I found their solution for leaving the Dyson sphere to be a little too convenient.
But the feeling I’m left with is that Halsey’s work on the SII program was pretty much for nothing. That Mendez was right and that it was just the proper attitude to get the job done. That John and the rest of the Spartan’s purpose is invalid and worse, weren’t needed from the first place.
But the one thing I’m having trouble with is Pangosky getting all butthurt over the cloning Halsey did.
Its Glasslands, by the way.
Spartans weren’t needed? Where have you been? Just because the Spartans have a “bad” past doesn’t mean they were pointless. It was John that destroyed the Autumn and Alpha Halo. John saved Cairo and destroyed a Covie Supercarrier. Spartans held off armies. Spartans supported Humanity where it was needed. Of course they were backed by the rest of the army, but the UNSC may not have won the war without Spartans on the front lines.
Parangosky is an interesting woman, not to mention she is 91 years old and feared throughout the UNSC. She may have had some past troubles with lying, and that led to her having a bad time when others lie to her. Think about it, if you were creating supersoldiers, and it involved kidnapping 6 year olds. Wouldn’t you be a bit ticked if you found out that someone lied to you about the cloning process? That the clones were actually made and sent “home” to die and cause the families misery?
Humanity would’ve been extinct if it wasn’t for the Spartans.
> Spartans weren’t needed? Where have you been? Just because the Spartans have a “bad” past doesn’t mean they were pointless. It was John that destroyed the Autumn and Alpha Halo. John saved Cairo and destroyed a Covie Supercarrier. Spartans held off armies. Spartans supported Humanity where it was needed. Of course they were backed by the rest of the army, but the UNSC may not have won the war without Spartans on the front lines.
Not that Spartans weren’t needed. The UNSC could fight the Covenant to a standstill on the ground.
It’s that Spartan IIs weren’t needed. The SIII program basically proved they could do what a SII could do without the extensive training times or expensive MJOLNIR suits. That in any given scenario if you replaced the SIIs with the appropriate SIIIs the job would still get done.
> Wouldn’t you be a bit ticked if you found out that someone lied to you about the cloning process? That the clones were actually made and sent “home” to die and cause the families misery?
To me it’s one more sin on top of another. They already kidnapped children, why would the act of cloning them and sending them back to the families to provide closure be somehow worse than stealing military assets during a time of war?
> To me it’s one more sin on top of another. They already kidnapped children, why would the act of cloning them and sending them back to the families to provide closure be somehow worse than <mark>stealing military assets during a time of war?</mark>
Which Maggie is guilty of herself since Fred and the rest of Blue Team was interrogated by an ONI agent about his actions on Reach WHILE the Covenant were well into their invasion of Earth.
> > Spartans weren’t needed? Where have you been? Just because the Spartans have a “bad” past doesn’t mean they were pointless. It was John that destroyed the Autumn and Alpha Halo. John saved Cairo and destroyed a Covie Supercarrier. Spartans held off armies. Spartans supported Humanity where it was needed. Of course they were backed by the rest of the army, but the UNSC may not have won the war without Spartans on the front lines.
>
> Not that Spartans weren’t needed. The UNSC could fight the Covenant to a standstill on the ground.
>
> It’s that Spartan IIs weren’t needed. The SIII program basically proved they could do what a SII could do without the extensive training times or expensive MJOLNIR suits. That in any given scenario if you replaced the SIIs with the appropriate SIIIs the job would still get done.
No, Spartan IIIs generally wouldn’t be able to do Spartan II missions. Did you forget that S-IIIs are sent on suicide missions? Too low for S-IIs but too high for ODSTs. There were less than 50 Spartan IIs and there were still some left 20 years later, and hundreds of IIIs, most of which were killed during suicide missions. Without the IIs, the UNSC would have lost early on. Not to mention the huge morale boost that went through the human population when they heard Spartan supersoldiers were fighting off Covenant all throughout the war. No one knew about the IIIs, they were behind the scenes and kept classified.
