Infinite needs to be a game for Sweats as well

Hey guys so I just wanted everyone’s opinion on there but one thing I liked about halo 5 (the multiplayer calm down) was the large skill gap that the advanced movement, certain jumps you could make on the map to get to vantage points faster than others, and how it was harder to hit your precision weapons in H5 than other halo’s introduced and made strafing just -Yoink- important as aiming and positioning while in the older ones it aiming and positioning reigned supreme.

Edit: (I’m aware many of the jumps were in H3 too)

-As well as how they successfully brought back halo’s competitive back and if you learned how to do the 3 you could absolutely destroy your competition.

  • I know advanced movement is not coming back because all the old head’s freaked out over it (at least not with sprint)

-But I’m sort of curious on what will be done to promote a competitive environment in Halo infinite and everyone’s opinion’s on if halo infinite should introduce and even higher skill gap than the previous ones and about the sweat community as a whole. What would you guys have as your ideal competitive halo?

Edit: Ok… a lot of people got a little upset guys I am not saying that the older games are bad (Maybe CE) I actually really like H2 and H3 and thinking they are strong comp games. The only criticism I was giving was that It primarily only focused on aim and map awareness and didn’t emphasize strafing as much.

Halo 5’s Bullet magnetism is the same as 3’s: Halo 5 vs Halo 3 | Bullet Magnetism - YouTube

Needs to be for both Sweat or Casual Audience

> 2535428779736382;2:
> Needs to be for both Sweat or Casual Audience

Ik that’s what I meant but some halo’s make it too easy to hit ur shots and it just becomes a positioning who shot first game. They just need a way to make it more challenging for sweaty players to like H5 did

Quite frankly I’ve always considered H5 to be the least competitive Halo after Reach out there. Imho the AMM of the game strongly reduced the skill gap between players who mastered the fairly complex layout instead of increasing it. Running away is too easy, map control doesn’t feel as important anymore either and learning all those “hard” jumps isn’t as difficult as precise crouch jumping to me either.

Overall the sealing felt lower as well to me, primarily because of faster TTK compared to its higher speed and the magnetism helps a lot with PW. The pistol is the only saving grace to me. It’s a perfect weapon for competitive play-styles! Everything around it is what breaks it for me.

H5 got “sweaty” of course, but more because of the faster tempo than anything else, at least to me. Or maybe I just had it easier to get into because of all the modern shooters out there already. So I just might have been better prepared for 5 compared to older entries. Still, when someone askes me about competitive sweaty Halo I automatically think about 4v4 slayer in H2 on Lockout or FFA slayer on Guardian in H3. Highly subjective though, I get it!

As Hi not getting an AMM gameplay style, well, I wouldn’t be too sure about it… I would guess that we’re at least (sadly) getting sprint as a base mechanic. I’m saying it because Tom French - the director of Halo 5’s Forge Mode - was clearly pro sprint and AMM while he was still working for 343i. And many devs there have the same mind set that Halo has to evolve its base mechanics to stay relevant. We also got some backdrops of Hi development in the “We are 343” video and we can clearly see a sprint animation as well as a grappling hook icon.

So, you say that H5g was good in competitive sense that you can get into vantage points faster, but you also mention that older games “were too easy” because positioning allowed people to kill the person they shot first because of positioning?
And I disagree with the latter one, you could have evaded death by utilizing the map & covers in older games too & not running around in the open to be easy target for others.
And difficulty in multiplayer is subjective as everyone has the same abilities & it’s just a matter of who utilizes those skillsets the best in given map environment & has knowledge of the map.
And map design has big difference in how people can gain good vantage points in games, some have flat surfaces & cla0mber while others have sweetspots for crouchjumping & risky but sometimes rewarding grenade jumps.

And do you imply giving players more inaccurate weapons creates more competitive & skill rewarding environment? That pretty much rewards players for having the same firing rhythm when firing, always. it’s not situational, it’s simple timing that is always the same while more accurate weapons in games reward the situational & faster shooter.

And tell me about it being hard to hit your shots with H5g bullet magnetism & huge hitboxes, especially around the head.

