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What am I even reading? Demoralized kids don’t buy the next Halo because of spawn killing. Seriously?..
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> What am I even reading? Demoralized kids don’t buy the next Halo because of spawn killing. Seriously?..
Then no one would have bought Halo 2 after CE lol.
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I didn’t have an issue with random people from around the world spawn killing me…maybe you did…idk…lol. The friends I played with didn’t believe in cheap kills like that. They were more in your face wanting you to see it coming and still die. But to the point of demoralized kids not buying the next Halo, yes I believe Halo is a dying ship. Why can’t we see player population, why sometimes does it take 20 min to find Spartans? I’m not saying I know why, but I do know young folk round here live in the gimmie gimmie gimmie now now now world. They put the game away if they don’t immediately decimate all. Probably all the chemicals in the food and water now thats giving them a.d.d.
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LOL THESE GUYS. I’M OUT. NAMASTE 
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> > It takes skill to control the map’s spawns and force the enemy team to spawn in known location. This is not cheating, no, and in fact it takes quite a lot of skill.
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> No, it does not take skill to sit on one end of a small map and sit there with your scope knowing where they are going to spawn. That’s the difference between shooting an opponent, and shooting a paper target. It is not skill, it just takes learned knowledge of the map to know where the few spawn points are. Its not technically cheating because the game allows it. Its a part of the game that IMO needs to be fixed.
You need a team of skilled players that are skilled enough to hold these positions to force a spawn. No one can simply camp on a known point solo and cash in sort of speak. It is heavily coordinated which is why I agree with Snicker. The act of shooting or exploiting the spawn doesn’t take much skill but the team effort it took to create that opportunity takes a good amount of skill, coordination, and map knowledge.
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> It takes skill to control the map’s spawns and force the enemy team to spawn in known location. This is not cheating, no, and in fact it takes quite a lot of skill.
Not to mention its been around since the start of everything, Halo CE. It’s not considered cheating but people on the receiving end of spawn killing/force spawning will often think of it as cheating. It’s quite funny, actually.
Infection, cough “station Zulu” cough “ drillsite”
ive had several instances where i don’t even spawn(die before my hud even shows) it can be extremely painful at those times for the whole match. maybe if in those instances the spawns revert to FFA Spawns to change up the spawn locations to trick up the team would be good. but would be tricky to configure.
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> > What am I even reading? Demoralized kids don’t buy the next Halo because of spawn killing. Seriously?..
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> Then no one would have bought Halo 2 after CE lol.
CE spawning killing is bad have to admit for xbox live…, but your forgetting something. Xbox live didn’t exist. pretty much 80 to 90 percent of the halo CE population didn’t have 16 player lan matches. we only got to 8 player lan matches with 3 xboxs when i was young. i don’t think bungie was really expecting it. Xbox live made it extremely possible to learn spawn locations/strategies. plus the internet is a massive influence on strategies now then back then. These days though this kind of thing is extremely impressionable on a younger/teen audience. if halo 6 can be extremely learnt easy for spawns as halo 5 it could be a bad problem.
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> What am I even reading? Demoralized kids don’t buy the next Halo because of spawn killing. Seriously?..
I don’t know why I always seem to pick on you, but…
Is spawn killing the single feature that will stop some kid from buying the next Halo? Probably not. Is spawn killing something you can add to a lengthy list of game features and characteristics that make Halo a relatively hostile environment for any player, let alone new players? I think so. I think what Mr. Shark is saying is that at some point, as the developer favors ever-wider skill gaps, ever-higher skill floors, an ever-more cut throat game in general, then all they’ve really done is create a space where all that has to happen is for a new player to run across one match against players who are above his skill level and suddenly CoD looks pretty good. Halo looks like (if he’s easily frustrated) it’s filled with cheaters, or looks like (if he’s not easily frustrated) that it’s still more trouble than it could ever possibly be worth. And these days there are too many other options for that gamer. Not everyone thinks spending an afternoon being wrecked by a combination of low population and no-life sweats is the definition of gaming fun, and at some point 343 will need to wake up to that reality. Maybe Halo 4 was too casual and too easy, but Halo 5 is definitely too difficult and too hostile and spawn killing is just one example of that. And it’s an especially egregious example because it’s something that doesn’t need to exist - the fact that it takes skill to execute is immaterial. It takes skill to rob a bank but that doesn’t make bank robbery desirable.
So yeah, I think he may actually be right.
