I’ve been seeing some forums about this guy since Halo 5, and a lot of people seem disappointed that he died in an anti-climactic manner. They seem to think he should have gone to Sanghelios and fight Arbiter to the death in an epic battle between two leaders of their people. Instead, he dies pathetically at the hands of Spartan Locke. I think that suited him just fine.
In the Kilo-5 trilogy, Karen Traviss made a rather bad, cartoonishly evil character with little to no redemptive qualities: I’m talking of Jul M’dama, of course. In Glasslands, he seems to see the Humans as some kind of always-breeding plague on the Galaxy which will inevitably overrun the Sangheili, eventually waging war against the Covenant Remnants for control of breeding space. This is so ridiculous, it’s not even funny. Human space most likely encompasses 250 to 300 light years (I base this off how long it takes for a UNSC ship - travelling at 2.625 LY per day- to travel from Reach to Harvest, the furthest colony from Earth), and their population, in the year 2511, is rather low at 39 billion.
The Sangehili, on the other hand, have been a space-faring race for over 3000 years. Under the authority of the Covenant, they have colonized a fairly large region of the Galaxy, probably half of the Orion Arm, and their colonies and outposts most likely number in the tens of thousands. And we’ve got Jul M’dama worrying about these backwater primitives, the Humans, one day overrunning them. He seems to think they’ll have no where to go and colonize into Covenant space.
Well, Earth and it’s star, Sol, seems to be smack-dab in the middle of the Orion Arm, so I don’t get why Jul M’dama thinks Humans won’t do the logical thing and expand outwards along the Orion Arm, away from Covenant settlements; you know, the way the Ancient Humans did to escape from Forerunner influence.
Jul M’dama simply comes off as an ignorant savage. But this is Karen Traviss’ fault; she wrote a series of books depicting the Sangheili as a typical warrior race that doesn’t understand how to farm their own lands and feed themselves, who don’t understand a bloody thing about politics and who don’t lie, and the majority of whom seem to, for whatever reason, to despise Humans, and who want to get rid of Humanity but can’t, because their society is crumbling around them (even though in Halo 3, the Human fleet was whittled down to two frigates, while the Sangheili had a Super Carrier, which should have been enough to finish off the Human race when they had the chance).
Jul M’dama is also a hypocrite; in Glasslands, he bashes the Humans for being liars, but in the Thursday War, he pretends to be a prophet so he can recruit an army of backwater zealots in his personal crusade against Humanity, so he can avenge the death of his wife. Because, to him, the Covenant can murder billions of Humans over a lie, but Humans killing this guy’s woman is grounds for continuing the genocide. Ultimately, Jul is a product of a highly aggressive and expansionary empire that believes they can do whatever they want to whomever they want; but unlike the Arbiter, Jul doesn’t learn from his past mistakes, and instead decides to hold a grudge against the race that he and his people gravely wronged.
Jul m’dama is a whining, ignorant and hypocritical cartoon villain with no depth and no redeeming qualities, and he deserved the pathetic death he got at the start of Halo 5; going out in a blaze of glory in battle against the Arbiter is simply too good for him.
You criticize him for some of the reasons I think he is a solid character, his hypocrisy. He pretty much deconstructs the Sangheili trope of being a race of Proud Warrior Guys. At the start we see him struggling to hand onto that concept of honor. His reaction to wanting to destroy humanity has a thin line of logic to it, usually when an oppression has their back to the wall or has their capabilities reduced they get very defensive about retribution. I think Jul is portrayed early on as way too paranoid over humanities capabilities, that is certainly a problem I see. But each hardship he goes through seems to have a point. He tries to settle the score with the Arbiter the traditional way and joins the Servants of Abiding Truth, but he is essentially put on the low end of the totem poll and finds progress moving too slowly. He eventually finds ONI’s influence on 'Telcam and is detained. It might be easy to say how dare him for still wanting to kill humanity, but he sees humans meddling in the affairs of the Sangheili and crystalize his fears. At this point I’d say the traditional Sangheili honor system is ruined for Jul, especially when he has to resort to trickery to escape Treyvalan.
I found his role as a false prophet to be an ironic one. He is essentially a Forerunner atheist and yet commands a religious army of zealots. Yeah, it is hypocritical, but Jul has always been about amassing influence in order to take down the Arbiter and defend his people from what he sees as human threats. I mean, throw in ONI’s actions, his imprisonment and, the death of his wife and it gets harder to see him as some crazy nut. Horribly misguided certainly, but it isn’t like he has no reasons. And this path really sets him apart from other Sangheili. He isn’t bound by Sangheili honor codes, he has no problem resorting to trickery or cunning, and he has no problem lying about religion.