Halo Wars: S-IIs held off waves of Honor Guards while Forge dealt with the Arbiter and detonated the core. Without the Spartans, the reactor would have been overrun, and the ships there used against the UNSC. Our fleets would have been crushed.
Insurrection: Without the IIs fighting off the Innies before the Covenant, the UNSC would have collasped or been much weaker when the Covenant arrived.
Earth: IIs held out on Earth for a while, stopping many Covenant excavations. They stopped nuclear missiles from getting in the hands of brutes, and hijacked a Covenant Destroyer to go to Onyx.
Would you like me to continue?
> Would you like me to continue?
And all of that could have been accomplished by SIIIs.
> > Would you like me to continue?
>
> And all of that could have been accomplished by SIIIs.
Disagreed. Spartan-IIs had a much better record than IIIs for getting the job done. More essentially, they came back in one piece most of the time. Spartan-IIIs could not have achieved the lofty heights of the Spartan-IIs without MJOLNIR and years of conditioning. You’ve got to think of necessity.
Think about John. He’s accomplished a lot so far, from leading the Spartan-IIs, to destroying Alpha Halo, to essentially obliterating the Covenant leadership, infiltrating High Charity, blasting the Covenant on Installation-05, defending Earth from the Covenant almost single-handedly in some places, exploring and scouting the Ark, reinfiltrating High Charity to retrieve Cortana, and finally, destroying Installation-04B. All from a single Spartan-II.
That is very key. If you think about the basic principles of the Spartan-III program in relation to these achievements of the Chief’s, you’ll find something interesting. If you wanted to get the same things done with Spartan-IIIs, you would have to plan far ahead. The Spartan-IIIs were not necessarily conveniently there. I highly doubt there would be eight Companies of Spartan-IIIs at the ready in 2552 to sacrifice on the Chief’s missions.
Thus, while they would be sufficient if you had a constant stream of them, Spartan-IIIs are simply not suited for the jobs of Spartan-IIs if they do not survive. This is because they don’t last and are in limited supply. There are simply not enough Spartan-IIIs to do everything the Spartan-IIs do.
The bottom line is really this: both groups of Spartans were created for different purposes. Spartan-IIs are highly skilled and specialized, trained to kill and survive and endure from day one. Spartan-IIIs were created to be completely expendable, arguably on one vital mission per Company (a Company taking years to train).
Spartan-IIs would not be suited to the Spartan-III objectives and Spartan-IIIs would not be abundant enough for the Spartan-II missions. That’s why they’re assigned what they’re assigned. There’s really no comparison.
> > Would you like me to continue?
>
> And all of that could have been accomplished by SIIIs.
Basic Math: 2 comes before 3. Without the Spartan II project there would be no Spartan III project. How could all of that been accomplished by the Spartan IIIs when several major Human saving actions took place years before they were even thought up? Spartan IIIs could not have participated during Halo Wars because Halo Wars starts in February 2531 which is like 10 months before the first batch of Spartan III candidates were even sent to Onyx.
Spartan IIs were not all for nothing. Without them there would be no Spartan IIIs. Without them there would be no Human race.
> > Would you like me to continue?
>
> And all of that could have been accomplished by SIIIs.
Possibly, but its about effeciency. You would need several S-IIIs to do what the IIs did. IIIs rely on mass numbers to get the job done. IIs rely on skill to get the jobs done. Which is why IIs are so important and so looked up on, where IIIs do suicide missions that are too low for IIs but to high for ODSTs.
Onyx- Without the IIs that arrived via a hijacked Covie destroyer, the IIIs wouldn’t have been able to do what they did there. The Sentinl Producer wouldn’t have been stopped, they wouldn’t have made it to the Core. The IIIs didn’t have the numbers they needed.
The S-III program- It was Kurt, a S-II, that led the training of the IIIs. ONI went through the trouble of tricking him so he would come to Onyx and train the IIIs.
Mjolnir- The Mjolnir armor worn by IIs is not only superior to the IIIs SPI armor, it also was an expirement. Now, scientists are still building on Mjolnir, making it better, possibly finding ways to make it for lower troops.
