LOCK THIS THREAD!!!

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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EDIT: This thread has gone from a simple suggestion on how to improve loadouts for Halo 5, to a debate on whether or not to remove all the new features of Halo:Reach and Halo 4 entirely; in other words, it’s gone way off-topic. LOCK THIS THREAD.

Most people seem to agree that as far as Custom Loadouts go, the Plasma Pistol and Plasma Grenade have got to go; they ruin vehicle combat, and even buffing the vehicles back to their Halo 3 glory may not be enough if everyone is still allowed to start with Plasma Pistols & Grenades…

Only one little problem; with these two weapons returned to pick-up only (as they should be) the Covenant will need a new sidearm and a new grenades type for loadouts.

The sidearm is easy; bring back the Plasma Rifle, and give it a good buff so that it can kill as easily as the Storm Rifle… make it a useful weapon in Halo multiplayer again.

For a new grenade type, I’ve come up with the idea of the Needle Mine; basically it uses the same tech as the Needler and Needle Rifle in the form of a small proximity mine.

It would work like the Spike Grenade in that it would stick to anything, including floors and walls; when it explodes, the needles bounce around in confined spaces… and if enough of them land in a target, you get a Supercombine explosion.

Since the ammunition used by the Needler is utterly useless against vehicles, so to would the Needle Mine; toss it in front of even a speeding Mongoose, you get nothing. The needles just bounce off the armor, and the initial explosion doesn’t have enough power to even flip it over, much less damage it.

As with the Pulse Grenade, you’d only be allowed to start with 1; and as it is a mine, not a normal grenade, it would be unaffected by the “Grenadier” Armor Mod.

The Plasma Grenade would still be available as a pick-up only weapon, and would retain it’s current level of power. I would also suggest giving the UNSC a pick-up only grenade type, like the Incendiary Grenade from Spartan Assault.

Tell me what you think.

> > Mines aren’t really conductive to fast-paced gameplay. Feels like you’re trying too hard to make it different, which you don’t have to do, the core concept is already awesome. Just make it detonate on contact with a surface, releasing dozens of needles which home in on nearby enemies.
>
> That was my original idea; a Needle Grenade. But I thought a mine would be more interesting… though I’d go with whatever works. It would be better than Plasma Grenades.

Alternative to the Needle Mine; the Needle Grenade. Same thing basically, except it detonates on contact.

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I’ll tell you what I think.

Get rid of loadouts and that way you don’t need to force any kind of new equipment in. Also hell no to proxy or manually detonated starting equipment.

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> I’ll tell you what I think.
>
> Get rid of loadouts and that way you don’t need to force any kind of new equipment in. Also hell no to proxy or manually detonated starting equipment.

We don’t need to get rid of loadouts entirely. Same as armor abilities; it’s just a feature that needs to be fine-tuned.

There’s only one feature they added in Halo 4 that really needs to be removed, and that’s Personal Ordnance; allowing players to call in power weapons whenever they like and removing weapons on map was taking it too far. But Loadouts can be fixed.

Saying “just get rid of loadouts” is hardly what I’d call constructive. Unless you have any real suggestions to improve or balance loadouts, please go away.

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Wouldn’t it be a Blamite Mine since that is what the Needler and Needle Rifle uses.

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> Get rid of loadouts and that way you don’t need to force any kind of new equipment in.

We don’t need to have covenant reskins of each standard weapon for loadouts to work. It’s just something people insist on.

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> Wouldn’t it be a Blamite Mine since that is what the Needler and Needle Rifle uses.

Needle Mine is easier to say…?

> > Get rid of loadouts and that way you don’t need to force any kind of new equipment in.
>
> We don’t need to have covenant reskins of each standard weapon for loadouts to work. It’s just something people insist on.

Not sure what you’re trying to say. The Plasma Rifle and my Needle Mine idea aren’t re-skins… but the Plasma Pistol and Plasma Grenade have already proven themselves overpowered for loadouts. But the Covenant need something to replace them, especially if they bring back Invasion (which I’m also hoping for).