It is his relationship with Halsey that I think could have turned things around for him. I don’t believe for a second either were going to hold up to any agreements they made, Halsey certainly. But him willing to work with a human period and allow her to mock him openly at times is fairly revealing. By Halo 5 with his Covenant fractured and his influence effectively ruined, it would have been interesting to see where this character whose traditional Sangheili beliefs were gone and was in a losing situation could have gone. He did not have to fight the Arbiter, but with the Guardians rising and Cortana threatening everybody, his relationship with Halsey could have at least cooled his hatred long enough to refocus himself more as an actual protector of the Sangheili than a despot. Halsey’s situation could have made him see that the humans have their own problems and that immediate retribution was a fool’s game. But we will never know since Osiris had to be made to look cool.
I’m disappointed that he was killed in a cinematic. 343i missed the perfect opportunity for a boss fight.
> 2533274812652989;2:
> You criticize him for some of the reasons I think he is a solid character, his hypocrisy. He pretty much deconstructs the Sangheili trope of being a race of Proud Warrior Guys. At the start we see him struggling to hand onto that concept of honor. His reaction to wanting to destroy humanity has a thin line of logic to it, usually when an oppression has their back to the wall or has their capabilities reduced they get very defensive about retribution. I think Jul is portrayed early on as way too paranoid over humanities capabilities, that is certainly a problem I see. But each hardship he goes through seems to have a point. He tries to settle the score with the Arbiter the traditional way and joins the Servants of Abiding Truth, but he is essentially put on the low end of the totem poll and finds progress moving too slowly. He eventually finds ONI’s influence on 'Telcam and is detained. It might be easy to say how dare him for still wanting to kill humanity, but he sees humans meddling in the affairs of the Sangheili and crystalize his fears. At this point I’d say the traditional Sangheili honor system is ruined for Jul, especially when he has to resort to trickery to escape Treyvalan.
>
> I found his role as a false prophet to be an ironic one. He is essentially a Forerunner atheist and yet commands a religious army of zealots. Yeah, it is hypocritical, but Jul has always been about amassing influence in order to take down the Arbiter and defend his people from what he sees as human threats. I mean, throw in ONI’s actions, his imprisonment and, the death of his wife and it gets harder to see him as some crazy nut. Horribly misguided certainly, but it isn’t like he has no reasons. And this path really sets him apart from other Sangheili. He isn’t bound by Sangheili honor codes, he has no problem resorting to trickery or cunning, and he has no problem lying about religion.
>
> It is his relationship with Halsey that I think could have turned things around for him. I don’t believe for a second either were going to hold up to any agreements they made, Halsey certainly. But him willing to work with a human period and allow her to mock him openly at times is fairly revealing. By Halo 5 with his Covenant fractured and his influence effectively ruined, it would have been interesting to see where this character whose traditional Sangheili beliefs were gone and was in a losing situation could have gone. He did not have to fight the Arbiter, but with the Guardians rising and Cortana threatening everybody, his relationship with Halsey could have at least cooled his hatred long enough to refocus himself more as an actual protector of the Sangheili than a despot. Halsey’s situation could have made him see that the humans have their own problems and that immediate retribution was a fool’s game. But we will never know since Osiris had to be made to look cool.
Sure, ONI arming Sangheili dissidents to begin a civil war and keep them divided,abducting Jul and imprisoning him, using him as a guinea pig to test their “Sangheili genocide Bio-weapon”, the UNSC interfering in the Sangheili’s affairs and the death of his wife are certainly grounds for despising Humanity. All this would have been fine with me, except that before any of this actually happens, he still wanted to destroy Humanity, simply because: “They breed like the Flood, they’ll overrun us!” Like I said before, he just comes off as ignorant.
I actually thought that Jul masquerading as a Prophet, while not actually believing what he preaches, was an interesting touch; it has a dash of realism to it, as religious fundamentalists tend to be the most hypocritical. And I liked his partnership with Halsey, as it actually provided some depth to him and showed off his pragmatic side. I guess my dislike for Jul comes from my dislike of Glasslands and Thursday War, as I see Jul as the very personification of why I hate those books; the Elites portrayal as backwards savages who can’t even do their own farming, and ignoring the canon reason for the Great Schism (the Elites growing dissatisfied with the Prophets and their refusal to allow Humans to join the Covenant, and the prophet of Truth no longer trusting them to enforce the Covenant’s will).
