 9 15 9 14 9 8 15 7 8 12 16 6 6 11 6 12 7 12 9 5 9 14 11 10 8 8 5 14 11 13 6 8 11 6 15 6 12 8 8 17 7 17 8 6 12 7 10 13 10 7 10 8 8 8 11 6 7 10 7 12 7 9 5 12 8 6 10 9 12 7 7 10 12

Out of a 100 tests I found that 20 of these tests resulted in the spammer being able to kill in 7 shots. 11 tests out of the same 100 resulted in the spammer being able to kill in 6 shots, and 4 out of the 100 tests resulted in the spammer being able to spam for a 5-shot. It quite surprised me to see spamming at the head resulted in a higher chance of success than spamming at the center of the body. It takes an average of 2.191 seconds to spam 6 shots, and even quicker to spam 5. Both of which are faster than pacing your shots for a 5-shot kill. So, if the spammer had perfect aim and was spamming at the center of the head you have a 15% chance of being killed no matter how good your pacing is. No one has perfect aim though, and I find it harder to keep the head in the center of the reticule when it expands as the “center” becomes more vague the more it expands.

If you don’t believe any of my stats then please, by all means go and do it for yourself. I’m sure you’ll get varying results but non that vary too dramatically and in the end they’d lead to the same conclusion.

All in all, pacing your shots will give you a higher chance of killing your opponent during mid-distance combat than spamming. In the scenario that everyone has perfect aim pacing will always result in a 5-shot kill whilst spamming will only give you a 15% chance of winning. Considering people don’t have perfect aim I’d imagine that 15% will shrink considerably. And, if the pacer happened to get the first shot in, he will win 96% of the time as the only thing quicker (whilst still remaining deadly) than pacing the remaining 4 shots is spamming 5, but to kill by spamming 5 shots has only a 4% chance of becoming a reality, and that’s only if he has perfect aim.

And to your last statement, no. I own and play all the Halos. In fact, I’m one of the few that is still trying to keep Halo 2 alive via Xlink Kai and the likes. I actually hate Reach. I bloody hate bloom and AAs with a passion! But I’m not going to slander them just because I hate 'em. They do what they were intended to do, they ain’t broke.

> > >
>
> Bloom does work as intended, and, if it were possible to have perfect aim, getting the first shot in and then proceeding to pace your shots for a 5-shot kill will leave you the victor.
>
> To prove this theory I went into forge on Countdown and began collecting statistics. Both players were on the highest level of Countdown standing on top of the rails. They were standing on top of the rails to prevent the rail from stopping any bullets hitting the body. There was only one spawn point. So the “test subject” spawned in the exact spot every time and the “shooter” never moved, or altered the place he was aiming at. Now, since we’re talking about having “perfect aim” it’s safe to assume that the reticule is always aiming at the exact same part of the body, never faltering. Thus, if both people are standing still and the shooter is consistently aiming at the same spot it is equal to having “perfect aim”. This is what I got:
>
>
>
> Spammed shots needed to kill aiming at the center of the body:
>
> 15 13 14 12 11 17 7 9 10 7 10 13 7 10 13 7 9 9 13 11 12 8 9 7 9 16 8 14 10 9 10 13 9 13 10 12 10 12 11 15 12 8 11 11 8 10 15 12 12 10 9 10 12 10 12 16 9 7 12 7 9 10 10 9 12 10 7 9 11 9 15 8 9 9 11 9 9 9 9 10 12 14 8 9 11 13 11 11 10 9 13 10 8 9 7 8 7 7 8 8
>
>
> Out of 100 tests only 11 of these tests resulted in the spammer being able to kill the opponent in 7 spammed shots (7 being the minimum shots needed to kill an opponent without the use of a headshot). We could say you have a 11% chance of being “spammed”.
>
> But, it might be good to know that in order to spam 7 shots it takes an average of 2.560 seconds, whilst it only takes an average of 2.276 seconds to kill an opponent if you pace for a 5-shot kill. Thus, if the person had perfect aim the pacer aiming for 5-shot kills would always win over a spammer (who also has perfect aim) aiming at the center of the body.
>
> However, I re-did the test, but this time the “spammer” was aiming at the center of the head. This is what I got:
>
>
>
> Spammed shots needed to kill aiming at the center of the head:
>
> 12 10 10 10 7 7 9 8 7 7 7 8 12 7 8 13 7 7 6 13 10 7 10 12 7 5 6 9 15 9 14 9 8 15 7 8 12 16 6 6 11 6 12 7 12 9 5 9 14 11 10 8 8 5 14 11 13 6 8 11 6 15 6 12 8 8 17 7 17 8 6 12 7 10 13 10 7 10 8 8 8 11 6 7 10 7 12 7 9 5 12 8 6 10 9 12 7 7 10 12
>
>
> Out of a 100 tests I found that 20 of these tests resulted in the spammer being able to kill in 7 shots. 11 tests out of the same 100 resulted in the spammer being able to kill in 6 shots, and 4 out of the 100 tests resulted in the spammer being able to spam for a 5-shot. It quite surprised me to see spamming at the head resulted in a higher chance of success than spamming at the center of the body. It takes an average of 2.191 seconds to spam 6 shots, and even quicker to spam 5. Both of which are faster than pacing your shots for a 5-shot kill. So, if the spammer had perfect aim and was spamming at the center of the head you have a 15% chance of being killed no matter how good your pacing is. No one has perfect aim though, and I find it harder to keep the head in the center of the reticule when it expands as the “center” becomes more vague the more it expands.
>
> If you don’t believe any of my stats then please, by all means go and do it for yourself. I’m sure you’ll get varying results but non that vary to dramatically and in the end they’d lead to the same conclusion.
>
> All in all, pacing your shots will give you a higher chance of killing your opponent during mid-distance combat than spamming. In the scenario that everyone has perfect aim pacing will always result in a 5-shot kill whilst spamming will only give you a 15% chance of winning. Considering people don’t have perfect aim I’d imagine that 15% will shrink considerably. And, if the pacer happened to get the first shot in, he will win 96% of the time as the only thing quicker (whilst still remaining deadly) than pacing the remaining 4 shots is spamming 5, but to kill by spamming 5 shots has only a 5% chance of becoming a reality, and that’s only if he has perfect aim.
>
>
> And to your last statement, no. I own and play all the Halos. In fact, I’m one of the few that is still trying to keep Halo 2 alive via Xlink Kai and the likes. I actually hate Reach. I bloody hate bloom and AAs with a passion! But I’m not going to slander them just because I hate 'em. They do what they were intended to do, they ain’t broke.