Unyeilding Heirophant- This mission required some stealth. Which is why a small team of IIs were able to get it done. IIIs would have needed hundreds of forces to do this mission, and that would have gotten them wiped out right away. The IIs infiltrated the structure and set it to self destruct, destroying almost 500 Covenant vessels preparing to go to Earth. Earth would have been destroyed much sooner if not for this.
Spartan IIIs were important behind the scenes. Spartan IIs were important on the front lines for various reasons, including a heavy morale boost. Both Spartan Programs got the job done, in different ways though. IIs contribited in their ways, and IIIs contributed in their ways.
I think people forget the S3 missions were SO dangerous, ONI didn’t even want to send Spartan II’s in MJOLNIR mark IV on.
And look, they completed EVERY DAMN OBJECTIVE.
BTW, the author knew nothing of what she was writing, as in ghosts of Onyx there is clear genetic limits, and not just a “We asked random orphans.”
Edit: Also, Spartan 3’s can do what Spartan 2’s did, GIVEN, they had the right equipment.
Um, may I ask why the hell Spartan 3’s cannot perform stealth ops?
> I think people forget the S3 missions were SO dangerous, ONI didn’t even want to send Spartan II’s in MJOLNIR mark IV on.
>
> And look, they completed EVERY DAMN OBJECTIVE.
>
>
>
> BTW, the author knew nothing of what she was writing, as in ghosts of Onyx there is clear genetic limits, and not just a "We asked random orphans.
> Edit: Also, Spartan 3’s can do what Spartan 2’s did, GIVEN, they had the right equipment.
>
>
>
> Um, may I ask why the hell Spartan 3’s cannot perform stealth ops?
The missions weren’t SO dangerous that the didn’t want to use S-IIs, they were suicide missions, and S-IIs were too vital of assets to use on suicide missions. The missions S-IIIs go on are usually described as too low for S-IIs but too high for ODSTs.
They completed every objective, yes. But everytime they either lost their entire company (300+), or were pretty close to losing everyone. Suicide missions, remember.
S-IIIs could do what IIs do with the right equipment, AND the right numbers. IIIs are made to overwhelm the enemy, they usually rely on numbers to get the job done.
IIIs can do a stealth mission, their armor supports it. I said the IIIs wouldn’t be able to do the Unyeilding Heirophant mission befause they would need a lot of IIIs to get the job done. Which, would get them shot down quickly. There were 500 Covenant ships around the station, the IIs used a captured Spirit to get there. The IIIs would have needed several dropships, which would get suspicious. If they did get there, they would have to move their forces in the open against the army of Covies there. It would be no use trying to stealth a hundred IIIs. They would probably be sniped off, picked off by Banshees, or destroyed going head on with brutes. The IIs completed that mission with stealth, they only had to move a few Spartans through there.
We are just trying to get the OP to realize that the war wouldn’t have been won without the IIs. Both Spartan teams did what they were supposed to do, and they all contributed to the end of the Covenant. The IIs did it their way, which ended in a lot of big victories, and the IIIs did it their way, ending in a lot of victories too.
JSA, actually you are wrong. The ‘suicide missions’ were labeled TOO dangerous for ODST or S2 deployment. Again, S3’s given the right equipment wouldn’t need an army to do what the S2’s did.
Noble Team anybody?
You are literally saying that it takes 300 spartan III’s to do what a group of 5 S2’s could do. Which is wrong.
Despite reading it, I still feel it’s a -Yoink- move from Parangosky to arrest Halsey for the cloning.
Somebody at ONI had to have approved of it.
> JSA, actually you are wrong. The ‘suicide missions’ were labeled TOO dangerous for ODST or S2 deployment. Again, S3’s given the right equipment wouldn’t need an army to do what the S2’s did.
>
> Noble Team anybody?
>
> You are literally saying that it takes 300 spartan III’s to do what a group of 5 S2’s could do. Which is wrong.
Spartan IIIs were made as cheaper and more expendable versions of the IIs to go on behind the scenes missions that they wouldn’t have IIs do because the IIs are not expendable and are vital to the UNSC military efforts and Humanity’s morale. They are not to dangerous for IIs. The IIs are 40 year old supersoldiers. The IIIs are cheap, expendable 12-15 year olds sent on suicide missions.
