Keep the Gungoose out of H5.

Redoing this for reasons.

And it’s going to be a cliff notes version.

Keep the Gungoose out of H5.

Why?

.Breaks the theme of UNSC vehicle design
-UNSC vehicles are built around teamwork (Mongoose, Warthog, Falcon)
–Scorpion, Mantis, Hornet are outliers
—Design primarily for campaign
—Used sparingly or treated like PWs in MP

.Bad weapons platform
-Wheeled design
–Easy to flank
–High survivability means low time on target
–Increasing ToT decreases survivability
–Where you aim isn’t where you want to drive
–Leaves player exposed when doing strafes

.Bloat
.Infringes on Ghost territory

.Better solution
-Passenger mounted LMG.

UNSC vehicles don’t have to be centered on teamwork, just efficiency. This is a war going on, and 343i is trying to keep multiplayer canon as well.

> Redoing this for reasons.

First off, why did you edit your original thread to “…” and ask the moderators to lock it instead of typing this out in its place?

> Keep the Gungoose out of H5.
>
> Why?
>
> .Breaks the theme of UNSC vehicle design
> -UNSC vehicles are built around teamwork (Mongoose, Warthog, Falcon)
> --Scorpion, Mantis, Hornet are outliers
> —Design primarily for campaign
> —Used sparingly or treated like PWs in MP

  • The implied design of the UNSC vehicles is only true of about half of them, at least in the FPS games. Notice you mentioned three teamwork-oriented vehicles AND three independently-oriented vehicles? Not to mention that, at least as far as multiplayer is concerned, it doesn’t really matter what aesthetic these vehicles are given (unless its Invasion). There have been a few Covenant vehicles that benefited from having two operators (Spectre, Prowler, Revenant to an extent).

– I find it ironic that you labeled the solo-operated vehicles as “outliers” because of their greater impact on the game, yet you didn’t address the Falcon (a powerful team-driven vehicle) as such.

> .Bad weapons platform
> -Wheeled design
> --Easy to flank
> --High survivability means low time on target
> --Increasing ToT decreases survivability
> --Where you aim isn’t where you want to drive
> --Leaves player exposed when doing strafes

  • The Gungoose isn’t mean’t to perform a drastically different role from the Mongoose. Rather than the difference between the Mongoose and Ghost, it should be more likened to the difference between the various Warthog variants (same driving mechanics, different armaments).

– The Mongoose and Gungoose serve the same purpose. The distinction is that, if the need arises to defend yourself, you needn’t get out of the Gungoose to fire back.

> .Bloat
> .Infringes on Ghost territory
>
> .Better solution
> -Passenger mounted LMG.

  • Bloat? Having a differently equipped variant of a pre-existing vehicle automatically constitutes as bloating the sandbox? As already mentioned in the original thread on this matter, every Halo game since H2 has had AT LEAST TWO variants of Warthog (in multiplayer, more so in Campaign). By your principles/logic, the Gauss Hog and Rocket Hog bloats the sandbox and shouldn’t be/shouldn’t have been included.

– How does the Gungoose infringe on the Ghost’s “territory” any more than the Mongoose does? Being armed and controlled by the driver? The Ghost is still the best at what its meant to do; the Gungoose likely won’t be able to compete against, or “infringe”, the Ghost for the reasons that you listed as shortcomings of its design.

— I again find it ironic that your “better solution” would technically infringe on the Warthog’s territory. Also, how would this solution negate your “bloat” argument?

Also, I have a question posed on the original thread that I’d like answered, if you would. Here’s a quote from your initial post:

> Since 343 already showed it, players are going to expect it to be in playlists, and adding it on top of the Mongoose would create too much bloat so it’s going to replace the Mongoose, and they’ll use it, and they’ll get the Gungoose turned into a flaming desk sized paperweight within a minute of the match starting. Which means that you no longer have a Mongoose to push quickly to a position or to quickly pull an objective out.