And their feelings towards Humans. In general, they all seem to despise Humans and want to go on wiping them out. Basically, it was the Prophets who justified the war against Humans, and the prophets are now considered to be liars, so the Covenant’s political reasons for destroying Humanity seems to be a nonissue. In addition, the Humans never managed to hurt the Covenant(and Elites) the same way the Covenant hurt Humanity; all Humans ever managed to do was win a few tactical victories in fleet actions and ground combat, and they only destroyed one, frontier colony with a meager population. you would think that the majority of Elites would be indifferent to Humans, rather than friendly or hostile.
Enough ranting.
I do, at least, enjoy his portrayal in Spartan Ops and Escalation, but my problem is with Glasslands and Thursday War, when we actually get inside his head.
No doubt those books weren’t good, but I think his ignorance is the point. His hatred is irrational, but sometimes such people exist. I think had he worked from a more neutral angle he may have had a better start. It would have been good to see circumstances force him to move past that. His traditional values were wreaked, his current values based on deceit fell apart, now he’d have to start from square one.
It was a great character. I didn’t like how he died, 343i could make he die in a better epic way.
ONI were literally considering poisoning his entire planet and colonising it. His wife was killed in a battle that involved an incredibly large human ship. He was kidnapped and imprisoned…by Humans.
He’s a great villain, because (unlike the Didact of Halo 4) he wasn’t just killing for the sake of it. He genuinely believed humanity was a threat to his entire species. And he was right.
He’s actually the greatest villain Halo has to offer, because his motivation actually makes sense.
We had a villain that was scared for the safety of his race, someone who wasn’t committing terrible acts simply because they’re “the bad guy”.
If humanity found out that the Sanghelli were planning to destroy and recolonise the Earth, you know for a fact the humans would be behaving the same way. Heck, John would probably be sent out to find the absolute record to use it as a weapon against them, much the way Jul was.
But no, 343 wanted evil Cortana instead. Great job, guys.
> 2533274827167643;7:
> ONI were literally considering poisoning his entire planet and colonising it. His wife was killed in a battle that involved an incredibly large human ship. He was kidnapped and imprisoned…by Humans.
>
> He’s a great villain, because (unlike the Didact of Halo 4) he wasn’t just killing for the sake of it. He genuinely believed humanity was a threat to his entire species. And he was right.
>
> He’s actually the greatest villain Halo has to offer, because his motivation actually makes sense.
> We had a villain that was scared for the safety of his race, someone who wasn’t committing terrible acts simply because they’re “the bad guy”.
>
> If humanity found out that the Sanghelli were planning to destroy and recolonise the Earth, you know for a fact the humans would be behaving the same way. Heck, John would probably be sent out to find the absolute record to use it as a weapon against them, much the way Jul was.
>
> But no, 343 wanted evil Cortana instead. Great job, guys.
I thought Jul was a great character, I can’t even read the Kilo-5 books anymore (he was the best part of them). Hopefully 343 could pull a Darth Maul and bring him back. If Darth Maul could live through being cut in half, then Jul should be able to live through a knife to the shoulder/neck.
> 2533274830700227;8:
> > 2533274827167643;7:
> > ONI were literally considering poisoning his entire planet and colonising it. His wife was killed in a battle that involved an incredibly large human ship. He was kidnapped and imprisoned…by Humans.
> >
> > He’s a great villain, because (unlike the Didact of Halo 4) he wasn’t just killing for the sake of it. He genuinely believed humanity was a threat to his entire species. And he was right.
> >
> > He’s actually the greatest villain Halo has to offer, because his motivation actually makes sense.
> > We had a villain that was scared for the safety of his race, someone who wasn’t committing terrible acts simply because they’re “the bad guy”.
> >
> > If humanity found out that the Sanghelli were planning to destroy and recolonise the Earth, you know for a fact the humans would be behaving the same way. Heck, John would probably be sent out to find the absolute record to use it as a weapon against them, much the way Jul was.
> >
> > But no, 343 wanted evil Cortana instead. Great job, guys.
>
>
> I thought Jul was a great character, I can’t even read the Kilo-5 books anymore (he was the best part of them). Hopefully 343 could pull a Darth Maul and bring him back. If Darth Maul could live through being cut in half, then Jul should be able to live through a knife to the shoulder/neck.