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Mines aren’t really conductive to fast-paced gameplay. Feels like you’re trying too hard to make it different, which you don’t have to do, the core concept is already awesome. Just make it detonate on contact with a surface, releasing dozens of needles which home in on nearby enemies.

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> Not sure what you’re trying to say. The Plasma Rifle and my Needle Mine idea aren’t re-skins… but the Plasma Pistol and Plasma Grenade have already proven themselves overpowered for loadouts. But the Covenant need something to replace them, especially if they bring back Invasion (which I’m also hoping for).

I was just countering his general attitude about loadouts, but honestly, they are. At least the Plasma Rifle is. It’s just a blue SMG.

The mine is fairly unique.

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> Mines aren’t really conductive to fast-paced gameplay. Feels like you’re trying too hard to make it different, which you don’t have to do, the core concept is already awesome. Just make it detonate on contact with a surface, releasing dozens of needles which home in on nearby enemies.

That was my original idea; a Needle Grenade. But I thought a mine would be more interesting… though I’d go with whatever works. It would be better than Plasma Grenades.

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Why does everyone keep suggesting we replace the PP with the PR? I don’t even see how that makes sense.

Yes they’re both covenant weapons but that doesn’t make the PR a viable replacement for the PP. The PR is an automatic so personally I think it and the SMG would serve better as Bolt shot replacements than PP replacements. I suppose it does have shield draining but it’s an automatic weapon designed to kill, not something designed to weaken your opponent so that you can can get the finishing blow with your BR.

Secondaries in load outs work best when they’re designed to compensate and work with the primary paired up with them. A prime example being the AR-Magnum combo.

In Halo 4 there could have been the BR/CC-PP combo. Medium range rifles already have usefulness in every range but they’re at a disadvantage in close range and long range. The enemy weakening edge that the PP could have given them would have done well to compensate for that. That didn’t happen of course because the Bolt shot was a way better option and the PPs EMP was way too tempting not to bring onto vehicles maps with a DMR.

If load outs are going to work than 343 need to get the relationships between the primaries and secondaries right this time and that means getting an enemy weakener that is going to work well when paired up with a medium range rifle.

Ideally IMO we keep the PP in load outs and return it to it’s CE iteration. This version didn’t EMP vehicles, instead the charged bolt would stick to the player and continuously damage the victim. This way the PP retains it’s enemy weakener property, doesn’t hurt vehicle game play and it’ll also make commendation kills easier considering that the charged bolt has the potential to kill. Three birds, one stone.

Then 343 could bring back the Grenade launcher as well as introducing new map pick ups that have EMP functions in order to keep the mechanic in the game.

If that doesn’t work for you guys and we simply must keep the PP the same for sake of tradition and banish it to the map then I suggest a new enemy weakener such as a Flame pistol or some kind of Forerunner weapon that can be paired up with the medium range rifles.

I’m all for the PR being a secondary though. But as a close range secondary that replaces the Bolt shot and can be paired up with long range rifles like the DMR and NR, not an enemy weakener. Though I have to ask why you think it’s a good idea to give it as much power as a primary like the SR? it’s a secondary it’s meant to be weaker.

I think we shouldn’t have to remove PGs from load outs either. If we take the EMP out of the equation then that solves half the problem. Then we should only be allowed to spawn with one. Another suggestion that came from Fos Kuvol was to make the PGs only become sticky a little bit after being thrown. This would end suicide sticks and make the grenade much harder to use and require more timing.

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> Why does everyone keep suggesting we replace the PP with the PR? I don’t even see how that makes sense.

That oversized wall of text was really unnecessary.

We can’t have an EMP weapon as a secondary, it breaks vehicle gameplay. Besides which, the Plasma Pistol in Halo 4 is all but useless for actually killing an opponent by itself; and that’s what a secondary weapon is supposed to be, something you can fall back on if you run out of ammo in your primary weapon.

The Plasma Rifle fits the bill nicely; or it would, if it got a little damage buff. Being a fully-automatic secondary weapon would set it apart from the Magnum and Boltshot.

