Keep Halo 5 Skillful!

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

First of all I want to say that for the most part, the Halo 5 beta seemed to be a return to form after Halo 4 and its run and gun call of duty style gameplay.

The main things I liked about the Halo 5 Beta:

  • Hit registration was the best it’s ever been (Would it be possible to have an option to switch from Hit scan to projectile? A lot of players like the H1 and H3 shot registration when it’s not lagging) - The reduced auto-aim and increase player mobility allows for skilled precision weapon use which hasn’t been seen since H3 - Sniper De-scopes - Sprint is Balanced (I would still have preferred Halo without sprint but that’s the way all games are going so I can live with that) - Map design with callouts. (Will we be able to make our own in forge maps?)The main things I disliked/ Need to be implemented:
    Power weapon announcements - Has it come to the stage that we need to be spoonfed when a power weapon is about to spawn? In every other halo game, part of the skill was in timing the weapon and was a skill that only about 1-10% of the population could do depending on the game. This is a necessity to keep the game competitive, make sure people are planning ahead, and allows for a large skill gap to form making a ranking system actually relevant where a Level 50 is considerably better than a 45 and a 45 is considerably better than a 40 and so on. This was the case early on in Halo 3 (the last game with a functional respected ranking system) until people began selling accounts and cheating.
    Edit: 343 should list the times before the game starts instead of the announcement in game**. This keeps the skill element while alerting new players that weapons are on a timer.** http://i.imgur.com/3qR4VTc.jpg
    CREDIT TO D3ADLY SQUIRREL

Motion Sensor - The motion sensor should not by default tell you if your enemy is above, below or on the same level as you. The Motion sensor had balance in Halo 2 and Halo 3 by not telling you too much. On Halo 4 I can genuinely get kills by looking at my radar more than the actual screen. The new radar promotes camping and reduces the need for any awareness to the sounds and surroundings.

Theatre Mode - Theatre mode should be at least as good as it was on Halo 3 if not considerably better seeing as we are on an entirely new console. Every new theatre mode (reach, H4, MCC) has stripped features such as not letting control the film in the same way, share clips, or watch movies in a party. A great thing about Halo 3 was that you could go into theatre with your team and go over your games and strategise together. You could load up a movie to keep your party entertained while you went to put the dinner on.

File Share - This brings me to the file share. Halo MCC has NO FILE BROWSER. Bungie favourites for those of you who remember was a great way to find new gametypes, awesome screenshots and be connected to the community. It was the way many competitive maps which were used by MLG were found and also a great way for the developers to see bugs which were recorded by people who did not have capture cards.

Freedom - Halo 3 had such a well functioning online community, because of this the community made gametypes like griffball, many infection variations and so on which bungie took notice of and actually implemented them into real playlists. They had things like bungie day when the developers would actually be online to match and brought in clever achievements to make you push further like the vidmasters. Take notes 343i, Bungie is the company that made what you are doing possible and they most definitely knew what they were doing (at least until halo reach came out lol)

Webpage Support - Bungie managed to include heat maps, detailed stats, store every game you ever played, fileshares and so on, on their website. This was a great help to both improve peoples games, keep track of what others are doing and have a lasting record of your achievements. This web support really needs to return.

Thank you to everyone who has read this far and I will update the thread when I think of more. Let me know if you guys agree/disagree or think I’ve missed something.

2

I agree with most all that you’re saying. The only idea I disagree with is the power weapon callouts, I find it a great addition. I don’t think taking away the need to use a stop watch or watch the clock is any different from them putting a timer over the weapon. Just takes away some of the things that you don’t need to do, there’ll be a fight for the weapon now even at lower ranked matches, which is good

3

> 2631791032248637;2:
> I agree with most all that you’re saying. The only idea I disagree with is the power weapon callouts, I find it a great addition. I don’t think taking away the need to use a stop watch or watch the clock is any different from them putting a timer over the weapon. Just takes away some of the things that you don’t need to do, there’ll be a fight for the weapon now even at lower ranked matches, which is good

That’s the thing. If the skillful parts of the game are taking place at lower and lower levels it means the skill gap is decreasing. Timing power weapons and communication has always been one of the key elements that separated pro players from everyone else. If you watch MLG game play they’re always there on time, communicating when they have dirtied the power weapon and so on to give their team an advantage.