And here’s my question (copy/pasted from original thread, sorry for repetition):
Aside from the already-addressed counters to the teamwork orientation of UNSC vehicles, I couldn’t help but feel this needs to be pointed out:

You say that two variants of the same vehicle (Mongoose and Gungoose) creates too much bloating in the sandbox and that only one will/should manage to be in the game. Every Halo game since Halo 2 has had AT LEAST two variants of Warthog (with Reach and 4 going as far as having 3, not counting the Transport Hog exclusive to Campaign). The Gauss Hog and Rocket Hog didn’t replace the original, so I don’t see how you can automatically assume that the Gungoose cannot coexist with its unarmed counterpart.

They may have slightly different applications, but you’re acting as though the Gungoose cannot do what the Mongoose can (as you said in the above quote). Can you elaborate on why the Gungoose cannot “push quickly to a position” or “quickly pull an objective out”?

> - The implied design of the UNSC vehicles is only true of about half of them, at least in the FPS games. Notice you mentioned three teamwork-oriented vehicles AND three independently-oriented vehicles? Not to mention that, at least as far as multiplayer is concerned, it doesn’t really matter what aesthetic these vehicles are given (unless its Invasion). There have been a few Covenant vehicles that benefited from having two operators (Spectre, Prowler, Revenant to an extent).

You’ll also note that the Scorpion and Mantis are not given equal weighting in playlists compared to the others. They appear in less maps and in some cases, have neutral spawning points to serve as vehicle based PWs.

Spectre and Prowler were Warthog reskins and were bad for the vehicle sandbox.

Revenant with it’s passenger seat was an odd duc and aside from players abusing the auto aim with the Sniper Rifle, the passenger was just there. He didn’t control the plasma cannon in the back. He barely contributed to the success of the vehicle.

> – I find it ironic that you labeled the solo-operated vehicles as “outliers” because of their greater impact on the game, yet you didn’t address the Falcon (a powerful team-driven vehicle) as such.

I labeled them as outliers because of their infrequency in the MP in relation to teamwork based vehicles and role in the Campaign to facilitate vehicle sections.

> The Mongoose and Gungoose serve the same purpose. The distinction is that, if the need arises to defend yourself, you needn’t get out of the Gungoose to fire back.

And with fixed forward mounted machine guns the only targets the Gungoose can shoot at are targets it is bearing down on. For defense, you are better off trying to outrun your aggressor. Or simply getting out of the vehicle and using it as cover.

> - Bloat? Having a differently equipped variant of a pre-existing vehicle automatically constitutes as bloating the sandbox? As already mentioned in the original thread on this matter, every Halo game since H2 has had AT LEAST TWO variants of Warthog (in multiplayer, more so in Campaign). By your principles/logic, the Gauss Hog and Rocket Hog bloats the sandbox and shouldn’t be/shouldn’t have been included.

Really they shouldn’t.

Both were all but omitted from the MP. Gauss Hog in Reach was excluded from all variants because it could shoot through Forge geometry and in general because it’s basically an even stronger version of the Scorpion.

> How does the Gungoose infringe on the Ghost’s “territory” any more than the Mongoose does? Being armed and controlled by the driver? The Ghost is still the best at what its meant to do; the Gungoose likely won’t be able to compete against, or “infringe”, the Ghost for the reasons that you listed as shortcomings of its design.

So if you agree on the shortcomings of it’s designs, why bring it to H5? Just because?

You know that in H2A people are going to try and use it like a Ghost, like a full on assault vehicle, and end up getting it slagged and removing a quick traversal option slash objective puller from the field because they wanted to go kill someone.

> I again find it ironic that your “better solution” would technically infringe on the Warthog’s territory. Also, how would this solution negate your “bloat” argument?

If the Gungoose has to be in the game, that is a better way of doing it. Ideally it just wouldn’t be in the game.

> They may have slightly different applications, but you’re acting as though the Gungoose cannot do what the Mongoose can (as you said in the above quote). Can you elaborate on why the Gungoose cannot “push quickly to a position” or “quickly pull an objective out”?

Literally? It can. Realistically? It won’t.

Because the most common scenario I can think of is that the vehicle will either be occupied by someone trying to use it like a Ghost or it will be slagged because someone was trying to use it like a Ghost.

