This will more than likely be a pretty big read, so stay with me.
K/D has been such a hot subject when it comes to competitive players in Halo or any other shooter for that matter. K/D means something in a way, when it comes to your play in a standard slayer match, but not so much in objective gameplay. Yet for some reason, the objective K/D carries over to overall K/D and IMO ruin’s all potential for legitimate kill to death stats. I’m not saying that K/D in objective is or isn’t indicative of skill. It would be nearly true if everyone played a near identical playstyle but that’s simply not the case. Objective let’s you decide if you want to play defensive or offensive. Slayer gives you one option, get kills and avoid dying.
Since K/D still counts in objective too many people avoid going for the objective and play a more camp/defend playstyle. Their is absolutely nothing wrong with a defensive playstyle but their isn’t enough motivation to play offence. Some of my more intense moments in gaming involve capping a flag. Too many people stray away from playing the objective because they are too worried about destroying their K/D.
What I’m going to suggest is the removal of kill and death stats from objective games entirely. I’m not just talking post match stats. I’m talking in general your kills and deaths will not count as an overall stat for your account in general. You will personally be able to see what you did K/D wise after matches, but it will be non-existent to everyone else.
New stats will take over this area that make much more sense. Cap to game ratio for ctf, ball time per game average, hill time per game average, etc… What better way to make people want to play objectives than giving them stats for it and removing the all mighty K/D stat from objective games completely? It also eliminates most farmers/griefers in grifball and other objective gametypes. It also eliminates people harassing others for having bad K/D in objective gametypes in the post game lobby. People aren’t put off by the idea of actually going for the objective. Even great players can manage to go negative if they are constantly making pushed for the hill only to get picked off by distant shots and nades.
I know having these stat changes won’t entirely fix the “not going for objectives” problem, but it would sure help. I know that when the enemy team is landing good shots I’ll be more keen to actually try and push rather than sit back and defend to avoid dying several times. It would also be nice knowing that their is a chance a teammate will help me make a push too.
So what do you guys and gals think? Should 343 eliminate K/D from objective gametypes entirely? Do you think it would help to push players to play the objectives more frequently? Do you have a different idea on how to solve the offensive objective player problems?
I think the problem is more that K/D is shown on the player card. Whatever is shown in-game is what players will attempt to increase for bragging rights. I think a more appropriate “fix” would be to remove K/D from in-game player cards and replace it with win/loss. Halo 3 had this–you could see total games played and total games won (EXP), which gave you a win percentage (even if slightly inaccurate due to double-EXP and zero-EXP games). I have many memories of Halo 3 and none of them have to do with K/D stat padding.
Totally agree. The default K/D ratio shown in-game and on the website should include Slayer and slayer-based gametypes like Regicide only. K/D for objective gametypes should only be available in detailed breakdowns (i.e. the “game variants” heading in Halo 4’s service record), if at all.
However, I think the real issue is that K/D and even W/L ultimately aren’t very meaningful in a game with ranks and functional skill-matching. High K/D or W/L ratios basically mean one of three things: (1) your rank hasn’t caught up with your “actual” skill yet, (2) skill-matching is unreliable and you get lots of lopsided matches against lower ranked players, (3) you’re really good, i.e. you’ve hit max rank but are still better than the majority of max rank players.
Keeping that in mind, I think Halo 3 has actually gotten this one right: the in-game service record shows your highest rank and number of games played, but neither K/D nor W/L.
> The problem is the match-ups. People will keep killing people in CTF, if they can (and want to), whether it is for medals, clips or better stats.
>
> They will not, if there is a possibility that they might lose.
This. I and the majority of my friends list enjoys pub stomping in Ricochet and CTF. I couldn’t care less about my KD in playlists like Ricochet, I just want to have fun and for me, pub stomping is fun. I also have friends and know of others who just go for clips.
So even if objective Kill Death ratios were removed, hundreds of people, myself included, will still be the same old kill whores we are today. Stat Padders are different because obviously they only want to pad stats. They will hide and run as soon as they take a shot. Assuming KD for these playlists are removed, they will likely go stat pad in Slayer (which is even worse) or become pub stompers which is a similar problem.
The reason I am a pub stomper is because I have no incentive to play competitive. That goes for many of my friends also. Should they give that incentive, the problem will decrease.
I don’t think Pub stomping is that big of an issue. I think it’s an issue because of K/D stat padding. Players will always join up with their friends but they will always try to spawn kill and stomp pubs mainly to get a few more kills or that extra bit of points so it shows up on their service record.