Jul 'Mdama body double theory. His character in Halo 5 seemed off (he never referred to himself as the Didact’s even once, but now he demands everyone to treat him the respect some title deserves? He took that title out of necessity, not personal glory), for some reason he was speaking English to Halsey despite 1. Outlawing English under his Covenant and 2. Halsey can understand Sangheili just fine, and despite Jul’s control of the Prometheans being a significant plot point in Escalation: Janus Key arc then not long after Jul for some reason loses it.
The two main points are some of the significant stuff, the last point was kinda explained but it’s a significant waste.
Its not clear how long Osiris hung around after they got Halsey. They most likely high tailed it out of there pretty sharpish, meaning that if some Covenant forces were still kicking about, they could have come to his aid and stopped the bleeding, though he did look pretty dead after Locke had his way with him.
> 2533274810945725;10:
> Its not clear how long Osiris hung around after they got Halsey. They most likely high tailed it out of there pretty sharpish, meaning that if some Covenant forces were still kicking about, they could have come to his aid and stopped the bleeding, though he did look pretty dead after Locke had his way with him.
It was Sali 'Nyon who was killed. Somehow within the 3 or so weeks between Escalation 24 and Halo 5 Jul had captured him and placed a brevet mutation using a modified Forerunner device given by the Didact.
No, I’m not in denial. 
Ok, jokes aside, I believe Jul to be one of the most morally complicated characters seen thorough out the fiction, even someone who rivals Halsey in terms of moral ambiguity and complexity. Unlike the majority of Sangheili characters (notably the post war era but pre war as well can be considered) who are either good, honour bound soldiers or religious nut jobs (a very black and white approach to morality. Notable cases: Thel 'Vadam or Sali 'Nyon), Jul’s character is too complex to fit in either of those categories. He doesn’t fight for personal glory or for religious stupidity like Sali -Yoinking!- 'Nyon, and he is certainly not a “good guy” like how the majority (if bit all) of Sword of Sanghelios characters have been portrayed so far (which personal causes me to loss interest in the SOS to be completely honest. I won’t go into it, but… There’s my thoughts on them). He doesn’t fight humanity mainly due to racism or (again) religious stupidity, but he fights them as he believes them to be a genuine threat to his species. He suffered at the hands of ONI. He suffered the collapse of his society, he has witnessed Humans plotting to wipe out his species, meddling in affairs they should not be involved with. The death of his wife was his final straw, which caused something to break in Jul. I man (well, Sangheili) who has nothing left to lose (figuratively speaking, considering his son is still out there in the custody of Avu Med 'Telcam).
A complex character with a huge, HUGE amount of potential that got -Yoinking!- wasted because 343 wanted to show off their new toy. If anyone needs me I’ll be in my angry dome.
> 2533274926227685;12:
> Ok, jokes aside, I believe Jul to be one of the most morally complicated characters seen thorough out the fiction, even someone who rivals Halsey in terms of moral ambiguity and complexity. Unlike the majority of Sangheili characters (notably the post war era but pre war as well can be considered) who are either good, honour bound soldiers or religious nut jobs (a very black and white approach to morality. Notable cases: Thel 'Vadam or Sali 'Nyon), Jul’s character is too complex to fit in either of those categories. He doesn’t fight for personal glory or for religious stupidity like Sali -Yoinking!- 'Nyon, and he is certainly not a “good guy” like how the majority (if bit all) of Sword of Sanghelios characters have been portrayed so far (which personal causes me to loss interest in the SOS to be completely honest. I won’t go into it, but… There’s my thoughts on them). He digest fight humanity mainly due to racism or (again) religious stupidity, but he fights them as he believes them to be a genuine threat to his species. He suffered at the hands of ONI. He suffered the collapse of his society, he has witnessed Humans plotting to wipe out his species, meddling in affairs they should not be involved with. The death of his wife was his final straw, which caused something to break in Jul. I man (well, Sangheili) who has nothing left to lose (figuratively speaking, considering his son is still out there in the custody of Avu Med 'Telcam).
>
> A complex character with a huge, HUGE amount of potential that got -Yoinking!- wasted because 343 wanted to show off their new toy. If anyone needs me I’ll be in my angry dome.
Indeed.
Say what you will about Traviss, the story she crafted for Jul was one of the most complex and interesting inthe series.
I agree with Halsey/Cobra almost whole heartedly.