What I’m trying to say is that it’s a good thing that low leveled players don’t know when the weapon is coming up. It gives them something to learn, and the ones that do that will improve.

Thanks for your comment.

4

> 2533274822519620;3:
> > 2631791032248637;2:
> > I agree with most all that you’re saying. The only idea I disagree with is the power weapon callouts, I find it a great addition. I don’t think taking away the need to use a stop watch or watch the clock is any different from them putting a timer over the weapon. Just takes away some of the things that you don’t need to do, there’ll be a fight for the weapon now even at lower ranked matches, which is good
>
>
> That’s the thing. If the skillful parts of the game are taking place at lower and lower levels it means the skill gap is decreasing. Timing power weapons and communication has always been one of the key elements that separated pro players from everyone else. If you watch MLG game play they’re always there on time, communicating when they have dirtied the power weapon and so on to give their team an advantage.
>
> What I’m trying to say is that it’s a good thing that low leveled players don’t know when the weapon is coming up. It gives them something to learn, and the ones that do that will improve.
>
> Thanks for your comment.

The problem with the logic behind “It lets the low leveled players figure it out” is that we are not in the same market we were 10 years ago. The average gamer wont wait around to figure out when exactly the rocket launcher will spawn. Its a small change that hardly hurts the pros but will help the newbies and maybe keep them in the game longer.
Say what you will. Its about making money in the end.

5

> 2533274822519620;3:
> > 2631791032248637;2:
> > I agree with most all that you’re saying. The only idea I disagree with is the power weapon callouts, I find it a great addition. I don’t think taking away the need to use a stop watch or watch the clock is any different from them putting a timer over the weapon. Just takes away some of the things that you don’t need to do, there’ll be a fight for the weapon now even at lower ranked matches, which is good
>
>
> That’s the thing. If the skillful parts of the game are taking place at lower and lower levels it means the skill gap is decreasing. Timing power weapons and communication has always been one of the key elements that separated pro players from everyone else. If you watch MLG game play they’re always there on time, communicating when they have dirtied the power weapon and so on to give their team an advantage.
> What I’m trying to say is that it’s a good thing that low leveled players don’t know when the weapon is coming up. It gives them something to learn, and the ones that do that will improve.
> Thanks for your comment.

Teams can still communicate, the better player will be able to plan how they’re going to grab the power weapons and what to do if they don’t get it with their “superior” knowledge of the map. Yes, they won’t have as big an advantage as they did in previous games but I don’t see this as a bad thing and I don’t see it as a sign of the game requiring less skill (I’m not convinced memorizing placements and timings is a skill in this context); the cream will always rise to the top eventually

6

Sniper De-scopes. This is one thing I would really like to return.

7

> 2533275030819984;6:
> Sniper De-scopes. This is one thing I would really like to return.

It already does :).

8

I disagree with your proposal about the motion tracker. I hated that it didn’t tell you if enemies were above or below you in Halo 3, and it was especially bad on Construct. “There’s an enemy behind you! Or is there? We don’t know! Guess!”

9

> 2533274822519620;1:
> The main things I disliked/ Need to be implemented:
> Power weapon announcements - Has it come to the stage that we need to be spoonfed when a power weapon is about to spawn? In every other halo game, part of the skill was in timing the weapon and was a skill that only about 1-10% of the population could do depending on the game. This is a necessity to keep the game competitive, make sure people are planning ahead, and allows for a large skill gap to form making a ranking system actually relevant where a Level 50 is considerably better than a 45 and a 45 is considerably better than a 40 and so on. This was the case early on in Halo 3 (the last game with a functional respected ranking system) until people began selling accounts and cheating.
>
> Motion Sensor - The motion sensor should not by default tell you if your enemy is above, below or on the same level as you. The Motion sensor had balance in Halo 2 and Halo 3 by not telling you too much. On Halo 4 I can genuinely get kills by looking at my radar more than the actual screen. The new radar promotes camping and reduces the need for any awareness to the sounds and surroundings.
>
> Freedom - Halo 3 had such a well functioning online community, because of this the community made gametypes like griffball, many infection variations and so on which bungie took notice of and actually implemented them into real playlists. They had things like bungie day when the developers would actually be online to match and brought in clever achievements to make you push further like the vidmasters. Take notes 343i, Bungie is the company that made what you are doing possible and they most definitely knew what they were doing (at least until halo reach came out lol)