> 2535428779736382;2:
> Needs to be for both Sweat or Casual Audience

And a good example was halo 3 with their normal playlist and their MLG playlist where no casual would even try is luck even on level 1. I really loved Halo 5 multiplayer it was great, the only problem was that their introduced warzone which i really enjoyed and can’t wait for it new implementation in infinite. But they left out so many game type like king of hill, skull or even BTB and that attack and defense on Halo 2 anniversary on maps like Zanzibar which are classics. Can’t wait to have all of this at launch plus the introduction of new game type.

> 2533274795098161;4:
> Quite frankly I’ve always considered H5 to be the least competitive Halo after Reach out there. Imho the AMM of the game strongly reduced the skill gap between players who mastered the fairly complex layout instead of increasing it. Running away is too easy, map control doesn’t feel as important anymore either and learning all those “hard” isn’t as difficult as precise crouch jumping to me either.
>
> Overall the sealing felt lower as well to me, primarily because of faster TTK compared to its higher speed and the magnetism helps a lot with PW. The pistol is the only saving grace to me. It’s a perfect weapon for competitive play-styles! Everything around it is what breaks it for me.
>
> H5 got “sweaty” of course, but more because of the faster tempo than anything else, at least to me. Or maybe I just had it easier to get into because of all the modern shooters out there already. So I just might have been better prepared for 5 compared to older entries. Still, when someone askes me about competitive sweaty Halo I automatically think about 4v4 slayer in H2 on Lockout or FFA slayer on Guardian in H3. Highly subjective though, I get it!
>
> As Hi not getting an AMM gameplay style, well, I wouldn’t be too sure about it… I would guess that we’re at least (sadly) getting sprint as a base mechanic. I’m saying it because Tom French - the director of Halo 5’s Forge Mode - was clearly pro sprint and AMM while he was still working for 343i. And many devs there have the same mind set that Halo has to evolve its base mechanics to stay relevant. We also got some backdrops of Hi development in the “We are 343” video and we can clearly see a sprint animation as well as a grappling hook icon.

completely disagree with you for me halo was the most competitive halo cause you have so many ways to move around the map that you really need to be prepared when the other team attacks you for example on strongholds and you think twice before challenging someone hiding in a corner cause you never know which abilities he is going to use plus the game feels faster not slow like halo 3.

> 2535431951485053;3:
> > 2535428779736382;2:
> > Needs to be for both Sweat or Casual Audience
>
> Ik that’s what I meant but some halo’s make it too easy to hit ur shots and it just becomes a positioning who shot first game. They just need a way to make it more challenging for sweaty players to like H5 did

I know what you are talking about. Already I see many people who have replied do not understand what you are saying and I can see this discussion taking a turn. What you want, what I want. Is a game that is still as competitive as Halo 5 but not go back to previous tiles. By doing this, the movement must be like Halo 5 but without sprint. It will b hard, but I believe it is possible. I loved the jumps you could do in Halo 5 which is why I still play it. There needs to be a way were Infinite has a definite skill gap in movement making the game more competitive while keeping about abilities from H5 to keep others happy.

This might be just semantics… but when I think of a casual game… it means I can pick it up and learn it quickly and have fun.
when I think of a sweaty competitive game, I think of a climb in skill and method of playing that one can learn over playing the game over a long course of time.
Both can very well be doable at the same time.

In my mind, fast paced games are harder to pick up and have fun. Maybe they are more fun to watch thou… It doesnt have to be fast to be competitive.
But then again, traversing the map when maps are big… which i like them big… is an issue that i guess you have to solve. Competive players dont like the hikes they have to take to get to a place of engagement.

I really dont know how to solve that issue.
But should we have smaller maps… then competitive is easy and convinient with slower gameplay.