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> all that has to happen is for a new player to run across one match against players who are above his skill level and suddenly CoD looks pretty good. Halo looks like (if he’s easily frustrated) it’s filled with cheaters, or looks like (if he’s not easily frustrated) that it’s still more trouble than it could ever possibly be worth.
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> Not everyone thinks spending an afternoon being wrecked by a combination of low population and no-life sweats is the definition of gaming fun, and at some point 343 will need to wake up to that reality.
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> And it’s an especially egregious example because it’s something that doesn’t need to exist
If a new player is thinking about quitting after they have their first bad match, they should probably reevaluate why they’re even playing video games. To go off your second point, realistically, how many games is someone gonna have in an afternoon where they’re getting spawn killed all the time? Sure, it’s gonna happen, but I think overall they’re gonna have a somewhat normal experience especially when there’s several playlists to choose from which aren’t all gonna be filled with sweats.
I don’t think any game dev is thinking their game is gonna tank while they’re making it. The normal thing to do would be to make spawns based on an evenly matched game and then add a few emergency spawns. There’s only so much they can add before it starts to negatively impact the game like people spawning behind you for example. The matchmaker also has to do its job as well to make the best possible matches.
For your last point, they can minimize the impact of spawn killing, but I highly doubt they’re ever gonna get rid of it. It’s just the nature of the beast with a game like this and fixed spawn points. Even if they somehow did do it, people are always gonna find a way to take advantage of the system.
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> If a new player is thinking about quitting after they have their first bad match, they should probably reevaluate why they’re even playing video games. To go off your second point, realistically, how many games is someone gonna have in an afternoon where they’re getting spawn killed all the time? Sure, it’s gonna happen, but I think overall they’re gonna have a somewhat normal experience especially when there’s several playlists to choose from which aren’t all gonna be filled with sweats.
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> I don’t think any game dev is thinking their game is gonna tank while they’re making it. The normal thing to do would be to make spawns based on an evenly matched game and then add a few emergency spawns. There’s only so much they can add before it starts to negatively impact the game like people spawning behind you for example. The matchmaker also has to do its job as well to make the best possible matches.
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> For your last point, they can minimize the impact of spawn killing, but I highly doubt they’re ever gonna get rid of it. It’s just the nature of the beast with a game like this and fixed spawn points. Even if they somehow did do it, people are always gonna find a way to take advantage of the system.
Nothing here I disagree with. In and of itself, spawn camping is not a horrendous problem for the average player. But it is part of what I see as a larger pattern behind a game that isn’t as welcoming to new players as it could be, a game I’d say that isn’t very friendly to anybody below maybe mid platinum. I see a lot of barriers to entry, I see a high skill floor, a wide skill gap, and a game that just generally wants to make hyper-competitive players feel like it was worth their trouble to show up.
On the subject of devs not thinking their game is gonna tank while they’re making it: I’m not saying that you build a game with failure in mind. I’m saying that they should be building games in the certainty that they will spend most of their lifespans with a low population. That’s just simple truth. It doesn’t mean a game is unsuccessful or a failure - it means that Halo 3 is still supported on xbox live at the ripe old age of what now? Ten or Eleven? I think longevity and lifespan are better served by a game that’s built to withstand changing populations than they are by building an incredibly difficult game with a skill gap so wide that players from opposite ends of the spectrum don’t even comprehend what the other guy is doing… To me that either drives people out of the game altogether or it leads to undesirable behaviors. Like rampant quitting.
I guess all of this is a fancy way of saying that I think they need to build a game with a narrower skill gap, or if not then they need to think very hard about how to make the game a less hostile place for average to below-average players. Who still make up a big part of the populatoin and who pay their money same as everyone else. Obviously this is exactly what ranks and matchmaking are supposed to do, but I think they fail miserably. They’d fail less miserably if the game had a narrower skill gap. That isn’t the only solution, but it’s the one I’d pick.
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> > 2533274873843883;41:
> > all that has to happen is for a new player to run across one match against players who are above his skill level and suddenly CoD looks pretty good. Halo looks like (if he’s easily frustrated) it’s filled with cheaters, or looks like (if he’s not easily frustrated) that it’s still more trouble than it could ever possibly be worth.
> >
> > Not everyone thinks spending an afternoon being wrecked by a combination of low population and no-life sweats is the definition of gaming fun, and at some point 343 will need to wake up to that reality.
> >
> > And it’s an especially egregious example because it’s something that doesn’t need to exist
>
> If a new player is thinking about quitting after they have their first bad match, they should probably reevaluate why they’re even playing video games. To go off your second point, realistically, how many games is someone gonna have in an afternoon where they’re getting spawn killed all the time? Sure, it’s gonna happen, but I think overall they’re gonna have a somewhat normal experience especially when there’s several playlists to choose from which aren’t all gonna be filled with sweats.