I like the power weapon announcements. Even though I kinda have a feel for when the weapons are going to respawn, it helps to have a reminder and it helps to get my friends to get into gear and get over to where the weapons are supposed to be.

I also like the Motion Sensor. Having an indicator show me if they’re above or below me, helps me in situations so I’m not too stressed of an incoming attack. Knowing if they’re below me helps me keep my cool and anticipate an attack.

Lastly. Bungie WAS the company that made what 343i is doing possible. They are no longer that company.

10

> 2576836393959214;4:
> > 2533274822519620;3:
> > > 2631791032248637;2:
> > > I agree with most all that you’re saying. The only idea I disagree with is the power weapon callouts, I find it a great addition. I don’t think taking away the need to use a stop watch or watch the clock is any different from them putting a timer over the weapon. Just takes away some of the things that you don’t need to do, there’ll be a fight for the weapon now even at lower ranked matches, which is good
> >
> >
> > That’s the thing. If the skillful parts of the game are taking place at lower and lower levels it means the skill gap is decreasing. Timing power weapons and communication has always been one of the key elements that separated pro players from everyone else. If you watch MLG game play they’re always there on time, communicating when they have dirtied the power weapon and so on to give their team an advantage.
> >
> > What I’m trying to say is that it’s a good thing that low leveled players don’t know when the weapon is coming up. It gives them something to learn, and the ones that do that will improve.
> >
> > Thanks for your comment.
>
>
> The problem with the logic behind “It lets the low leveled players figure it out” is that we are not in the same market we were 10 years ago. The average gamer wont wait around to figure out when exactly the rocket launcher will spawn. Its a small change that hardly hurts the pros but will help the newbies and maybe keep them in the game longer.
> Say what you will. Its about making money in the end.

It could be an on/off option. In “noob” playlist such as social slayer and rumble pit, fine, I can deal with everyone knowing the timings of the weapons. In more skillful playlists, MLG, Team Objective, maybe switch the notifications off and just have a summary of the timings in the game start screen. See attached picture.

11

> 2533274803006350;10:
> > 2576836393959214;4:
> > > 2533274822519620;3:
> > > > 2631791032248637;2:
> > > > I agree with most all that you’re saying. The only idea I disagree with is the power weapon callouts, I find it a great addition. I don’t think taking away the need to use a stop watch or watch the clock is any different from them putting a timer over the weapon. Just takes away some of the things that you don’t need to do, there’ll be a fight for the weapon now even at lower ranked matches, which is good
> > >
> > >
> > > That’s the thing. If the skillful parts of the game are taking place at lower and lower levels it means the skill gap is decreasing. Timing power weapons and communication has always been one of the key elements that separated pro players from everyone else. If you watch MLG game play they’re always there on time, communicating when they have dirtied the power weapon and so on to give their team an advantage.
> > >
> > > What I’m trying to say is that it’s a good thing that low leveled players don’t know when the weapon is coming up. It gives them something to learn, and the ones that do that will improve.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your comment.
> >
> >
> > The problem with the logic behind “It lets the low leveled players figure it out” is that we are not in the same market we were 10 years ago. The average gamer wont wait around to figure out when exactly the rocket launcher will spawn. Its a small change that hardly hurts the pros but will help the newbies and maybe keep them in the game longer.
> > Say what you will. Its about making money in the end.
>
>
> It could be an on/off option. In “noob” playlist such as social slayer and rumble pit, fine, I can deal with everyone knowing the timings of the weapons. In more skillful playlists, MLG, Team Objective, maybe switch the notifications off and just have a summary of the timings in the game start screen. See attached picture.
>
> http://i.imgur.com/3qR4VTc.jpg

That’s a good idea. It keeps the skill but doesn’t make it a secret anymore.
Edited OP.