As for in casual gameplay… bigger maps, vehicles, grav lifts… and all the sort of goodies can help there.

as someone has mentioned, I dont think we will be getting rid of sprint (unless… you end up sprinting automatically… which i dont mind)
As for aiming… id actually appreciate some interesting mechanic that would link aiming to your speed. Say for example if you are moving fast… hip fire is what occurs. Moving slower, aiming automatically occurs. And have the difference between the two ever so slightly distinct.
Maybe aiming could occur such as moving fast while “aiming” just holds the gun a bit steadier. and aiming while slow can make you zoom down the scope. Just some ideas im throwing out there.

having simple sandbox for competitive could also go a long way. Every weapon filling a specific niche. Percision, Close quarters… etc to promote more strategy in game.

Now I realize my comment is all over the place. Ah well it is what it is.

> 2533274795098161;4:
> Quite frankly I’ve always considered H5 to be the least competitive Halo after Reach out there. Imho the AMM of the game strongly reduced the skill gap between players who mastered the fairly complex layout instead of increasing it. Running away is too easy, map control doesn’t feel as important anymore either and learning all those “hard” jumps isn’t as difficult as precise crouch jumping to me either.
>
> Overall the sealing felt lower as well to me, primarily because of faster TTK compared to its higher speed and the magnetism helps a lot with PW. The pistol is the only saving grace to me. It’s a perfect weapon for competitive play-styles! Everything around it is what breaks it for me.
>
> H5 got “sweaty” of course, but more because of the faster tempo than anything else, at least to me. Or maybe I just had it easier to get into because of all the modern shooters out there already. So I just might have been better prepared for 5 compared to older entries. Still, when someone askes me about competitive sweaty Halo I automatically think about 4v4 slayer in H2 on Lockout or FFA slayer on Guardian in H3. Highly subjective though, I get it!
>
> As Hi not getting an AMM gameplay style, well, I wouldn’t be too sure about it… I would guess that we’re at least (sadly) getting sprint as a base mechanic. I’m saying it because Tom French - the director of Halo 5’s Forge Mode - was clearly pro sprint and AMM while he was still working for 343i. And many devs there have the same mind set that Halo has to evolve its base mechanics to stay relevant. We also got some backdrops of Hi development in the “We are 343” video and we can clearly see a sprint animation as well as a grappling hook icon.

I Should have mentioned the HCS update nerfed the AR and automatics making it mostly a cleanup gun and made the magnum the more viable weapon.

  • As for the the bullet magnetism that has been debunked by this video comparing the bullet magnetism to halo 3 showing that it had less bullet magnetism in some cases
    Halo 5 vs Halo 3 | Bullet Magnetism - YouTube
  • You also cannot sprint and regen halo in H5 and someone who understands the map well can easily cut you off and kill you and due to the higher TTK it isn’t than hard but what I liked about the thrust was that it gave you a bailout to some situations that were impossible to get out of in previous halo games like being double naded when you were standing still
  • There are more than jumps than crouch jumps and many maps if you look hard enough you will find many jumps you can do to get a power position
    Jump like a PRO! ~ Tutorial on EVERY known Jump in Halo 5 - YouTube Halo got more sweaty because in H5 its harder to hit your shots when someone is moving a lot faster and most of it is now about aiming and positioning if you don’t believe me see for yourself in arena but unfortunately most people won’t see it that way.
  • PS: (Guys by defending Halo 5’s Competitive and using it as a standard I’m not saying halo 3 or 2 are bad I actually enjoy those games too)

> 2533274890014309;5:
> So, you say that H5g was good in competitive sense that you can get into vantage points faster, but you also mention that older games “were too easy” because positioning allowed people to kill the person they shot first because of positioning?
> And I disagree with the latter one, you could have evaded death by utilizing the map & covers in older games too & not running around in the open to be easy target for others.
> And difficulty in multiplayer is subjective as everyone has the same abilities & it’s just a matter of who utilizes those skillsets the best in given map environment & has knowledge of the map.
> And map design has big difference in how people can gain good vantage points in games, some have flat surfaces & cla0mber while others have sweetspots for crouchjumping & risky but sometimes rewarding grenade jumps.
>
> And do you imply giving players more inaccurate weapons creates more competitive & skill rewarding environment? That pretty much rewards players for having the same firing rhythm when firing, always. it’s not situational, it’s simple timing that is always the same while more accurate weapons in games reward the situational & faster shooter.
>
> And tell me about it being hard to hit your shots with H5g bullet magnetism & huge hitboxes, especially around the head.