Remove visible and in-game K/D and you solve that issue for the most part. Players need to focus on winning because it makes the game and the play environment much better for everyone. Even if players hold the last flag and keep from capturing it, to kill opponents, what will they gain if they don’t get a higher k/d or more EXP points?
You’ll see players quickly abandon lengthening the game.
Invisible or non-permanent K/D would encourage players to try more risky behaviors that result in them becoming better at the game, instead of sticking to easy and safe strategies so they don’t worry about their K/D going down.
I still maintain my stance that stat tracking is among the worst things to happen to gaming.
> > The problem is the match-ups. People will keep killing people in CTF, if they can (and want to), whether it is for medals, clips or better stats.
> >
> > They will not, if there is a possibility that they might lose.
>
> This. I and the majority of my friends list enjoys pub stomping in Ricochet and CTF. I couldn’t care less about my KD in playlists like Ricochet, I just want to have fun and for me, pub stomping is fun. I also have friends and know of others who just go for clips.
>
> So even if objective Kill Death ratios were removed, hundreds of people, myself included, will still be the same old kill whores we are today. Stat Padders are different because obviously they only want to pad stats. They will hide and run as soon as they take a shot. Assuming KD for these playlists are removed, they will likely go stat pad in Slayer (which is even worse) or become pub stompers which is a similar problem.
>
> The reason I am a pub stomper is because I have no incentive to play competitive. That goes for many of my friends also. Should they give that incentive, the problem will decrease.
I feel so glad for those players that you get paired up against. They must have a blast being repeatedly killed while trying to actually win the game. I’m sorry, but your playstyle disgusts me. Reguardless of how much it would help the problem it would at least help some. I know people will still play like jerks regardless. If it helps at all that would be a good start. Either way, K/D stats aren’t needed in things like CTF so even if K/D didn’t effect players playstyles in CTF it’s a pointless stat. It’s like “ummm… let’s see how many times I successfully didn’t go for the main objective so I could rack up things that collectively aren’t improving my teams score.”
I can understand someone playing that role, it’s just bs when everyone is playing that role and little incentive is given to push for the objectives.
I’m a firm believer that K/D is a very distant secondary consideration in Objective games.
The Hill clock isn’t going to tick unless someone doesn’t care about K/D.
That Flag timer isn’t going to reset unless someone brazenly touches the flag with no regard to life or death.
I won’t miss it if it disappears from Objective postgames. I kinda endorse its removal, too.
Look, I’ll happily go -30 K/D if it means I win an Objective game. But I’d really appreciate it more if I played with others of the same mindset. I’m afraid there just aren’t many of them out there. Not for this version of Halo, anyway.
> I’m a firm believer that K/D is a very distant secondary consideration in Objective games.
>
> The Hill clock isn’t going to tick unless someone doesn’t care about K/D.
>
> That Flag timer isn’t going to reset unless someone brazenly touches the flag with no regard to life or death.
>
> I won’t miss it if it disappears from Objective postgames. I kinda endorse its removal, too.
>
> Look, I’ll happily go -30 K/D if it means I win an Objective game. But I’d really appreciate it more if I played with others of the same mindset. I’m afraid there just aren’t many of them out there. Not for this version of Halo, anyway.
Halo 2 was the last time I truly remember people caring about the objectives. I remember playing games of 1 flag CTF on Relic and dying 25+ times just to try and make a push. Once the flag was removed from the Relic tower it was game on. Constant pushes by the attacking team with the defenders still keeping a stronghold on the flag. Sure, it sucked dying 25+ times but getting that flag out of the base and back to yours felt like such an accomplishment. This was well before most players knew about the stats page on Bungie.
On a side note, running the Warthog up the backside of the Relic and successfully grabbing and capping the flag is one of my fondest moments in objective game history.
> I’m a firm believer that K/D is a very distant secondary consideration in Objective games.
>
> The Hill clock isn’t going to tick unless someone doesn’t care about K/D.
>
> That Flag timer isn’t going to reset unless someone brazenly touches the flag with no regard to life or death.
>
> I won’t miss it if it disappears from Objective postgames. I kinda endorse its removal, too.
>
> Look, I’ll happily go -30 K/D if it means I win an Objective game. But I’d really appreciate it more if I played with others of the same mindset. I’m afraid there just aren’t many of them out there. Not for this version of Halo, anyway.
I’m Commander Carter, and this is my favorite post on Waypoint.
(Am I doing that right?)
Anyway. Basically, this. The removal won’t stop pub stomping like someone else mentioned, but I do feel like it would encourage more people to go right for the objective.
> > I’m a firm believer that K/D is a very distant secondary consideration in Objective games.
> >
> > The Hill clock isn’t going to tick unless someone doesn’t care about K/D.