The only point of disagreement I have with posts on this thread is Jul being a boss fight. We have to remember, from all the media we’ve had of him (Kilo-5, Escalation, SpOps), he’s been portrayed as a somewhat inept combatant and certainly not to the level of discipline or capability the Arbiter is. I do think I would have enjoyed seeing him live at least until Sunaion if not after the fact, but I do not think he’d make a good boss fight. He surrounded himself with thugs to do the fighting, but he was often quite reluctant to fight. Meanwhile, Thel has historically been at the frontlines if he could help it.
He totally should be a Covenant Warzone & Warzone Firefight boss.
Fuel Rod Canon, Energy Sword, Plasma Grenade, super agility, and HEAVY HEAVY HEAVY ENERGY SHIELDS !!!
I know some people thought of him as interesting character, but to me he was kinda just another threat that didn’t seem that threatening despite being the main leader of the Covenant remnant.
I dunno, he just wasn’t really interesting but whatever he’s dead and gone and I’m pretty indifferent about it.
> 2533274926227685;11:
> > 2533274810945725;10:
> > Its not clear how long Osiris hung around after they got Halsey. They most likely high tailed it out of there pretty sharpish, meaning that if some Covenant forces were still kicking about, they could have come to his aid and stopped the bleeding, though he did look pretty dead after Locke had his way with him.
>
>
> It was Sali 'Nyon who was killed. Somehow within the 3 or so weeks between Escalation 24 and Halo 5 Jul had captured him and placed a brevet mutation using a modified Forerunner device given by the Didact.
>
> No, I’m not in denial.
Sali 'Nyon was not dead. He is alive and he had got the Song of Retribution
> 2533274972631064;17:
> > 2533274926227685;11:
> > > 2533274810945725;10:
> > > Its not clear how long Osiris hung around after they got Halsey. They most likely high tailed it out of there pretty sharpish, meaning that if some Covenant forces were still kicking about, they could have come to his aid and stopped the bleeding, though he did look pretty dead after Locke had his way with him.
> >
> >
> > It was Sali 'Nyon who was killed. Somehow within the 3 or so weeks between Escalation 24 and Halo 5 Jul had captured him and placed a brevet mutation using a modified Forerunner device given by the Didact.
> >
> > No, I’m not in denial.
>
>
> Sali 'Nyon was not dead. He is alive and he had got the Song of Retribution
It’s a joke.
<.<
>.>
No it isn’t.
But really it’s a joke.
And its Breath of Annihilation. Not the Song of Retribution.
> 2533274827167643;7:
> ONI were literally considering poisoning his entire planet and colonising it. His wife was killed in a battle that involved an incredibly large human ship. He was kidnapped and imprisoned…by Humans.
>
> He’s a great villain, because (unlike the Didact of Halo 4) he wasn’t just killing for the sake of it. He genuinely believed humanity was a threat to his entire species. And he was right.
>
> He’s actually the greatest villain Halo has to offer, because his motivation actually makes sense.
> We had a villain that was scared for the safety of his race, someone who wasn’t committing terrible acts simply because they’re “the bad guy”.
>
> If humanity found out that the Sanghelli were planning to destroy and recolonise the Earth, you know for a fact the humans would be behaving the same way. Heck, John would probably be sent out to find the absolute record to use it as a weapon against them, much the way Jul was.
>
> But no, 343 wanted evil Cortana instead. Great job, guys.
Excuse my lower intelligence of Halo lore, but where did you find that? I’m not trying to be rude, I just want to know so I could get a look.
> 2533274969718805;19:
> > 2533274827167643;7:
> > ONI were literally considering poisoning his entire planet and colonising it. His wife was killed in a battle that involved an incredibly large human ship. He was kidnapped and imprisoned…by Humans.
> >
> > He’s a great villain, because (unlike the Didact of Halo 4) he wasn’t just killing for the sake of it. He genuinely believed humanity was a threat to his entire species. And he was right.
> >
> > He’s actually the greatest villain Halo has to offer, because his motivation actually makes sense.
> > We had a villain that was scared for the safety of his race, someone who wasn’t committing terrible acts simply because they’re “the bad guy”.
> >
> > If humanity found out that the Sanghelli were planning to destroy and recolonise the Earth, you know for a fact the humans would be behaving the same way. Heck, John would probably be sent out to find the absolute record to use it as a weapon against them, much the way Jul was.
> >
> > But no, 343 wanted evil Cortana instead. Great job, guys.
>
>
> Excuse my lower intelligence of Halo lore, but where did you find that? I’m not trying to be rude, I just want to know so I could get a look.
Glasslands and The Thursday War.