I want the Gungoose in Halo 5. It finally makes it useful. As it stands the Mongoose isn’t any faster than the Warthog and is significantly more exposed. The Mongoose at the moment is only used as a last resort, nothing else. As for infringing on Ghost territory, the Beam Rifle/Sniper, Carbine/Battle Rifle, Spectre/Warthog, Wraith/Scorpion, etc. would like to have a word with you.

> I want the Gungoose in Halo 5. It finally makes it useful. As it stands the Mongoose isn’t any faster than the Warthog and is significantly more exposed.

And why isn’t making the Mongoose faster or accelerate faster not an option?

> The Mongoose at the moment is only used as a last resort, nothing else.

I’ve pushed and pulled objectives with it, as both rider and driver.

> As for infringing on Ghost territory, the Beam Rifle/Sniper, Carbine/Battle Rifle, Spectre/Warthog, Wraith/Scorpion, etc. would like to have a word with you.

Just because other parts of the game are flawed doesn’t mean we should go around and make more flaws.

Gungoose = UNSC version of Ghost. I see no problem in balancing out factions.

To be honest, who the heck cares? I don’t see how the gungoose could “break” gameplay in any way, shape, or form. I feel like this is such an non-issue.

> And why isn’t making the Mongoose faster or accelerate faster not an option?

It is, though you don’t want it to be too fast.

I don’t really see any problem with slapping some guns on the Mongoose though. It would ironically be like what the Banshee is to the Hornet, so in that respect it would be unique.

> .Breaks the theme of UNSC vehicle design

Vehicles should be made to be interesting, not based on an arbitrary set of laws.

I used to argue in favor of themes, but in hindsight I don’t really see the point of them. It just limits creativity.

Principle alone is not a good enough reason to keep the Gungoose out. There are always exceptions when in comes to ‘themes’ of certain factions.

With that in mind I obviously wouldn’t want a gungoose if it meant we did not get a brute chopper or a brand new vehicle, but if time permits I see no reason not to include it.

I’m all for reducing redundancy in the sandbox whenever possible, but let’s not go overboard if we don’t have to.

Gungeese sound like such a fun addition. they do everything mongeese do as well as shoot stuff up.

i imagine they’ll have less shields etc…

no reason why they shouldn’t be in. OP what i get from you is that people will jump on them run around shooting, get it blown up, and will reduce the teams number of vehicles…

to me that just sounds like people will be trying to have fun, sorry but IMO its just a non issue.

Honestly, people that love halo spend too much time trying to suck the fun out of the game. 343i really do have a thankless task

“Infringes”? I know the term sounds pretty and formal to you OP, but really? Guessing by your logic the Hornet “infringes” on the Banshee? Very cute if you think so lol.

Besides, fun, what’s wrong with having fun?

> > – I find it ironic that you labeled the solo-operated vehicles as “outliers” because of their greater impact on the game, yet you didn’t address the Falcon (a powerful team-driven vehicle) as such.
>
> I labeled them as outliers because of their infrequency in the MP in relation to teamwork based vehicles and role in the Campaign to facilitate vehicle sections.

Why doesn’t the Falcon fall into this group when judging by this criteria? Less common in MP and used to “facilitate vehicle sections” in Campaign (New Alexandria immediately comes to mind).

> And with fixed forward mounted machine guns the only targets the Gungoose can shoot at are targets it is bearing down on. For defense, you are better off trying to outrun your aggressor. Or simply getting out of the vehicle and using it as cover.

Forward-mounted guns didn’t seem to impede the Brute Chopper’s efficiency, nor did the lack of lateral movement. Acknowledging the fact that the Chopper and Gungoose have different properties, the fact remains that the Chopper’s cannons (with similar aiming/firing to the Gungoose) were far from useless.

Also, why are you bringing up defensive capabilities (or lack thereof) of an armed Mongoose? Its not meant to compete with the Ghost, as it serves the same purpose as the standard Mongoose. You seem to think that when it has guns, it suddenly must take on a different role (already taken by Ghost), when it really only means that while you’re closing distance between you and your destination you aren’t 100% vulnerable.

After all, the Warthog variants don’t really differ very much in terms of combat role, do they?

> So if you agree on the shortcomings of it’s designs, why bring it to H5? Just because?

