Is PREEMPTIVE SPAWN TARGEING- cheating?

Games Other Halo
1

Not all, but several of the maps have a very few dedicated spawn points. For the sake of this post, I am not talking about people hiding. Lets say completely actively attacking, but not having trouble “getting into the fight”. I am referring to PREEMPTIVE SPAWN TARGETING ONLY… I am talking about targeting a spawn point before a player is their. There are some maps where snipers can cover the spawn points. I have played some maps where some people are throwing grenades randomly from long distances at one of a few spawn points before any players shows up, hoping that they can time the grenades as someone spawns. There may be other ways to do this, but I am ONLY referring to targeting a specific location, because you EXPECT a player to be there. I see this completely as cheating. They are not targeting or playing against the other players, they are playing against the ‘limits of the game’. Personally you should have 2-3 seconds to move when you spawn, or removed if you try to attack, (as I have seen in other games). I’m not saying you shouldn’t attack the entire map. I’m saying I think its cheating to PRE-TARGET the spawn point, because you know its the spawn point. Its even worse if someone quits causing a disadvantage and you are still trying.

I searched “spawn killing” and found many posts referring to “map control”. Map control is completely different. Map control means you can cover the majority of the map making it difficult or near impossible to gain a good position, and keeping your enemy at a disadvantage.

PREEMPTIVE Spawn killing DOES NOT TAKE SKILL. It does not take any special talent, and personally its only technically a strategy, because they need to fix the game to solve this problem … Spawn killing requires a knowledge of THE LIMITS OF THE GAME. I consider it cheating because, PREEMPTIVE targeting means you are playing against the map, and not playing against the other players.

Feel free to disagree, I know some will. I’m just trying to make my point about a problem I SEE, and have a conversation about it.

2

It takes skill to control the map’s spawns and force the enemy team to spawn in known location. This is not cheating, no, and in fact it takes quite a lot of skill.

3

> 2533274796457055;2:
> It takes skill to control the map’s spawns and force the enemy team to spawn in known location. This is not cheating, no, and in fact it takes quite a lot of skill.

No, it does not take skill to sit on one end of a small map and sit there with your scope knowing where they are going to spawn. That’s the difference between shooting an opponent, and shooting a paper target. It is not skill, it just takes learned knowledge of the map to know where the few spawn points are. Its not technically cheating because the game allows it. Its a part of the game that IMO needs to be fixed.

4

“Learned knowledge of a map” = skill.

Honest question - have you ever played Halo CE or Halo 2?

5

You are right when you say that targeting a possible spawn isn’t necessarily map control. They are two different things. They are, however, correlated. Generally someone/a team with map control will be more likely to target down spawns.

Now, is it cheating? No. Cheating in this context is defined as “acting unfairly.” All players on the map have the ability to look at potential spawns. If all players can innately do it and the developers intended for it to be this way, it isn’t cheating.

What you are attempting to argue is that simply looking somewhere is considered cheating. This is ridiculous. What if a player accidentally looks at a spawn? Are they now a cheater?

It takes a large amount of map and spawn knowledge to be able to pull shots like this off and they are quite rare. I’ve been single digit Champion in multiple playlists and I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve been sniped immediately off spawn, and most of those were probably not even intentional.

6

Do you think it’s cheating in any Halo game if someone camps on top of a power weapon spawn point before the weapon spawns in order to get the weapon for themself?

7

> 2533274812650916;5:
> You are right when you say that targeting a possible spawn isn’t necessarily map control. They are two different things. They are, however, correlated. Generally someone/a team with map control will be more likely to target down spawns.
>
> Now, is it cheating? No. Cheating in this context is defined as “acting unfairly.” All players on the map have the ability to look at potential spawns. If all players can innately do it and the developers intended for it to be this way, it isn’t cheating.
>
> What you are attempting to argue is that simply looking somewhere is considered cheating. This is ridiculous. What if a player accidentally looks at a spawn? Are they now a cheater?
>
> It takes a large amount of map and spawn knowledge to be able to pull shots like this off and they are quite rare. I’ve been single digit Champion in multiple playlists and I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve been sniped immediately off spawn, and most of those were probably not even intentional.