> >
> > That Flag timer isn’t going to reset unless someone brazenly touches the flag with no regard to life or death.
> >
> > I won’t miss it if it disappears from Objective postgames. I kinda endorse its removal, too.
> >
> > Look, I’ll happily go -30 K/D if it means I win an Objective game. But I’d really appreciate it more if I played with others of the same mindset. I’m afraid there just aren’t many of them out there. Not for this version of Halo, anyway.
>
> I’m Commander Carter, and this is my favorite post on Waypoint.
>
> (Am I doing that right?)
>
> Anyway. Basically, this. The removal won’t stop pub stomping like someone else mentioned, but I do feel like it would encourage more people to go right for the objective.
What if there was a separate tracker on your Service Tag for like “ Flags Captured / Returned” and “[____] Seconds spent in Hill”? Additional lines showing how you’ve been pushing for the objectives and have been working at it?
> What if there was a separate tracker on your Service Tag for like “ Flags Captured / Returned” and “[____] Seconds spent in Hill”? Additional lines showing how you’ve been pushing for the objectives and have been working at it?
I want to iterate that if there is a five man team in stuff like CTF there is no point in everyone rushing the objective 3 rush 2 hold I like to hold as I am an unlucky one with the flag.
Syl’s Idea has promise to it I know a few friends of mine who would love that because they are not the greatest when it comes to slaying ( thats my job) in any gametype BUT they are some mean flag runners/hill kings and…erm…base masters ?
Everybody running after that oddball like a dog, betray right in front of the base to get that flag capture and just throwing your body at the flag 10 times to get it 2 more meters further is definitly not the way to go.
There are always jerks in MM. If your teammates are just stat padding then just team up. Its not that hard.
Some people just dont understand how important the slayer guys in CTF etc. are.
I didnt had a flag cap this game, the guest had it. Was he more important for that game than I was? Did we won because of him? Even if I ALSO had to throw it out of the base and touch it twice?
The only problem is that you dont really get rewarded for winning the game. You only get a little bit more XP than the other team and if you are already CSR130… well… most people here now that feel.
Ranked playlists and teamming up are the solutions.
Well considering 343 Industries have added alot more team orientated medals in Halo 4… it is a good suggestion that me might see something like this implemented… Great Thread OP.
> What if there was a separate tracker on your Service Tag for like “ Flags Captured / Returned” and “[____] Seconds spent in Hill”? Additional lines showing how you’ve been pushing for the objectives and have been working at it?
Like the people before me said, this would probably lead to objective-hogging.
Not only that, but there’s no ratio. Staying in the hill for 2 seconds in 500 KotH games would net me the same number as staying in the hill for 250 seconds in 4 KotH games. Which would probably lead to more objective-hogging.
> Some people just dont understand how important the slayer guys in CTF etc. are.
I fully understand that without a proper slayer/pinger your team is probably not getting the flag. With that said killing is obviously not the goal. Some are going to do it and others are going to play more for the cap. Instead of K/D for players that play with your playstyle it should be more along the lines of grab assists and cap assists. If you kill someone with a certain distance from the flag carrier you would get carrier assists. Their would be medals for the flag support. Also, remove the ability for your team to betray the flag carrier. I know it ruins some of the gameplay but more often than not a carrier is betrayed for the soul purpose of someone else stealing the cap. Maybe make him invulnerable to FF within a handful of meters of the cap point.
> > What if there was a separate tracker on your Service Tag for like “ Flags Captured / Returned” and “[____] Seconds spent in Hill”? Additional lines showing how you’ve been pushing for the objectives and have been working at it?
>
> Like the people before me said, this would probably lead to objective-hogging.
>
> Not only that, but there’s no ratio. Staying in the hill for 2 seconds in 500 KotH games would net me the same number as staying in the hill for 250 seconds in 4 KotH games. Which would probably lead to more objective-hogging.
The only other thing I could think of is K/D not being recorded in Objective-Gametypes, like how you can’t get Perfections in Halo 4 in CTF and assorted - only in Slayer.
If Friendly Fire is disabled in the gametype, there wouldn’t be any betraying to be the lucky spartan/elite to return the objective. It’d hopefully encourage people to get to the flag, to keep holding the hill, instead of stalling the game to raise their K/D.
Or maybe there’d be a separate page for your “efficiency” in specific game modes. K/D for Slayer, successful extractions made in Extraction (Along with Dominion, I hope these return in H5!), Flags Captured / Flag Assists / Returns…
It’s a possibility, and does need work, but it’s a thought.