Plasma Grenades are just as bad; they cannot be in loadouts. Even if you only started with 1, it wouldn’t be enough when it comes to vehicles; all the vehicles make for big targets, they’re too easily stuck, especially in the narrow confines of Halo 4’s vehicle maps. Even returning to the vehicle health system from Halo 3 would not be enough unless both the Plasma Pistol & Plasma Grenade are gone from loadouts.

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I believe this video sums up view on a “needle mine”:

Loadouts need go no further than primary and secondary.

AR/BR
CC/SR
Molten rifle/Suppressor*

Secondaries
Magnum/SMG
Needle Pistol/Plasma Rifle
Hardlight Repeater*

The Molten Rifle:
https://forums.halowaypoint.com/yaf_postsm2809327_Z-717-Molten-Rifle--A-LR-2x-Scope-Counterpart.aspx#post2809327

Suppressor:
The Suppressor becomes quite different to the Halo 4 Z-130 model, as it now, the further you hold the trigger in, the faster the fire rate, but it has more bloom, which means the weapon can manipulated in accuracy on two levels, unlike any other weapon. I think the weapon that even bares a small link to this is the Plasma repeater, but it still feels different.

Hardlight Repeater:
Blurring the lines between automatic and precision, this weapon is a 7 shot kill with well balanced vertical recoil, it has a kill time of 1.33 seconds, and a fire rate of 1 shot every 0.19 seconds. The weapons skill gap comes from knowing that aiming at the chest initially and letting the vertical recoil move towards the head. with no scope, it fits among both Fully automatics and Precision weapon, it is unique in that it is properly automatic, not just barely.

SMG:
The SMG would not be a weaker AR, it would out preform it at extreme close range and fail to match it outside of it.

Plasma Rifle:
The Plasma Rifle Would Do less over all damage than the SR at any range, but would gain it’s CE stun effect back

Needle Pistol would be a NR with a lower mag size and no scope, but to make up for that, it can kill an unshielded foe very quickly even without a headshot. this is because the health damage of a carbine cannot match the 3 needles in a unshield foe super combine of the needle pistol.

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> That oversized wall of text was really unnecessary.
>
> We can’t have an EMP weapon as a secondary, it breaks vehicle gameplay. Besides which, the Plasma Pistol in Halo 4 is all but useless for actually killing an opponent by itself; and that’s what a secondary weapon is supposed to be, something you can fall back on if you run out of ammo in your primary weapon.

It seems to me that every last word of that wall was necessary. You’re right we can’t have EMP capable weapons in load outs, I didn’t say there should be.

The PPs EMP property is detrimental to game play but it’s place as an enemy weakening is vital to a healthy relationship between it as a secondary and the medium range primary rifles. Secondaries used to be back up weapons when we had identical starts, if load outs are going to work then they need to be more than that. The secondaries need to have a relationship between the primaries in the sense that together they form utility instead of a BR like in past games. AR-Magnum, CC-PP, LR-Bolt shot etc ideally these combos would compensate for each others weaknesses and work in unison.

If you were to look you’d see that I suggested that 343 bring back the CE version of the pistol. It would solve the problems you’ve mentioned such as the PP damaging vehicle game play and even fixing the issue of it being hard to get kills with.

And for the future I’d suggest that you take others words as seriously as you’d like yours to be taken. Sorry if that’s coming off kinda harsh but I put time into that post.

> The Plasma Rifle fits the bill nicely; or it would, if it got a little damage buff. Being a fully-automatic secondary weapon would set it apart from the Magnum and Boltshot.

It’s not an enemy weakener. The PR can’t replace and fill the purpose of the PP, it wont work. But I’ve already said this of course.

> Plasma Grenades are just as bad; they cannot be in loadouts. Even if you only started with 1, it wouldn’t be enough when it comes to vehicles; all the vehicles make for big targets, they’re too easily stuck, especially in the narrow confines of Halo 4’s vehicle maps. Even returning to the vehicle health system from Halo 3 would not be enough unless both the Plasma Pistol & Plasma Grenade are gone from loadouts.