They CAN go hand and hand, but neither one is required to have the other. You can’t look at other spawns before you spawn. Even if you know you are you going to be sniper killed at spawn, you still have to orient yourself. No, I am not saying looking somewhere, I am saying preparing yourself by targeting on that spawn point. Not just sniping either. I am not saying it happens often, very rare, but IMO its completely wrong, (and here to hear the other side). I have seen on Mercy where people were in the center, and guessing which stairwell they would launch two grenades to try to get a spawn kill right after someone got a kill. I don’t know the names of the maps well enough, but there is one where you have to jump over to get the invis, there is a sniper at the bottom of the stairs, where you can snipe the spawn point from (that’s probably the worst map I can think of), I Think its pegasus

Its really not that hard to figure out where you will spawn after a game or two. Not sure why people keep saying that’s so difficult to figure out. It is definitely rare, most of the time it only happens after a team loses a member, making it even worse. Is that the difference here? I just don’t think things are perfect the way they are. It sounds like those who think its fine, must think the developers did everything perfect right out of the gate, (even though its changed every time), and changed between. I can only THINK that its not the intention, and people need to bring up the problems they feel they are having, in order for them to change.

> 2727626560040591;6:
> Do you think it’s cheating in any Halo game if someone camps on top of a power weapon spawn point before the weapon spawns in order to get the weapon for themself?

I wouldn’t call it cheating. Its like people who camp to hide and wait for invisible. I personally find it cheap, because they are technically being inactive, and not helping their team in order to better themselves. It might work out better in the long run to get more kills, but I wouldn’t call it cheating. If it was up to me, you would start losing health if you stopped moving for long enough.

8

I don’t think the game is perfect. And even though it doesn’t take long to figure out the general location and flow of spawns, it doesn’t mean you are going to be able to get spawn sniping down to a science like you can in Call of Duty games. I’m only arguing that it doesn’t meet the definition of cheating and even if you don’t want to think so, it does take an immense amount of skill and knowledge to be able to pull off intentionally.

I am not saying you should like it. But I am saying that it is not cheating. There is no way to prevent this aside from giving people brief invulnerability on spawn and that is not good for any competitive FPS game.

9

> 2533274823705367;7:
> I wouldn’t call it cheating. Its like people who camp to hide and wait for invisible. I personally find it cheap, because they are technically being inactive, and not helping their team in order to better themselves. It might work out better in the long run to get more kills, but I wouldn’t call it cheating. If it was up to me, you would start losing health if you stopped moving for long enough.
>
> They CAN go hand and hand, but neither one is required to have the other. You can’t look at other spawns before you spawn.

Okay, so why would your preemptive spawn killing be cheating then if it’s pretty much the same scenario you described except it’s a weapon instead of a Spartan? The weapon has a limited/fixed spawn point, you can’t choose where it spawns, the player knows it’s going to spawn there, the person is camping on it instead of helping their team, in a lot of instances you need map control in order to get it (a predictable spawn pt) and the chances for anyone else getting it are very limited (you getting away without dying).

It doesn’t seem like you’re taking into account that it’s a team game. One reason why you’re getting pinned down or spawn camped which you might know already is because you and your team are putting yourselves in that scenario. If you want favorable spawns, then your team needs to be controlling the map which in turn will put the other team in the position that you’re describing.

10

<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not post spam.</mark>
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

Yes

11

I think there are a few instances where the spawn system could be tweaked.

One that comes to mind is the bunker spawn on The Rig. If an enemy is in tower 2, they can be looking directly towards the spawn point, but since the line of sight is technically blocked by the stairs, players can still spawn about 6 feet from an instant headshot. I don’t think that’s a fair spawn as I don’t associate Halo with spawn-killing, that’s for CoD kids with chopper gunners.

