The SPARTAN II program was an unconscionable program that destroyed the lives and families of roughly 70 children. Of these children, only 36 survived the augmentation process and went on to become some of the most effective soldiers of the galaxy. However, these soldiers have - at best - questionable humanity, and may be more akin to wind-up toy soldiers that do ONI’s bidding.
The Question
With the advent of the SPARTAN IV program, we now know that humanity has the capability of creating super soldiers in massive amounts without all the shadowy ethics. Is Dr. Halsy’s SPARTAN II Program justified anyway, or should she have waited until we had the capabilities to create ethical super soldiers?
Because if they hadn’t, the Covenant would have won and everyone would be dead. So they couldn’t be getting on any moral high horses and scape-goating her. On account of the deadage.
Also, the Spartan IVs are a bunch of amateurs compared to the IIs. Halsey knows it and I think Laskey knows it too.
Spartan IV are not at the same capacity and quality of Spartan II’s. If you watched ep 4 of SO its slightly talked about, specifically hinting Spartan II’s are much much better than IV’s for all the things they went through being taken as kids.
I say it is justified to meet the means of a failed project til a later date, the Orion project seems to be similar in idea of IV, but now only successful due research gathered from Spartan II and III projects.
Given those children would most likely be dead if they had been left alone because of the Covenant. Not to mention the entire humanity is facing extinction thing too. Her acts weren’t originally justified, but when the Covenant popped up, it was.
As Dr. Halsey said, They were efficient. Whether is was morally good or not. They got the job done. Based on the games, 1 man alone, John, The Masterchief, sierra-117, he got the job done. Efficiently. As for the spartans III,s (Reach) it showed they weren’t as efficient. It’s an up/down basis,
Had Halsey waited, humanity would have likely been wiped out (or at least greatly reduced) by the Covenant. This is not to say what she did was “good”, but rather, necessary. Justified? Perhaps her guilt is slightly offset by her success, but only slightly.
> The only right answer is Yes.
>
> Because if they hadn’t, the Covenant would have won and everyone would be dead. So they couldn’t be getting on any moral high horses and scape-goating her. On account of the deadage.
>
> Also, the Spartan IVs are a bunch of amateurs compared to the IIs. Halsey knows it and I think Laskey knows it too.
No, they never made them to fight the Covenant, it would be a different story if that was the case, they were made to stop rebels that were fighting for equality. That sounds real ethical.
The thing is that if they didn’t do what they did, they’d get wiped by the Covenant but then again, they didn’t make SIIs in order to fight the Covenant.
So it’s a case of “You shouldn’t do stuff like this but we’re glad you did it.”
> Given those children would most likely be dead if they had been left alone because of the Covenant. Not to mention the entire humanity is facing extinction thing too. Her acts weren’t originally justified, but when the Covenant popped up, it was.
Given the Spartan II project was brought up as a way to stop humanity starting civil war and wiping itself out within a certain time-frame, I’d say they’ve always been justified. They were created to be the last and ultimate line of defence. And they were.
It was in their genes, think of halsey as the Liberian who is giving her spartans the means to fight better and harder. Armor and A.I. constructs to be more precise. The spartans that were selected all had been screened for genetic markers, these markers were for rating those kids at how effective they will be for combat/logical thinking/strategy decisions.
The augmentation process has not been perfected so some problems did arise, assuming it was perfected they might not have had those anti-social behavior problems. They did show very high efficiency in high stressful combat situations when a normal marine might die.
Originally created to stop the insurrectionists, they have been a godsend to the UNSC. They do not only answer to the ONI spooks, but anyone who is higher than their ranks. Sometimes they have to listen to idiots who care only about killing the enemy and not about saving lives.
Edit Thinking more on it, the question should be: Who is in the right, the UNSC or the insurrectionists?
They did not want government to tell them how to be ruled in the outer worlds, when they went against the grain the UNSC was called in to kill them. The fighting began and thus you had your UNSC vs. Innies.
> > The only right answer is Yes.
> >
> > Because if they hadn’t, the Covenant would have won and everyone would be dead. So they couldn’t be getting on any moral high horses and scape-goating her. On account of the deadage.
> >
> > Also, the Spartan IVs are a bunch of amateurs compared to the IIs. Halsey knows it and I think Laskey knows it too.
