Is PREEMPTIVE SPAWN TARGEING- cheating?

Games Other Halo
26

This is like asking if it’s cheating to be good at the game, LOL
Knowing the spawns is half the game

What’s next, “are 5-shot perfects cheating?”
– But of course I’m being facetious, I understand the distinction you’re drawing…

As to the more specific question of “exact placements”…
Well that’s why Halo 5 is so much more room-oriented than previous ones, in order to prevent sight-lines and let people spawn in peace – 343 has talked about this some time ago.

But keep in mind that, even though they specifically designed the game to prevent it, it’s still possible – so what does that tell you?

It tells you that it’s just an inevitable part of the game & therefore would be entirely illogical for the player to not take advantage of.
And it also tells you that these times are very situational and require a lot of experience to get right.
Furthermore, it tells you that a player who gets caught in this situation had to do something very wrong in order to allow it to happen.
Essentially, a good player gets rewarded for making a high-level play & the person who not-only-died-but-also-gave-up-map-control risks a double death.

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> > > No, it does not take skill to sit on one end of a small map and sit there with your scope knowing where they are going to spawn. That’s the difference between shooting an opponent, and shooting a paper target. It is not skill, it just takes learned knowledge of the map to know where the few spawn points are. Its not technically cheating because the game allows it. Its a part of the game that IMO needs to be fixed.
> >
> > Have you…ever…played or watched, a serious or competitive match in Halo before? It sounds like you haven’t. Let me tell you, it’s tons of fun.
>
> If that’s supposed to matter, then finish your comment, and explain why. Otherwise you just sound like you are trying to one up me for some random reason.

It only seems that way to you because you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.
It’s not a “random one up,” it’s just painfully obvious.

You going on about how little skill it takes is like a fan standing in the crowds at a basketball game, saying “why do you get 3 points just for shooting from further away? It’s easy and takes no skill!”
Ok, sure most people can hit a 3-pointer SOMETIMES… but you will NOT be doing that with a 7-foot monster standing in your way.

That’s exactly the distinction here: you would never in a million years be able to do that against a top team because good players don’t give you the opportunity.
Conversely, a good player would do it to you every time because they create opportunities that you never even knew exist, by using a vast array of knowledge & skills
– knowing every spawn point, every jump, every route that players take, every hiding spot, every nade trick, every powerup timer
– it’s the full culmination of all factors and spawn killing is just 1 small piece of that, but in order to even get there in the first place, there are another 1500 hurdles you must first get past.

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<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not flame or attack other members.</mark>
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

> 2533274834881503;26:
> This is like asking if it’s cheating to be good at the game, LOL
> Knowing the spawns is half the game
>
> What’s next, “are 5-shot perfects cheating?”
> – But of course I’m being facetious, I understand the distinction you’re drawing…
>
> As to the more specific question of “exact placements”…
> Well that’s why Halo 5 is so much more room-oriented than previous ones, in order to prevent sight-lines and let people spawn in peace – 343 has talked about this some time ago.
>
> But keep in mind that, even though they specifically designed the game to prevent it, it’s still possible – so what does that tell you?
>
> It tells you that it’s just an inevitable part of the game & therefore would be entirely illogical for the player to not take advantage of.
> And it also tells you that these times are very situational and require a lot of experience to get right.
> Furthermore, it tells you that a player who gets caught in this situation had to do something very wrong in order to allow it to happen.
> Essentially, a good player gets rewarded for making a high-level play & the person who not-only-died-but-also-gave-up-map-control risks a double death.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274823705367;24:
> > > 2533274815696922;23:
> > > > 2533274823705367;3:
> > > > No, it does not take skill to sit on one end of a small map and sit there with your scope knowing where they are going to spawn. That’s the difference between shooting an opponent, and shooting a paper target. It is not skill, it just takes learned knowledge of the map to know where the few spawn points are. Its not technically cheating because the game allows it. Its a part of the game that IMO needs to be fixed.
> > >
> > > Have you…ever…played or watched, a serious or competitive match in Halo before? It sounds like you haven’t. Let me tell you, it’s tons of fun.
> >
> > If that’s supposed to matter, then finish your comment, and explain why. Otherwise you just sound like you are trying to one up me for some random reason.
>
> It only seems that way to you because you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.
> It’s not a “random one up,” it’s just painfully obvious.
>
> You going on about how little skill it takes is like a fan standing in the crowds at a basketball game, saying “why do you get 3 points just for shooting from further away? It’s easy and takes no skill!”
> Ok, sure most people can hit a 3-pointer SOMETIMES… but you will NOT be doing that with a 7-foot monster standing in your way.
>
> That’s exactly the distinction here: you would never in a million years be able to do that against a top team because good players don’t give you the opportunity.
> Conversely, a good player would do it to you every time because they create opportunities that you never even knew exist, by using a vast array of knowledge & skills
> – knowing every spawn point, every jump, every route that players take, every hiding spot, every nade trick, every powerup timer
> – it’s the full culmination of all factors and spawn killing is just 1 small piece of that, but in order to even get there in the first place, there are another 1500 hurdles you must first get past.