It’s not cheating in my mind, but I’d like to see some spawning changes as some Halo 5 maps have extremely predictable spawning (e.g. Truth, The Rig).

12

It isn’t cheating. It’s bad map making. The whole point of putting more than one spawn point on a map is to get away from predictability and to give the recently deceased a fighting chance to get back in the game. So if I found a forged map where this was easy (or relatively easy) to do then I’d call it bad forging. If the developer did it (and on some maps they have) then I’m not sure whether it’s an oversight or an attempt to make spawn speculation a feature of the game. If the second thing is really what they’re trying to do then shame on them. It becomes a perfect example of a kill accelerator for the more skillful players - people who have, by definition, already proved that they don’t need a leg up on their less-skilled or less-experienced enemies.

> 2727626560040591;6:
> Do you think it’s cheating in any Halo game if someone camps on top of a power weapon spawn point before the weapon spawns in order to get the weapon for themself?

Luke, I don’t want to fly in the face of almost two decades of Halo precedent but what you’re describing is, to my way of thinking, one of the fundamental flaws in the multiplayer formula. Recon says power weapons should always be fewer in number than they are, they should never spawn in the same place twice, and they should never spawn on a fixed timer. It’s the kind of thing, along with too few spawn points, that turn the game into a rigid and predictable pattern of sameness. It kinda seems to me like we’re saying that the ability to tell time makes one a skillful player. I say that the battlefield should be chaotic and that the winner should be the player who most successfully wrests order from the chaos, not the player who successfully executes a skill he learned in first grade.

13

> 2727626560040591;9:
> > 2533274823705367;7:
> > I wouldn’t call it cheating. Its like people who camp to hide and wait for invisible. I personally find it cheap, because they are technically being inactive, and not helping their team in order to better themselves. It might work out better in the long run to get more kills, but I wouldn’t call it cheating. If it was up to me, you would start losing health if you stopped moving for long enough.
> >
> > They CAN go hand and hand, but neither one is required to have the other. You can’t look at other spawns before you spawn.
>
> Okay, so why would your preemptive spawn killing be cheating then if it’s pretty much the same scenario you described except it’s a weapon instead of a Spartan? The weapon has a limited/fixed spawn point, you can’t choose where it spawns, the player knows it’s going to spawn there, the person is camping on it instead of helping their team, in a lot of instances you need map control in order to get it (a predictable spawn pt) and the chances for anyone else getting it are very limited (you getting away without dying).
>
> It doesn’t seem like you’re taking into account that it’s a team game. One reason why you’re getting pinned down or spawn camped which you might know already is because you and your team are putting yourselves in that scenario. If you want favorable spawns, then your team needs to be controlling the map which in turn will put the other team in the position that you’re describing.

Its NOT the same thing at all. There is a difference between getting your preferred weapon to better your situation, and getting a kill where someone doesn’t even have a chance. Even if someone knows they are going to be spawn killed, upon spawning you still have to orient yourself. You still have to turn towards them, then aim. (I see it as) Its a problem with the game if you can get killed before you can even move.

You can’t blame this on the rest of the team, either team. Again, this is not map control, they CAN go hand-in-hand, but one is not dependent on the other. You can map control 2/3rds of a map, and spawn kill at the other point. That doesn’t mean your team is not trying. If every other spawn is just getting spawn killed how do you expect to have someone get back in the game? You’re saying its someone’s fault for getting spawn killed because the rest of their team can’t take over the map when they are down and disadvantaged.

14

I just can’t get behind this logic. Disliking it? Sure. Calling it cheating? By this logic, you’re cheating on your wife if you look/glance at the pictures of models in the bra section of a store.