>
> I don’t think any game dev is thinking their game is gonna tank while they’re making it. The normal thing to do would be to make spawns based on an evenly matched game and then add a few emergency spawns. There’s only so much they can add before it starts to negatively impact the game like people spawning behind you for example. The matchmaker also has to do its job as well to make the best possible matches.
>
> For your last point, they can minimize the impact of spawn killing, but I highly doubt they’re ever gonna get rid of it. It’s just the nature of the beast with a game like this and fixed spawn points. Even if they somehow did do it, people are always gonna find a way to take advantage of the system.
100% agree with everything you just said. The one thing that should be taken out of this whole thing is this one line: "people are always gonna find a way to take advantage of the system." It’ll always, always, always, ALWAYS be something that people will look to take advantage of
I would say this is more of an issue with the design of the map than anything else. If it’s easy to corner the opposing team and force them to spawn where you can easily pick them off, then it’s probably because the map allows for that easier than others. That said, using the map to your advantage isn’t cheating.
It’s like in WZA when I would hide in the base I was defending with Camo/Prophets Bane. Players on the other team said I was cheating because they weren’t able to cap the base, but I was simply defending it in the most efficient way according to the rules of the game. It didn’t matter if I ended the match with 0 kills, I still won.
I mean, I’m guilty of this but that’s because I’ve spent a significant amount of time either getting spawn trapped or learning how the spawns work. Is it cheating? Not at all.
If that were the case, would that mean that every pro player ever has been cheating? Of course not. It’s like button combos in Halo 2. Your enemy can pull it off but you can’t, that’s called a skill gap is it not? So it’s similar with a spawn trapping in Halo games.
As for preemptively aiming at a spawn point, that’s common practice. In fact, take notice of how many times you do it in a match, hell I’ll even do it for you, I think you’ll find that you do it automatically. That’s because you want to know where the enemies are, so you look at all possible locations an enemy will spawn and find the route they took to get away from it. On maps like Regret, Truth, and Coliseum, this is really easy as they all spawn in some pretty predictable locations, but some of the asymmetric maps like Plaza, The Rig, Molten, etc. are much harder to do this on because walls are everywhere.
Believe what you will but it’s simply not cheating, just a skill gap.
If a player is being spawn killed it’s their own fault for dying and not recognizing the enemy team’s positioning around the map.
A way to solve it is add more random spawn points and maybe make the player invulnerable for a short time after spawning. That’s just my opinion on it I will say spawn killing I don’t see as much as I did in Reach. It was bad in Reach especially Invasion and if the person you were spawning on quit you had a rough time. I see a problem with the stats really I know people want to keep track how well they’re doing. That also makes people want to boost their stats that’s why people betray for vehicles and power weapons and spawn kill. It has gotten better so we’re moving in a good direction but you’re always going to have untalented people looking 4 kills to boost their stats. I remember some bad games in Invasion and Grifball in Reach doesn’t take skill to spawn trap someone just takes experience in doing it.
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> I just can’t get behind this logic. Disliking it? Sure. Calling it cheating? By this logic, you’re cheating on your wife if you look/glance at the pictures of models in the bra section of a store.
hahaha… You must know my X-wife.
Some of these spawns are too predictable. Watching the FFA at MLG New Orleans, players would sit at Carbine 2 with the scoreboard pulled up so they could see when someone was about to spawn. When they saw that person spawn, they would just turn the corner and look into one of the bubbles and ambush the other player. I think that is when the spawn system needs to be tweaked a bit.
Some maps the spawns are fine, but some are weighted too heavily (bubbles on Truth are probably the worst offenders).
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> Some of these spawns are too predictable. Watching the FFA at MLG New Orleans, players would sit at Carbine 2 with the scoreboard pulled up so they could see when someone was about to spawn. When they saw that person spawn, they would just turn the corner and look into one of the bubbles and ambush the other player. I think that is when the spawn system needs to be tweaked a bit.
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> Some maps the spawns are fine, but some are weighted too heavily (bubbles on Truth are probably the worst offenders).
You can easily manipulate spawns on your own. These players have played enough Halo to know the spawns on the map. Spawns are weighted by how safe they are, as such, they are also much harder to get out of, which is why good players take advantage of it.
The bubbles on Truth, for example, can be opened by taking up the bases, and the Pink Tower side of the map.