>
> No, they never made them to fight the Covenant, it would be a different story if that was the case, they were made to stop rebels that were fighting for equality. That sounds real ethical.
Yes, they were made to stop rebels and to stop a civil war/mass rebellion that, with Haloverse Humanities technology level would have lead to total extinction.
That’s the lore reason. The Spartan IIs were ALWAYS about the sacrifice of the few for the good of the many.
Why the hell are people getting so high-horse about all this, ayway? ONI are the true jerkwads in all of this. Then and now.
(Not to mention this is all science fiction…)
> > The only right answer is Yes.
> >
> > Because if they hadn’t, the Covenant would have won and everyone would be dead. So they couldn’t be getting on any moral high horses and scape-goating her. On account of the deadage.
> >
> > Also, the Spartan IVs are a bunch of amateurs compared to the IIs. Halsey knows it and I think Laskey knows it too.
>
> No, they never made them to fight the Covenant, it would be a different story if that was the case, they were made to stop rebels that were fighting for equality. That sounds real ethical.
This. She did a really horrible thing that just happened to get ‘justified’ by everything that happened after.
It doesnt make what she did any more right really, it just adds more shades of gray to things.
Now the librarian thing sheds some different light on this, though its unsure if the covenant attacking humanity factored into her plans.
Ok short and simple.
It was an evil thing she did, but thank to her humanity survived an attack that should have wiped it out. Halsey should not be punished or awarded but instead only forgotten and left alone so she can keep working and advancing humanity. I think she at least deserves that.
> > > The only right answer is Yes.
> > >
> > > Because if they hadn’t, the Covenant would have won and everyone would be dead. So they couldn’t be getting on any moral high horses and scape-goating her. On account of the deadage.
> > >
> > > Also, the Spartan IVs are a bunch of amateurs compared to the IIs. Halsey knows it and I think Laskey knows it too.
> >
> > No, they never made them to fight the Covenant, it would be a different story if that was the case, they were made to stop rebels that were fighting for equality. That sounds real ethical.
>
> Yes, they were made to stop rebels and to stop a civil war/mass rebellion that, with Haloverse Humanities technology level would have lead to total extinction.
>
> That’s the lore reason. The Spartan IIs were ALWAYS about the sacrifice of the few for the good of the many.
> Why the hell are people getting so high-horse about all this, ayway? ONI are the true jerkwads in all of this. Then and now.
> (Not to mention this is all science fiction…)
They could always just give them the equality they wanted and should have had to begin with, but that would be too easy.
I think it’s also important to note that although SPARTAN IV’s aren’t as efficient as SPARTAN II’s, there are thousands of SPARTAN IV’s. There were only 36 of the originals. I think the quantity of SPARTAN IV’s outweighs the effectiveness of the SPARTAN II’s. Basically, had humanity waited longer for a more ethical solution, they would have had a fighting force just as effective as Dr. Halsy’s original 36.
> > Given those children would most likely be dead if they had been left alone because of the Covenant. Not to mention the entire humanity is facing extinction thing too. Her acts weren’t originally justified, but when the Covenant popped up, it was.
>
> Given the Spartan II project was brought up as a way to stop humanity starting civil war and wiping itself out within a certain time-frame, I’d say they’ve always been justified. They were created to be the last and ultimate line of defence. And they were.
> This. She did a really horrible thing that just happened to get ‘justified’ by everything that happened after.
>
> It doesnt make what she did any more right really, it just adds more shades of gray to things.
>
>
> Now the librarian thing sheds some different light on this, though its unsure if the covenant attacking humanity factored into her plans.
Helloooo? Does anyone in these threads EVER fragging BOTHER reading what people put?
The Spartan IIs were designed to stop the rebels, BECAUSE IF THEY DIDN’T THEN HUMANITY WOULD WIPE ITSELF OUT IN NUCLEAR CIVIL WAR. Or whatever the equivalent is in Haloverse.
“In 2517 the Office of Naval Intelligence began to reexamine the Carver Findings, which had warned of instability in the Outer Colonies years earlier.[6] The report rationalized that the instability would continue to escalate, and unless drastic military measures were taken, would result in a massive war between the inner colonies and the outer colonies.”
Seriously, I’m sick of posting when people are going on about ‘moral quandires’ when it was always a case of ‘A few for the many’.