  • Ok so the comments about the bullet magnetism are just wrong: Halo 5 vs Halo 3 | Bullet Magnetism - YouTube - Also my argument which I should have made better was that Halo 3 and older slower paced halo’s had 2 main components and those being aim and positioning while halo 5 had 3 with the options for strafing being improved, and that in future halo games to have strafing still be just as important as positioning and aim.

Then I asked people what their ideal situation would be for a Halo infinite sweat competitive scene (sorry for confusing u)

> 2535431951485053;11:
> > 2533274890014309;5:
> > So, you say that H5g was good in competitive sense that you can get into vantage points faster, but you also mention that older games “were too easy” because positioning allowed people to kill the person they shot first because of positioning?
> > And I disagree with the latter one, you could have evaded death by utilizing the map & covers in older games too & not running around in the open to be easy target for others.
> > And difficulty in multiplayer is subjective as everyone has the same abilities & it’s just a matter of who utilizes those skillsets the best in given map environment & has knowledge of the map.
> > And map design has big difference in how people can gain good vantage points in games, some have flat surfaces & cla0mber while others have sweetspots for crouchjumping & risky but sometimes rewarding grenade jumps.
> >
> > And do you imply giving players more inaccurate weapons creates more competitive & skill rewarding environment? That pretty much rewards players for having the same firing rhythm when firing, always. it’s not situational, it’s simple timing that is always the same while more accurate weapons in games reward the situational & faster shooter.
> >
> > And tell me about it being hard to hit your shots with H5g bullet magnetism & huge hitboxes, especially around the head.
>
> - Ok so the comments about the bullet magnetism are just wrong: Halo 5 vs Halo 3 | Bullet Magnetism - YouTube - Also my argument which I should have made better was that Halo 3 and older slower paced halo’s had 2 main components and those being aim and positioning while halo 5 had 3 with the options for strafing being improved, and that in future halo games to have strafing still be just as important as positioning and aim.
>
> Then I asked people what their ideal situation would be for a Halo infinite sweat competitive scene (sorry for confusing u)

So how exactly that would prove the whole bullet magnetism thing wrong? If Halo 3 has casual bullet magnetism then that doesn’t remove H5g having casual bullet magnetism, it just shows that some other Halo games have had bullet magnetism too which doesn’t suddenly turn it into nonexistent thing in H5g.

Casual mechanic is still a casual mechanic, even if used before, it doesn’t turn it into a part of a competitive gameplay for me.

And if you compare Halo 3 to H5g & their pacing in maps, they are around the same speed, H5g might be even a bit slower given remade maps have been upscaled & you cant exactly sprint all the time in H5g, I would say both are rather slow in sense of map traversal, I think that simply the base speed should be faster.

And claiming that strafing adds much to the competitive aspect is pretty much grasping on straws, it depends highly on the balance of strafe distance & the blast radius of explosive weapons, sure it can be made right but it really wasn’t such in H5g.
And to made strafing an important part of the gameplay to work as a competitive aspect, the map needs to be adjusted accordingly, So for movement it can easily be replaced by some tricks that Halo already had like crouch jumping which could be used to reach said vantage points, like mentioned depends on map design, it could also be used to avoid the worst of blast radius & to avoid being splattered.
And it also takes away from riskier tactics that can be mastered, like grenade jumping, by influencing the map design where both can’t really coexist, either the strafing replaces the grenade jumps or the knockback radius from grenades would be required to be far too huge, and in my mind, mastering the risky tactics, such as grenade jumping, requires more competitive skills in form of strategic resource utilizing, thinking of whether the desired position is worth the chip damage in addition to mastering the timing & radiuses of different grenades.

Strifing is not a bad mechanic in itself but it eats away from so many various aspects, including competitive ones, that I don’t really see it as an worthy addition to Halo.