Get over yourself, with your trash response. You completely lack any bit of class there and again went straight to a one-up excuse, without even trying to answer or have a meaningful conversation. You still can’t even give a reason why, other than to keep blaming it on the rest of the team. If you actually had a good point to make you would stick with the truth, give an honest answer; and not say “that would never happen in a million years” as the basis to your comment. Out of your list there, how many are actually relevant to this thread or what am I asking? The ONLY ONE is knowing the spawn point, and again that’s not even factoring in the entire question. You made ZERO effort to have a relevant comment in this thread, and did nothing but show your a… butt…

P.S. Your simile is completely inaccurate, because that’s the one thing everyone has in common going into the game. Nobody goes in with extra strength, or is quicker… THE ONLY difference in players IS their skill. So again; you tried so hard to just make some rude comment, you didn’t even realize your analogy is not relevant to the rest of your comment.

28

The question you should be asking I think is “Should maps be designed to allow for Pre-spawn camping?” The answer to that is “no”

Although it takes time and practice to lock down spawns, It can create a negative experience to the camped players.

Is it cheating to know the spawn system so well that one has the ability to lock down a spawn? Absolutely not. The onus is on the map designers to design maps that make this difficult. I don’t want to turn this into a sprint/anti-sprint post, but since map traversal is so quick in H5, it’s much easier to lock down spawns than in previous halos.

TLDR - if the map is designed properly, the scenario you describe shouldn’t happen. But even if it does, it’s not cheating and it’s up to the player to make sure to not get caught in known spawn traps.

edit spelling

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[deleted]

30

So what do you tell someone who can’t move two feet past spawn? “Get good” lol

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<mark>Do not post nonconstructive spam.</mark>

Money makes the world go round. 343 knows this… I hope. You demoralize your fan base with lets be honest here… dirty tactics like spawn killing. Demoralized kids don’t buy the next Halo. So preach all you want about that being a skill, while the majority of whats left of Halo fans continue to leave. Lol -Yoinked!- and whined to get rid of spartan charge and they defend spawn killing LOL SMH

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What am I even reading? Demoralized kids don’t buy the next Halo because of spawn killing. Seriously?..

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> What am I even reading? Demoralized kids don’t buy the next Halo because of spawn killing. Seriously?..

Then no one would have bought Halo 2 after CE lol.

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<mark>Do not post inappropriate comments.</mark>

I didn’t have an issue with random people from around the world spawn killing me…maybe you did…idk…lol. The friends I played with didn’t believe in cheap kills like that. They were more in your face wanting you to see it coming and still die. But to the point of demoralized kids not buying the next Halo, yes I believe Halo is a dying ship. Why can’t we see player population, why sometimes does it take 20 min to find Spartans? I’m not saying I know why, but I do know young folk round here live in the gimmie gimmie gimmie now now now world. They put the game away if they don’t immediately decimate all. Probably all the chemicals in the food and water now thats giving them a.d.d.

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LOL THESE GUYS. I’M OUT. NAMASTE :v:

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> 2533274823705367;3:
> > 2533274796457055;2:
> > It takes skill to control the map’s spawns and force the enemy team to spawn in known location. This is not cheating, no, and in fact it takes quite a lot of skill.
>
> No, it does not take skill to sit on one end of a small map and sit there with your scope knowing where they are going to spawn. That’s the difference between shooting an opponent, and shooting a paper target. It is not skill, it just takes learned knowledge of the map to know where the few spawn points are. Its not technically cheating because the game allows it. Its a part of the game that IMO needs to be fixed.

You need a team of skilled players that are skilled enough to hold these positions to force a spawn. No one can simply camp on a known point solo and cash in sort of speak. It is heavily coordinated which is why I agree with Snicker. The act of shooting or exploiting the spawn doesn’t take much skill but the team effort it took to create that opportunity takes a good amount of skill, coordination, and map knowledge.

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> 2533274796457055;2:
> It takes skill to control the map’s spawns and force the enemy team to spawn in known location. This is not cheating, no, and in fact it takes quite a lot of skill.