12

I really don’t want to get into a whole big deal over hitscan vs. projectile, but projectile bullets didn’t require the Halo 3 player to be more “skillful,” it required him to be willing to put up with randomness. I guess you could call that a skill… if you want to.

Power weapon announcements are fine. There was no skill in timing weapon drops in Halo 3 - it just meant that you knew how to tell time. People didn’t do it because they couldn’t be bothered, not because it took “skill.”

Motion tracker is fine just as it is. Stop using the word “balanced” to describe things the way you would prefer them to be, and hence implying that any other way is “unbalanced.”

Look, if people want a wider skill gap then that’s fine. But a game like Halo 4, with the narrowest skill gap of any Halo, still has a gap which is more than wide enough to create a very rigid and well defined caste system amongst its player base. The kind of skill gap widening that you’re talking about with aim assist probably effects the top 10% of players - maybe. And if they need it, then fine. But most of the rest of gameplay-specific things on your list just don’t have anything to do with skill. As for the non-gameplay items on your list - file share, theater mode, better Waypoint features, better forge - I’m all for it. But I’m kinda getting the feeling that 343 thinks Halo = gameplay, and not Halo = the community. Which is a little sad.

13

agree for the most part. I would never say that this version of sprint is even close to balanced though.

14

> 2533274813499353;13:
> agree for the most part. I would never say that this version of sprint is even close to balanced though.

Depends, how would you define balance?

15

> 2533274978553590;8:
> I disagree with your proposal about the motion tracker. I hated that it didn’t tell you if enemies were above or below you in Halo 3, and it was especially bad on Construct. “There’s an enemy behind you! Or is there? We don’t know! Guess!”

Dear lord -_- I agree.

16

I think halo 5’s skill ago was definitely present in the beta and I think it’s even more apparent now halo 5 is looking to be very competitive.

17

  1. what skill is depends on what an individual defines as skill. There has been several threads over halo’s life time defining skill.

  2. there was no skill involved in keeping weapon timers memorized. The game should focus on skills in game. Everyone should be aware of where these things spawn in and be told when by default. It’s not like a noob knowing this by default gives him any better of a chance at getting it over someone of your skill level.

  3. Motion tracker point is moot. It’s disabled for competitive play.

18

> 2533274873843883;12:
> I really don’t want to get into a whole big deal over hitscan vs. projectile, but projectile bullets didn’t require the Halo 3 player to be more “skillful,” it required him to be willing to put up with randomness. I guess you could call that a skill… if you want to.

As I said I would like the option to switch it on, I do not want it as the base gameplay in matchmaking. Projectile shots are not random, many games have used projectile and as long as the connection is good (e.g. dedicated servers) and the game is coded well projectiles function fine. Play H1 playlist and the projectile works well on a good host because it has a good netcode. Projectile can lead to a greater skill gap as players have to predict the movement better of their opponent as well as judging how much to lead over distances. Why do you think real life snipers are considered so skilled?

Because real life isn’t hitscan

> Power weapon announcements are fine. There was no skill in timing weapon drops in Halo 3 - it just meant that you knew how to tell time. People didn’t do it because they couldn’t be bothered, not because it took “skill.”

If you think so, but I am not talking about the MM timing. MLG settings are settings which aim to increase the skillgap of the base game and a key skill of these MLG pros was that they would always remember when a weapon/power-up was coming up and the correct time to begin setting up for it. Knowledge of the game and all of it’s components is part of the skill, it’s not all about the best BR or sniper.

> Motion tracker is fine just as it is. Stop using the word “balanced” to describe things the way you would prefer them to be, and hence implying that any other way is “unbalanced.”