these results prove my point to the T.

bloom in reach makes the victor of encounters random if someone is spamming.

this added random factor adds nothing of value, and thats the ENTIRE POINT of my thread.

seeing as how you have just proven there is a luck factor, even if it is only 15%, why dont you go ahead and answer my question posted in the original post. that question alone just decimates any argument you could possibly come up with.

> Do we really need Bloom? I’m not trying to start a flame war but honestly what does it provide as a mechanic of the game? My understanding was weapon balance was the issue. In terms of providing an opportunity for the better player to shine I’m not sure that came up as an objective, so it might help explain why it doesn’t seem to work well. It just creates a frustrating experience.
> Look, we had a great formula. Not perfect but great. If weapon balance is the problem then perhaps its better to take some of the randomness out of the other available weapons.

well, it is hard to see the light thru the clouds with halo reach and bloom.

in halo reach the bloom on the DMR was implemented horribly, so there is no clear cut way to shoot up until mid range, where you should pace with a cadence.

bloom itself is a brilliant idea, and adds a tremendous amount of both skill gap, and game depth, both of which are important for a good game. this being said, in halo reach it does neither, because it was horribly implemented. if bloom worked as intended, there wouldnt be a single person who spammed it at damn near every range except for in your face melee battle ranges. if it did work as intended, it would feel fresh, and clean, and crisp. unfortunately it does not.

> > > >
>
> these results prove my point to the T.
>
> bloom in reach makes the victor of encounters random if someone is spamming.
>
> this added random factor adds nothing of value, and thats the ENTIRE POINT of my thread.
>
> seeing as how you have just proven there is a luck factor, even if it is only 15%, why dont you go ahead and answer my question posted in the original post. that question alone just decimates any argument you could possibly come up with.

The results don’t prove your point at all. A 15% chance of being beaten by a spammer with perfect accuracy is not actually what occurs in the game. Because real players don’t have perfect accuracy so that 15% is diminished to something smaller, and because of the fact that most spammers are panicking it is further diminished. I also like to think that only ‘bad’ players spam, and if they’re bad then their aiming skills aren’t great, even further diminishing that 15%. In the end I imagine the actual chance of being beaten by a spammer is no greater than the randomness factor in the Halo 3 BR screwing you over, perhaps even less.