15

> 2533274812650916;14:
> I just can’t get behind this logic. Disliking it? Sure. Calling it cheating? By this logic, you’re cheating on your wife if you look/glance at the pictures of models in the bra section of a store.

Some people would tell you that is. Marriage is you declaring your love for the other person. It depends on what your intentions are. If you are looking at another woman and lusting after her, I would call that cheating. It doesn’t take penetration to be cheating. You cheat with your heart long before you cheat physically.

If you want to compare it to anything, think of it more like… “insider trading”.

16

Nah, it’s not cheating. It’s cheap for sure, but definitely not cheating. Spawn killing is just more painful because you usually expect to have at least a couple of seconds to orient yourself before being shot at. But with the speed at which Spartans can move around the maps and the maps’ (Arena ones, specifically) relatively small sizes (to me), it just magnifies the frustration of being spawn killed tenfold.

On the other hand, it’s very satisfying to have the other team locked down in a spot.

17

> 2533274823705367;13:
> If every other spawn is just getting spawn killed how do you expect to have someone get back in the game? You’re saying its someone’s fault for getting spawn killed because the rest of their team can’t take over the map when they are down and disadvantaged.

It’s the matchmaker’s fault when the skill is uneven, but in an evenly matched game, it is your team’s fault for getting yourselves in that position like all four of you losing your battles and dying at the same time instead of the last person disengaging to stay alive instead. It’s unlikely that it will stay that way for the entire game unless the team are -Yoinks!-, so you can either try to do something off the spawn like holding down the jump button or pressing forward on the stick so you move right when you spawn, hope that something happens which ends it so you can fight back or you can just give up and quit. Being able to hold down all the spawns is basically like getting a checkmate.

You also referred to being able to spawn camp without map control by just camping or nading a spawn point. If that’s the case, then it’s your team’s fault again because they’re not killing the guy camping the spawn point. If their team doesn’t have full map control, then your team is gonna spawn in a different spot where it’s not controlled.

343 could help with this by adding better or more spawns, but there’s only so much they can add before it starts to hinder the game negatively like spawning behind people or in an undeserving advantageous position for example.

18

> 2727626560040591;17:
> > 2533274823705367;13:
> > If every other spawn is just getting spawn killed how do you expect to have someone get back in the game? You’re saying its someone’s fault for getting spawn killed because the rest of their team can’t take over the map when they are down and disadvantaged.
>
> It’s the matchmaker’s fault when the skill is uneven, but in an evenly matched game, it is your team’s fault for getting yourselves in that position like all four of you losing your battles and dying at the same time instead of the last person disengaging to stay alive instead. It’s unlikely that it will stay that way for the entire game unless the team are -Yoinks!-, so you can either try to do something off the spawn like holding down the jump button or pressing forward on the stick so you move right when you spawn, hope that something happens which ends it so you can fight back or you can just give up and quit. Being able to hold down all the spawns is basically like getting a checkmate.
>
> You also referred to being able to spawn camp without map control by just camping or nading a spawn point. If that’s the case, then it’s your team’s fault again because they’re not killing the guy camping the spawn point. If their team doesn’t have full map control, then your team is gonna spawn in a different spot where it’s not controlled.
>
> 343 could help with this by adding better or more spawns, but there’s only so much they can add before it starts to hinder the game negatively like spawning behind people or in an undeserving advantageous position for example.

If you think being able to spawn in a position where you are not being held down is an unfair advantage, and going to keep blaming someone’s team when they are getting spawn killed, then we can end this conversation now. Even your answer is lopsided. If a team actually had “skill” in holding a map, then they could do it in more than one way. They could regain control, no matter the situation. If not, then its then its the map that is giving them the advantage, (not their “skill”) and they would only be camping to hold it.

19

Lots of good points being made but spawn killing is part of the game its not cheating

20

> 2535450897735746;19:
> Lots of good points being made but spawn killing is part of the game its not cheating

I’m not talking about whether or not the game allows it, but should it