What your saying is that those missions are too dangerous for several 40 year old supersoldiers in superior armor, but just right for 12-15 year olds outfitted in lightweight armor designed for stealth?
> > JSA, actually you are wrong. The ‘suicide missions’ were labeled TOO dangerous for ODST or S2 deployment. Again, S3’s given the right equipment wouldn’t need an army to do what the S2’s did.
> >
> > Noble Team anybody?
> >
> > You are literally saying that it takes 300 spartan III’s to do what a group of 5 S2’s could do. Which is wrong.
>
> Spartan IIIs were made as cheaper and more expendable versions of the IIs to go on behind the scenes missions that they wouldn’t have IIs do because the IIs are not expendable and are vital to the UNSC military efforts and Humanity’s morale. They are not to dangerous for IIs. The IIs are 40 year old supersoldiers. The IIIs are cheap, expendable 12-15 year olds sent on suicide missions.
>
> What your saying is that those missions are too dangerous for several 40 year old supersoldiers in superior armor, but just right for 12-15 year olds outfitted in lightweight armor designed for stealth?
If they weren’t too dangerous, then why weren’t S2’s used on those deployments?
The Spartan 3’s are cheaper because they lack the advanced armor of S2’s. They are expendable to Ackerson, and were not trained that way. S3 training has been labeled as Better then s2 training.
Again, NOBLE TEAM. Disproves your damn point. 4 S3’s, given the right gear, did the mission in the package(Halo Reach), which was similar to some S2 deployments. According to you, this would only be possible with at least 100 S3’s. Likewise, 2 S3’s, given good gear, delivered the package to the PoA, which could be labeled as similar to what Chief faced in some of his missions. According to you, it’d take hundreds.
What I’m saying is, ONI knew deploying S2’s or ODSTs on those ‘suicide missions’ would result in heavy losses, probably complete wipeout. The S3’s were deployed, completed EVERY SINGLE OBJECTIVE, and was wiped out for one reason. Cut off from extraction. Alpha company lost unit cohesion after overwhelming counter-attack but held for several days before that. Beta company was winning until cruisers came in and started mass deploying reinforcements.
You are saying S2’s could’ve done that with no problem?
I call -Yoink-.
> > > JSA, actually you are wrong. The ‘suicide missions’ were labeled TOO dangerous for ODST or S2 deployment. Again, S3’s given the right equipment wouldn’t need an army to do what the S2’s did.
> > >
> > > Noble Team anybody?
> > >
> > > You are literally saying that it takes 300 spartan III’s to do what a group of 5 S2’s could do. Which is wrong.
> >
> > Spartan IIIs were made as cheaper and more expendable versions of the IIs to go on behind the scenes missions that they wouldn’t have IIs do because the IIs are not expendable and are vital to the UNSC military efforts and Humanity’s morale. They are not to dangerous for IIs. The IIs are 40 year old supersoldiers. The IIIs are cheap, expendable 12-15 year olds sent on suicide missions.
> >
> > What your saying is that those missions are too dangerous for several 40 year old supersoldiers in superior armor, but just right for 12-15 year olds outfitted in lightweight armor designed for stealth?
>
> If they weren’t too dangerous, then why weren’t S2’s used on those deployments?
>
> The Spartan 3’s are cheaper because they lack the advanced armor of S2’s. They are expendable to Ackerson, and were not trained that way. S3 training has been labeled as Better then s2 training.
>
> Again, NOBLE TEAM. Disproves your damn point. 4 S3’s, given the right gear, did the mission in the package(Halo Reach), which was similar to some S2 deployments. According to you, this would only be possible with at least 100 S3’s. Likewise, 2 S3’s, given good gear, delivered the package to the PoA, which could be labeled as similar to what Chief faced in some of his missions. According to you, it’d take hundreds.