> My question is this:
> Why is it better for 1v1 DMR battles, at mid range, with no outside factors (grenades, teammates, etc.), using strafing and DMR’s only, to be:
> Shoot better -> win the DMR battle, unless 1 person is spamming then god knows who will win, regardless of how masterful the non-spammer is. (halo reach)
> OVER
> Shoot better -> win the DMR battle
> ??

It’s not better, and that’s why it doesn’t occur often, if ever.

I’m all in favour of having the bloom completely removed, and thus you’d always have the “player with the better accuracy winning” scenario, but Bungie didn’t want that and they’re not going to change it, nor will 343.

> > > > >
> >
> > these results prove my point to the T.
> >
> > bloom in reach makes the victor of encounters random if someone is spamming.
> >
> > this added random factor adds nothing of value, and thats the ENTIRE POINT of my thread.
> >
> > seeing as how you have just proven there is a luck factor, even if it is only 15%, why dont you go ahead and answer my question posted in the original post. that question alone just decimates any argument you could possibly come up with.
>
> The results don’t prove your point at all. A 15% chance of being beaten by a spammer with perfect accuracy is not actually what occurs in the game. Because real players don’t have perfect accuracy so that 15% is diminished to something smaller, and because of the fact that most spammers are panicking it is further diminished. I also like to think that only ‘bad’ players spam, and if they’re bad then their aiming skills aren’t great, even further diminishing that 15%. In the end I imagine the actual chance of being beaten by a spammer is no greater than the randomness factor in the Halo 3 BR screwing you over, perhaps even less.
>
>
>
> > My question is this:
> > Why is it better for 1v1 DMR battles, at mid range, with no outside factors (grenades, teammates, etc.), using strafing and DMR’s only, to be:
> > Shoot better -> win the DMR battle, unless 1 person is spamming then god knows who will win, regardless of how masterful the non-spammer is. (halo reach)
> > OVER
> > Shoot better -> win the DMR battle
> > ??
>
> It’s not better, and that’s why it doesn’t occur often, if ever.
>
> I’m all in favour of having the bloom completely removed, and thus you’d always have the “player with the better accuracy winning” scenario, but Bungie didn’t want that and they’re not going to change it, nor will 343.

do you think it is even remotely hard to keep the gigantic bloomed out reticule on someone and land bullets with the huge bullet magnetism that reach has? because its not. spamming not only beats pacing, it beats pacing often, and consistently at around 10-20% of the time. god forbid you miss EVEN ONE SINGLE BULLET in your perfect cadence, at that point the spammer has a HUGE increase in % that he would win, simply because hes getting lucky. you act like this never happens, and yet, i have noticed it happen in EVERY SINGLE GAME where someone is full auto spamming. its not even about the mid range where its LESS of a problem. melee range up until mid range spamming is actually OPTIMAL, so the entire game has effectively turned into a spam fest.

it happens, it happens often, and its always bungies fault for epic failing at coding the DMR.

even if its 5% (not saying it is, because its clearly more), its the % chance of sh!ttybad added to halo, lets keep it at 0, or less than 1% please.

Think what you will. All I know is that when playing MLG if I spam I’m not going to go good. Pace, then I’ll be owning a few nubs :]

If implemented properly I could support bloom, but its just one of those things thats going to be a pain to fine tune.
The bottom line is, right now, its frustrating. If you pace your shots, you can be beat. If you spam, its a guessing game on whose going to win. Oh wait, the grenade spam takes care of that.
I’m more in favor of removal until someone can do it right. But if you really want to keep it, I see a more rapid increase in bloom followed by a faster reset being favorable.
With respect, I don’t think mlg players enjoy bloom or spam less. Their just good.

> If implemented properly I could support bloom, but its just one of those things thats going to be a pain to fine tune.
> The bottom line is, right now, its frustrating. If you pace your shots, you can be beat. If you spam, its a guessing game on whose going to win. Oh wait, the grenade spam takes care of that.
> I’m more in favor of removal until someone can do it right. But if you really want to keep it, I see a more rapid increase in bloom followed by a faster reset being favorable.
> With respect, I don’t think mlg players enjoy bloom or spam less. Their just good.

completely agree. if they cant make bloom work as intended, with spamming winning less than MAYBE 2% of the time, just revert it to a single shot DMR, or a BR without bullet spread. hit detection is also a must, however. we dont need call of duty gameplay where host matters 200x more than skill ever will.