Not to mention its been around since the start of everything, Halo CE. It’s not considered cheating but people on the receiving end of spawn killing/force spawning will often think of it as cheating. It’s quite funny, actually.

38

Infection, cough “station Zulu” cough “ drillsite”

39

ive had several instances where i don’t even spawn(die before my hud even shows) it can be extremely painful at those times for the whole match. maybe if in those instances the spawns revert to FFA Spawns to change up the spawn locations to trick up the team would be good. but would be tricky to configure.

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> 2533274796457055;33:
> > 2727626560040591;32:
> > > 2535447050823882;31:
> > >
> >
> > What am I even reading? Demoralized kids don’t buy the next Halo because of spawn killing. Seriously?..
>
> Then no one would have bought Halo 2 after CE lol.

CE spawning killing is bad have to admit for xbox live…, but your forgetting something. Xbox live didn’t exist. pretty much 80 to 90 percent of the halo CE population didn’t have 16 player lan matches. we only got to 8 player lan matches with 3 xboxs when i was young. i don’t think bungie was really expecting it. Xbox live made it extremely possible to learn spawn locations/strategies. plus the internet is a massive influence on strategies now then back then. These days though this kind of thing is extremely impressionable on a younger/teen audience. if halo 6 can be extremely learnt easy for spawns as halo 5 it could be a bad problem.

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> 2727626560040591;32:
> > 2535447050823882;31:
> >
>
> What am I even reading? Demoralized kids don’t buy the next Halo because of spawn killing. Seriously?..

I don’t know why I always seem to pick on you, but…

Is spawn killing the single feature that will stop some kid from buying the next Halo? Probably not. Is spawn killing something you can add to a lengthy list of game features and characteristics that make Halo a relatively hostile environment for any player, let alone new players? I think so. I think what Mr. Shark is saying is that at some point, as the developer favors ever-wider skill gaps, ever-higher skill floors, an ever-more cut throat game in general, then all they’ve really done is create a space where all that has to happen is for a new player to run across one match against players who are above his skill level and suddenly CoD looks pretty good. Halo looks like (if he’s easily frustrated) it’s filled with cheaters, or looks like (if he’s not easily frustrated) that it’s still more trouble than it could ever possibly be worth. And these days there are too many other options for that gamer. Not everyone thinks spending an afternoon being wrecked by a combination of low population and no-life sweats is the definition of gaming fun, and at some point 343 will need to wake up to that reality. Maybe Halo 4 was too casual and too easy, but Halo 5 is definitely too difficult and too hostile and spawn killing is just one example of that. And it’s an especially egregious example because it’s something that doesn’t need to exist - the fact that it takes skill to execute is immaterial. It takes skill to rob a bank but that doesn’t make bank robbery desirable.

So yeah, I think he may actually be right.

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> 2533274873843883;41:
> all that has to happen is for a new player to run across one match against players who are above his skill level and suddenly CoD looks pretty good. Halo looks like (if he’s easily frustrated) it’s filled with cheaters, or looks like (if he’s not easily frustrated) that it’s still more trouble than it could ever possibly be worth.
>
> Not everyone thinks spending an afternoon being wrecked by a combination of low population and no-life sweats is the definition of gaming fun, and at some point 343 will need to wake up to that reality.
>
> And it’s an especially egregious example because it’s something that doesn’t need to exist

If a new player is thinking about quitting after they have their first bad match, they should probably reevaluate why they’re even playing video games. To go off your second point, realistically, how many games is someone gonna have in an afternoon where they’re getting spawn killed all the time? Sure, it’s gonna happen, but I think overall they’re gonna have a somewhat normal experience especially when there’s several playlists to choose from which aren’t all gonna be filled with sweats.

I don’t think any game dev is thinking their game is gonna tank while they’re making it. The normal thing to do would be to make spawns based on an evenly matched game and then add a few emergency spawns. There’s only so much they can add before it starts to negatively impact the game like people spawning behind you for example. The matchmaker also has to do its job as well to make the best possible matches.

For your last point, they can minimize the impact of spawn killing, but I highly doubt they’re ever gonna get rid of it. It’s just the nature of the beast with a game like this and fixed spawn points. Even if they somehow did do it, people are always gonna find a way to take advantage of the system.