Fair enough, the motion sensor to me tells players too much, I might aswell have promethean vision. Even at it’s base level it tells a lot which is why MLG/competitive settings don’t include it. It makes the game much slower paced as it promotes camping/crouching/radar watching. MLG/competitive settings aim to have a quick paced skillful game. I am not implying any other way is unbalanced, I am openly stating the current was is less balanced than its predecessor based on how it affects the flow of the game.

> Look, if people want a wider skill gap then that’s fine. But a game like Halo 4, with the narrowest skill gap of any Halo, still has a gap which is more than wide enough to create a very rigid and well defined caste system amongst its player base. The kind of skill gap widening that you’re talking about with aim assist probably effects the top 10% of players - maybe. And if they need it, then fine. But most of the rest of gameplay-specific things on your list just don’t have anything to do with skill. As for the non-gameplay items on your list - file share, theater mode, better Waypoint features, better forge - I’m all for it. But I’m kinda getting the feeling that 343 thinks Halo = gameplay, and not Halo = the community. Which is a little sad.

Any game has a skill gap, you’re just stating the obvious. Halo 4 had the narrowest skill gap and therefore managed to lose halo the majority of it’s player base.Just look at games like LoL, starcraft, Smite etc. These games all have next to no advertising yet manage to pull in a lot more players than halo does now as they have a large skill gap so a win on the game is actually something the player can be proud of. Caring about the top 10% of players is definitely something important to do as those are more often than not the players that put the most time into the game and keep it well populated. They are also the players who make youtube videos, have twitch streams and are active on other Halo forums which keeps the game alive.

Hopefully 343 will recognise that community is very important to the life of the game. It’s what invented 100s of different gametypes which are still made today and definitely one of the reasons that H2, H3 and Halo reach were so active online.

19

> 2533274822519620;1:
> Freedom - Halo 3 had such a well functioning online community, because of this the community made gametypes like griffball, many infection variations and so on which bungie took notice of and actually implemented them into real playlists. They had things like bungie day when the developers would actually be online to match and brought in clever achievements to make you push further like the vidmasters. Take notes 343i, Bungie is the company that made what you are doing possible and they most definitely knew what they were doing (at least until halo reach came out lol)

343 did kind of do the same thing in Halo 4.
Remember mini slayer and all that?
Those were actually modded game types made by the community, and they actually added them into playlists, which to me, was very cool.
I hope they do something similar in Halo 5, but expanded, just like Halo 3.

20

> 2535422112705145;17:
> 1) what skill is depends on what an individual defines as skill. There has been several threads over halo’s life time defining skill.

I guess that’s kind of true for any word. But then again, I think it’s intuitively clear to anyone that if you put two players play a hundred games against each other, and at the end, the other has won 70 of the games, then that player is more skillful. I don’t think anyone could disagree with that in any sensible way. So, let’s not worry about the specifics and just take this abstract idea: skill is the probability of beating another player. Then, if we’re worried about somebody twisting that definition into some ridiculous scenario with the players being completely unbalanced to prove it wrong, we can add some conditions about reasonable balance, or if we want to be absolutely safe, symmetric starting conditions.The latter is of course a bit restrictive, but for symmetric games, there’s no need to worry.

So, now we have this framework of win probabilities, we can start asking what affects the probability of beating another player. This gets us into the territory of choices, and sooner than we realize, we run into the problem of balance, and realize that it’s really all about the relations of choices players have. When it comes to skill, however, we quickly realize that in a game with very few choices, the players are going to be drawing all the time, which means the win probability will constantly hover at 50/50, and we conclude there’s no skill. If we increase the number of choices, we may or may not get different results. We realize that not all choices are equal; some choices are meaningless and don’t affect the outcome of the game, and others are meaningful and affect the outcome. Then we know that skill has something to do with the amount of meaningful choices given to players.

I don’t know how far you would agree with me on that line of thought, but provided you find it all pretty reasonable, we’re well into the essence of skill to the point that we could actually discuss how different mechanics affect it. Of course, you may not find this definition any more special than the others, in which case, just add it to the pile. But this would be my suggestion which really appeals to me because the probabilistic definition just seems deeply intuitive and objective to me.