By shortcomings, I meant it in the context you listed them, which I understood to be “shortcomings of a wheeled rapid assault vehicle when compared to the Covenant’s iteration”. The shortcomings are present if the Gungoose is to be considered the Ghost’s equivalent, when in reality it is simply a Mongoose with armament. Its function hasn’t changed from Mongoose to wheeled Ghost.

> You know that in H2A people are going to try and use it like a Ghost, like a full on assault vehicle, and end up getting it slagged and removing a quick traversal option slash objective puller from the field because they wanted to go kill someone.

So… you’re saying we shouldn’t have something because some people will misuse it? That is inevitable when dealing with players who don’t understand how things are to be used. Its like saying we shouldn’t include the Sniper Rifle because some people are going to waste it.

> > They may have slightly different applications, but you’re acting as though the Gungoose cannot do what the Mongoose can (as you said in the above quote). Can you elaborate on why the Gungoose cannot “push quickly to a position” or “quickly pull an objective out”?
>
> Literally? It can. Realistically? It won’t.

I don’t see how you can make such assumptions when you have yet to play the game with said addition. Also, the role of the Gungoose may become relative to the gametype.

By this, I mean that in standard modes it will likely fulfill the same role as the Mongoose, but when playing something like “Gungoose CTF” its role becomes something more (hybrid of Mongoose and Ghost), as it would probably be the only vehicle in the gametype.

> Because the most common scenario I can think of is that the vehicle will either be occupied by someone trying to use it like a Ghost or it will be slagged because someone was trying to use it like a Ghost.

If a player successfully utilizes a Gungoose as a Ghost, then the opposing team is losing to someone misusing resources. There’s no other way I can think to put that.
If a player is killed for trying and failing to utilize it as a Ghost, then that player has died because they misused resources.

Where is the problem in this?

It’s still a mongoose, just with a weird gun duct taped to the front.

Just drive it really fast towards something and if someone gets in the way try to shoot them up.

No offense but this whole argument seems too…nitpicky.
It’s like you think people have no idea what vehicles are supposed to do.

People don’t look at a Scorpion and think it’s a base rusher, people don’t look at a Warthog and think it’s a bullet sponge, and I know for a fact that people only ever use the Mongoose for either fast objective runs or drive-by strikes.

Adding a gun won’t ruin objective runs (unless it makes you drive slower, somehow?) and it certainly won’t ruin drive-by gunnings.

The few people who try to do a donut around a target just to shoot it will end up dying repeatedly, and if they don’t learn their lesson the first 5 times, they never will, and they end up being the people we use to farm kills with.

And we all live happily ever after!

Between ALOT of testing, better maps, and other factors, it’s possible to keep it.

oh OP, and people say this community isn’t afraid of change

But seriously, this is nitpicking, most people just use the mongoose to get from point a to point b, often by themselves, abandoning it when they get there. Adding guns to it will at least make the trip more interesting.

I don’t think the Gungoose will cause too many problems. To be honest, I always thought the Mongoose was slightly underpowered anyway. And by “underpowered,” I’m not talking about overall offensive capability, but about overall usefulness.

I’d rather the UNSC get a proper Ghost/Chopper peer, but I suppose the gungoose wouldn’t be terrible. I wont’ really know until I play with it, though.

I think the Mongoose is one of the most limited use vehicles around. Its primary uses are for racing to map ordnance or chauffeuring a flag carrier. So giving it weapons isn’t a terrible idea.

I think having the Gungoose in H2A is great but would not like to see it in future titles. The mongoose is perfection and if 343i wants to change it at all for future titles it would be nice if they had the community built up around this little guy work with them on it much like they have taken the competitive community into the fold for consultation on current projects.

> I don’t think the Gungoose will cause too many problems. To be honest, I always thought the Mongoose was slightly underpowered anyway. And by “underpowered,” I’m not talking about overall offensive capability, but about overall usefulness.

Same here.
I even doubt that the simple addition of guns will make it an any more viable option than before, at least not to any significant extent.
I think the Mongoose only really shines on maps with quite small, labyrinthine pathways where every other vehicle would have trouble to get through or simply would not fit through, otherwise the Warthog does everything (significantly) better or at least the same (i.e. speed).