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> 2727626560040591;42:
> > 2533274873843883;41:
> >
>
> If a new player is thinking about quitting after they have their first bad match, they should probably reevaluate why they’re even playing video games. To go off your second point, realistically, how many games is someone gonna have in an afternoon where they’re getting spawn killed all the time? Sure, it’s gonna happen, but I think overall they’re gonna have a somewhat normal experience especially when there’s several playlists to choose from which aren’t all gonna be filled with sweats.
>
> I don’t think any game dev is thinking their game is gonna tank while they’re making it. The normal thing to do would be to make spawns based on an evenly matched game and then add a few emergency spawns. There’s only so much they can add before it starts to negatively impact the game like people spawning behind you for example. The matchmaker also has to do its job as well to make the best possible matches.
>
> For your last point, they can minimize the impact of spawn killing, but I highly doubt they’re ever gonna get rid of it. It’s just the nature of the beast with a game like this and fixed spawn points. Even if they somehow did do it, people are always gonna find a way to take advantage of the system.

Nothing here I disagree with. In and of itself, spawn camping is not a horrendous problem for the average player. But it is part of what I see as a larger pattern behind a game that isn’t as welcoming to new players as it could be, a game I’d say that isn’t very friendly to anybody below maybe mid platinum. I see a lot of barriers to entry, I see a high skill floor, a wide skill gap, and a game that just generally wants to make hyper-competitive players feel like it was worth their trouble to show up.

On the subject of devs not thinking their game is gonna tank while they’re making it: I’m not saying that you build a game with failure in mind. I’m saying that they should be building games in the certainty that they will spend most of their lifespans with a low population. That’s just simple truth. It doesn’t mean a game is unsuccessful or a failure - it means that Halo 3 is still supported on xbox live at the ripe old age of what now? Ten or Eleven? I think longevity and lifespan are better served by a game that’s built to withstand changing populations than they are by building an incredibly difficult game with a skill gap so wide that players from opposite ends of the spectrum don’t even comprehend what the other guy is doing… To me that either drives people out of the game altogether or it leads to undesirable behaviors. Like rampant quitting.

I guess all of this is a fancy way of saying that I think they need to build a game with a narrower skill gap, or if not then they need to think very hard about how to make the game a less hostile place for average to below-average players. Who still make up a big part of the populatoin and who pay their money same as everyone else. Obviously this is exactly what ranks and matchmaking are supposed to do, but I think they fail miserably. They’d fail less miserably if the game had a narrower skill gap. That isn’t the only solution, but it’s the one I’d pick.

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> 2727626560040591;42:
> > 2533274873843883;41:
> > all that has to happen is for a new player to run across one match against players who are above his skill level and suddenly CoD looks pretty good. Halo looks like (if he’s easily frustrated) it’s filled with cheaters, or looks like (if he’s not easily frustrated) that it’s still more trouble than it could ever possibly be worth.
> >
> > Not everyone thinks spending an afternoon being wrecked by a combination of low population and no-life sweats is the definition of gaming fun, and at some point 343 will need to wake up to that reality.
> >
> > And it’s an especially egregious example because it’s something that doesn’t need to exist
>
> If a new player is thinking about quitting after they have their first bad match, they should probably reevaluate why they’re even playing video games. To go off your second point, realistically, how many games is someone gonna have in an afternoon where they’re getting spawn killed all the time? Sure, it’s gonna happen, but I think overall they’re gonna have a somewhat normal experience especially when there’s several playlists to choose from which aren’t all gonna be filled with sweats.
>
> I don’t think any game dev is thinking their game is gonna tank while they’re making it. The normal thing to do would be to make spawns based on an evenly matched game and then add a few emergency spawns. There’s only so much they can add before it starts to negatively impact the game like people spawning behind you for example. The matchmaker also has to do its job as well to make the best possible matches.
>
> For your last point, they can minimize the impact of spawn killing, but I highly doubt they’re ever gonna get rid of it. It’s just the nature of the beast with a game like this and fixed spawn points. Even if they somehow did do it, people are always gonna find a way to take advantage of the system.

100% agree with everything you just said. The one thing that should be taken out of this whole thing is this one line: "people are always gonna find a way to take advantage of the system." It’ll always, always, always, ALWAYS be something that people will look to take advantage of

45

I would say this is more of an issue with the design of the map than anything else. If it’s easy to corner the opposing team and force them to spawn where you can easily pick them off, then it’s probably because the map allows for that easier than others. That said, using the map to your advantage isn’t cheating.

It’s like in WZA when I would hide in the base I was defending with Camo/Prophets Bane. Players on the other team said I was cheating because they weren’t able to cap the base, but I was simply defending it in the most efficient way according to the rules of the game. It didn’t matter if I ended the match with 0 kills, I still won.