Stuck too easily huh? Hmm I wonder if there’s anything in my first post regarding that?

And wouldn’t it be a good idea to fix the maps first then make changes to the weapon selection?

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I love the needle mine idea!

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Let’s have the plasma rifle revert to its ce form, and the needle mine be on the map as equipment.

People really seem to like the needle template, I saw someone come up with a needle pistol a while ago, and I myself advocate my needle grenade idea(rolls on surfaces rather than bounces).

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Sounds pretty much like a spike grenade but on a proximity detonator (awful idea for halo). If it worked on a 3 second timer before detonation, something we haven’t had before, then that could work but still not as something you start with. Starts should be limited to frags. And if we have to start with a secondary then it should just be a pistol. Depending on how loadouts work we could even have an AR or storm rifle secondary, or the plasma rifle should it make a reappearance. We’ll see.

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> Most people seem to agree that as far as Custom Loadouts go, the Plasma Pistol and Plasma Grenade have got to go; they ruin vehicle combat, and even buffing the vehicles back to their Halo 3 glory may not be enough if everyone is still allowed to start with Plasma Pistols & Grenades…

Halo 4’s vehicle play is broken by so many factors, solely blaming it on two items within loadouts is absurd.

Let’s start with the maps.
Overall vehicle-unfriendly designed. Too cramped, no proper “vehicle-areas” or “vehicle-routes” or generally a significant imbalance between infantry and vehicles, while infantry gets clearly favoured.
In addition, personally, I can’t think of any map in Halo 4 where I would say simply driving the hog is really fun. A shame.

Vehicles themselves.
They are heavily prone to everything and everywhere, meaning it doesn’t even matter with what you hit or where you hit the vehicle to damage it.
Plus, with the exception of the Banshee and Mantis, no vehicle has any sort of defensive abilities, what would actually be appropriate considering the amount of anti-vehicle weaponry within a game and how close you have to get with several vehicles.

Excess of anti-vehicle power weapons.
Created by the combination of POD, ROD and static spawns.

Loadouts.
I would consider H4’s loadout system overall flawed anyway but since it appears to be some sort of custom class system it would actually have needed to work with trade-offs in my opinion.
In regards to the PP and PG that could have meant, when you equip the PP you cannot equip PG and vice versa.

All that combined created H4’s broken vehicle gameplay. PP and PG in loadouts where only a part of the issue.
On the other hand, when all of those things would have been properly considered when designing the game, then vehicle play (and other parts as well) would likely have worked just fine, even with anti-vehicle weaponry at spawn.

Well, I think I just had to get that out.

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I don’t know about a Needle Mine, but I could support a Needle Grenade (similar to the Spike grenade, if not a direct variant of). I loved the Proximity Mine equipment in Halo 3. But the power and lethality of mines mean that they need to be balanced in such a away that everyone isn’t spamming them. So a “Needle Mine” I would say should be an on-map pick-up.
Now for the Covenant secondary… If the Plasma Rifle as a secondary is as powerful as the Storm Rifle, then why not just make it a primary weapon? The purpose of secondaries is to compliment the primary, or at least most of them, in some ways.
The best example is AR/Magnum - You have a close-to-mid range automatic with a longer ranged (usually) scoped sidearm.
The BR or DMR/Magnum combo gives you a compliment of a mid-to-long range precision weapon with a close-to-mid range precision secondary.
Bringing the UNSC SMG back as a secondary would create a new compliment with the BR and DMR, giving you a close-to-mid range automatic secondary. But in order for it not to qualify as a primary, it would need to deal less damage than an AR, but maybe up to a certain range where it would trump it such as extremely close range.
The Boltshot as a secondary I think is easily fixable. Instead of having a pocket shotgun as a secondary, make the charged alt-fire shoot a single, higher damaging bolt than the primary fire. I think that would be more true to it’s name.
The Plasma Rifle as a secondary would need to be similar to the UNSC SMG as a secondary. Less damaging than the Storm Rifle, or Plasma Repeater, or whatever the primary Covenant automatic is, but more lethal at a certain close range. Although the Storm Rifle is pretty SMG-y.
I don’t think rolling back the Plasma Pistol to it’s C.E. form is a good idea. Would be better to make a new weapon that performs similar and make the PP an on-map pick up.
I’d support a “Needle Pistol” secondary. Maybe a burst weapon? It would fit a niche the Covenant armory doesn’t have.