>
> What I’m saying is, ONI knew deploying S2’s or ODSTs on those ‘suicide missions’ would result in heavy losses, probably complete wipeout. The S3’s were deployed, completed EVERY SINGLE OBJECTIVE, and was wiped out for one reason. Cut off from extraction. Alpha company lost unit cohesion after overwhelming counter-attack but held for several days before that. Beta company was winning until cruisers came in and started mass deploying reinforcements.
>
> You are saying S2’s could’ve done that with no problem?
>
> I call -Yoink!-.
Because Spartan IIs were much more important. They aren’t expendable, when a II is gone it is gone. Their armor is extremely expensive, if it falls into Covenant hands their sheilds and armor would be much harder to destroy. And the IIs are a huge morale boost to the UNSC. The IIs were going to stay classified until 2549, when the UNSC desperately needed something to boost morale.
Spartan III training lasted less than 10 years. It was rushed. The trainees were forced through early puberty!
Noble Team consisted of special Spartan IIIs. They possesed leadership elements and were just different from the rest. They were either IIIs that seemed too special to waste on suicide missions or survivors from other companies. Because we are talking about IIIs in general, and Noble Team was equipped with the Spartan II’s Mjolnir Armor, you can’t really use them in the arguement. Using the arguement that IIIs given the right equipment are just as good as IIs is more or less true, but using Mjolnir pretty much makes them a S-II.
IIIs were wiped out because of no extraction yes, but they wouldn’t have succeded without the numbers. IIIs rely on numbers to finish the mission.
I didn’t say IIs can do III missions without a fuss either. It would be difficult for IIs to do those missions, mainly because there are only a few IIs. 300 Spartan IIs would wipe out the enemy objective pretty easily, probably faster and more efficiently than IIIs could do it.
And IIIs have flaws. They are young, and they have side effects for their augmentations. Their augmentations include something that increases their combat ability when they are in a bad situation. Without certain things that help control that, they will get out of control. Like when Lucy punched Dr. Halsey. They were trained to control themselves, and this wasn’t control.
> But the one thing I’m having trouble with is Pangosky getting all butthurt over the cloning Halsey did.
I don’t think Parangosky was mad about the cloning. It was more that it was a selfish move on Halsey’s part, to make herself feel better. Parangosky even said the clones weren’t needed, she knew about them, and the kidnapping. It seems she was more mad that Halsey potentially jeopardized the program by putting the clones in play. It was said that Naomi’s dad knew something was up. A genetic disease that nobody else in the family has tends to throw up red flags.
> Despite reading it, I still feel it’s a -Yoink!- move from Parangosky to arrest Halsey for the cloning.
> Somebody at ONI had to have approved of it.
Halsey said the cloning was all her, that she fudged numbers to get it done. And the arrest looks like it was more of a political move in front of the Spartans. They already declared Halsey dead, they didn’t need to arrest her, they could have just locked her up, or killed her as soon as they had her isolated. They still needed her, but they needed it to look legit, otherwise the Spartan IIs that were there would have done something.
You just proved you haven’t done your research of S3’s.
Only gamma company had the augmentation which increased aggression and allowed them to keep fighting after a major injury.
Lucy did not have that augmentation.
> I don’t think Parangosky was mad about the cloning. It was more that it was a selfish move on Halsey’s part, to make herself feel better. Parangosky even said the clones weren’t needed, she knew about them, and the kidnapping. It seems she was more mad that Halsey potentially jeopardized the program by putting the clones in play. It was said that Naomi’s dad knew something was up. A genetic disease that nobody else in the family has tends to throw up red flags.
A few things to consider. One, the well-being of the families. Even if you think it was just an excuse on Halsey’s part, it’s still important. What do you think is worse, a parent becoming depressed after the death of their child or the constant agony of wondering what is happening to your child at the hands of kidnappers. It sucks to see your child die, it would suck even more to imagine what some kidnapper is doing to your child. What you can’t see is scarier than what you can see. Second, ONI bungled handling Naomi’s father. If they knew he was suspicious and they didn’t act on that, that can’t be blamed on Halsey, especially when every other parent bought it. They could’ve assassinated her father and pinned it on the rebels and nobody would bat an eyelash.