> > > The problem is the match-ups. People will keep killing people in CTF, if they can (and want to), whether it is for medals, clips or better stats.
> > >
> > > They will not, if there is a possibility that they might lose.
> >
> > This. I and the majority of my friends list enjoys pub stomping in Ricochet and CTF. I couldn’t care less about my KD in playlists like Ricochet, I just want to have fun and for me, pub stomping is fun. I also have friends and know of others who just go for clips.
> >
> > So even if objective Kill Death ratios were removed, hundreds of people, myself included, will still be the same old kill whores we are today. Stat Padders are different because obviously they only want to pad stats. They will hide and run as soon as they take a shot. Assuming KD for these playlists are removed, they will likely go stat pad in Slayer (which is even worse) or become pub stompers which is a similar problem.
> >
> > The reason I am a pub stomper is because I have no incentive to play competitive. That goes for many of my friends also. Should they give that incentive, the problem will decrease.
>
> I feel so glad for those players that you get paired up against. They must have a blast being repeatedly killed while trying to actually win the game. I’m sorry, but your playstyle disgusts me. Reguardless of how much it would help the problem it would at least help some. I know people will still play like jerks regardless. If it helps at all that would be a good start. Either way, K/D stats aren’t needed in things like CTF so even if K/D didn’t effect players playstyles in CTF it’s a pointless stat. It’s like “ummm… let’s see how many times I successfully didn’t go for the main objective so I could rack up things that collectively aren’t improving my teams score.”
>
> I can understand someone playing that role, it’s just bs when everyone is playing that role and little incentive is given to push for the objectives.
I still go for the win. I’ll still play the objective and I find myself playing it more than ever at the moment with the bad teammates but my main role is slaying. I’m a pretty decent player and I help make those pushes to win the game. I enjoy playing lesser skilled players but I don’t enjoy losing. The reason I call myself a pub stomper is because I enjoy playing against lesser skilled players. So as far as contributing to the team goes I’m far from selfish. Someone needs to play the slayer role and that is usually the role of a pub stomper. I’m not trying to defend pub stomping because I have played against some that couldn’t care less about the objective nor are they much fun to play against but you make us out to be the bane of Halo 4.
Your argument concerning a “kd for objective is pointless” is a decent point however some teams do play competitively and do care about their KD. Also why not have a KD for CTF if we have Slayer. I can still go into Slayer and get an unfair KD.
TBH if a player has a KD over 2.5, I just assume part of that has been unfairly obtained and is not a fair representation of skill therefore ignore it. Take my KD. My overall KD is 1.9 almost which I would argue is a fair representation of skill. I’ve improved since I started playing Halo 4 and can now beat most players with ease in TS. However my KD in Ricochet is 3.3 almost which clearly has been gained through pub stomping therefore shouldn’t be taken seriously.
I couldn’t care less if objective KDs went, I’m just going to stand by my previous point that playstyles will not change nor will it accomplish anything. It may even upset those who actually play competitively and actually care about their stats. As long as objective games contribute to the overall KD, stat padding will be a problem.
> I still go for the win. I’ll still play the objective and I find myself playing it more than ever at the moment with the bad teammates but my main role is slaying. I’m a pretty decent player and I help make those pushes to win the game. I enjoy playing lesser skilled players but I don’t enjoy losing. The reason I call myself a pub stomper is because I enjoy playing against lesser skilled players. So as far as contributing to the team goes I’m far from selfish. Someone needs to play the slayer role and that is usually the role of a pub stomper. I’m not trying to defend pub stomping because I have played against some that couldn’t care less about the objective nor are they much fun to play against but you make us out to be the bane of Halo 4.
>
> Your argument concerning a “kd for objective is pointless” is a decent point however some teams do play competitively and do care about their KD. Also why not have a KD for CTF if we have Slayer. I can still go into Slayer and get an unfair KD.
>
> TBH if a player has a KD over 2.5, I just assume part of that has been unfairly obtained and is not a fair representation of skill therefore ignore it. Take my KD. My overall KD is 1.9 almost which I would argue is a fair representation of skill. I’ve improved since I started playing Halo 4 and can now beat most players with ease in TS. However my KD in Ricochet is 3.3 almost which clearly has been gained through pub stomping therefore shouldn’t be taken seriously.
>
> I couldn’t care less if objective KDs went, I’m just going to stand by my previous point that playstyles will not change nor will it accomplish anything. It may even upset those who actually play competitively and actually care about their stats.
> As long as objective games contribute to the overall KD, stat padding will be a problem.
I’m pretty sure your last sentence, contradicted nearly everything else you said. Either that, or I’m just having a difficult time understanding anything you’re saying.