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> > I’ll tell you what I think.
> >
> > Get rid of loadouts and that way you don’t need to force any kind of new equipment in. Also hell no to proxy or manually detonated starting equipment.
>
> We don’t need to get rid of loadouts entirely. Same as armor abilities; it’s just a feature that needs to be fine-tuned.
>
> There’s only one feature they added in Halo 4 that really needs to be removed, and that’s Personal Ordnance; allowing players to call in power weapons whenever they like and removing weapons on map was taking it too far. But Loadouts can be fixed.
>
> Saying “just get rid of loadouts” is hardly what I’d call constructive. Unless you have any real suggestions to improve or balance loadouts, please go away.

How about you go away. Halo was perfectly fine (minus some networking problems) before they added sprint, no descope, loadouts and armor abilities. Everything should be a pickup besides the starting weapons that everyone spawns with. Put everyone on an even playing field and let the better player fight and win for the weapon he is going for. It doesn’t get any simpler than that. Spartans are UNSC soldiers. So naturally, imo, they should start with UNSC gear and pick the rest up off the field of play.

If you want to add new weapons, that’s perfectly fine as long as they aren’t something stupid or crazy OP. The needle pistol that people were talking about sounds cool. It could potentially replace the plasma pistol if people don’t like the noob combo or emp blast on vehicles. They could do a whole line of needle style weapons. Needle rifle from Reach, needle pistol, needle grenade, needle AR. Put in a freaking needle cannon and a needle turret! I don’t really care how many needles you pack into the game as long as it’s balanced with the rest of the sandbox and you don’t spawn with it. Pick it up off the map if you want it so bad, but loadouts don’t belong in Halo.

To give a great reason as to why, look at the population of the multiplayer since loadouts have been implemented. Halo Reach had mild success, but it’s numbers never surpassed Halo 3s population. Especially the lifetime of the game. Halo 3 was a dominant XBLive game through 4 years of it’s life. Reach had it’s moments and it’s things it did right, but it wasn’t as successful as H3. Halo 4 died after a few months. Now you are lucky to see 20k people online all day. The game is a flop. So when people say that Halo with Loadouts or other things that have shown up in the last few titles, I’m pretty sure they can tell you that it’s because things are showing up in Halo that shouldn’t be there. Like your precious loadouts. And to be constructive, if 343 goes back to the formula of the classic Halo gameplay, they will sell better and see more profit.

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> > > I’ll tell you what I think.
> > >
> > > Get rid of loadouts and that way you don’t need to force any kind of new equipment in. Also hell no to proxy or manually detonated starting equipment.
> >
> > We don’t need to get rid of loadouts entirely. Same as armor abilities; it’s just a feature that needs to be fine-tuned.
> >
> > There’s only one feature they added in Halo 4 that really needs to be removed, and that’s Personal Ordnance; allowing players to call in power weapons whenever they like and removing weapons on map was taking it too far. But Loadouts can be fixed.
> >
> > Saying “just get rid of loadouts” is hardly what I’d call constructive. Unless you have any real suggestions to improve or balance loadouts, please go away.
>
> How about you go away. Halo was perfectly fine (minus some networking problems) before they added sprint, no descope, loadouts and armor abilities. Everything should be a pickup besides the starting weapons that everyone spawns with.

No, you go away. Like it or not, armor abilities, loadouts, and sprint are here to stay; 343i can improve them, balance them to make the game more fair, but they won’t get rid of them entirely.

I’m posting my own ideas on how to improve loadouts, to fix some of the problems they introduced in Halo 4; you, on the other hand, are just complaining and offering nothing besides “change everything back to how it was in Halo 3”. Goodbye.