And don’t worry, it’s no confusing at all, these replies simply are about competitive aspects of Halo, writing about ideals of every aspects at once would be pretty much too expansive for a single post.

What seems to confuse you is that you only seem to take on account of the competitive aspects of core gameplay mechanics & not taking on account their relation to sandbox elements & what they can offer to the competitive elements.
every core mechanic has it’s effect on the competitive aspects outside of it, like mentioned map design & limited resources.
I simply would prefer the constant fast gameplay accompanied with various strategic limited resources & smart map design as a way of making a competitive future for Halo without dilluting the value of strategic resource management or even sacrificing something like value of vehicles for casual matches.

Im simply thinking outside of the armor, so to speak. when discussing about the competitive side of Halo.

> 2533274890014309;12:
> > 2535431951485053;11:
> > > 2533274890014309;5:
> > > So, you say that H5g was good in competitive sense that you can get into vantage points faster, but you also mention that older games “were too easy” because positioning allowed people to kill the person they shot first because of positioning?
> > > And I disagree with the latter one, you could have evaded death by utilizing the map & covers in older games too & not running around in the open to be easy target for others.
> > > And difficulty in multiplayer is subjective as everyone has the same abilities & it’s just a matter of who utilizes those skillsets the best in given map environment & has knowledge of the map.
> > > And map design has big difference in how people can gain good vantage points in games, some have flat surfaces & cla0mber while others have sweetspots for crouchjumping & risky but sometimes rewarding grenade jumps.
> > >
> > > And do you imply giving players more inaccurate weapons creates more competitive & skill rewarding environment? That pretty much rewards players for having the same firing rhythm when firing, always. it’s not situational, it’s simple timing that is always the same while more accurate weapons in games reward the situational & faster shooter.
> > >
> > > And tell me about it being hard to hit your shots with H5g bullet magnetism & huge hitboxes, especially around the head.
> >
> > - Ok so the comments about the bullet magnetism are just wrong: Halo 5 vs Halo 3 | Bullet Magnetism - YouTube - Also my argument which I should have made better was that Halo 3 and older slower paced halo’s had 2 main components and those being aim and positioning while halo 5 had 3 with the options for strafing being improved, and that in future halo games to have strafing still be just as important as positioning and aim.
> >
> > Then I asked people what their ideal situation would be for a Halo infinite sweat competitive scene (sorry for confusing u)
>
> So how exactly that would prove the whole bullet magnetism thing wrong? If Halo 3 has casual bullet magnetism then that doesn’t remove H5g having casual bullet magnetism, it just shows that some other Halo games have had bullet magnetism too which doesn’t suddenly turn it into nonexistent thing in H5g.
>
> Casual mechanic is still a casual mechanic, even if used before, it doesn’t turn it into a part of a competitive gameplay for me.
>
> And if you compare Halo 3 to H5g & their pacing in maps, they are around the same speed, H5g might be even a bit slower given remade maps have been upscaled & you cant exactly sprint all the time in H5g, I would say both are rather slow in sense of map traversal, I think that simply the base speed should be faster.
>
> And claiming that strafing adds much to the competitive aspect is pretty much grasping on straws, it depends highly on the balance of strafe distance & the blast radius of explosive weapons, sure it can be made right but it really wasn’t such in H5g.
> And to made strafing an important part of the gameplay to work as a competitive aspect, the map needs to be adjusted accordingly, So for movement it can easily be replaced by some tricks that Halo already had like crouch jumping which could be used to reach said vantage points, like mentioned depends on map design, it could also be used to avoid the worst of blast radius & to avoid being splattered.
> And it also takes away from riskier tactics that can be mastered, like grenade jumping, by influencing the map design where both can’t really coexist, either the strafing replaces the grenade jumps or the knockback radius from grenades would be required to be far too huge, and in my mind, mastering the risky tactics, such as grenade jumping, requires more competitive skills in form of strategic resource utilizing, thinking of whether the desired position is worth the chip damage in addition to mastering the timing & radiuses of different grenades.
>
> Strifing is not a bad mechanic in itself but it eats away from so many various aspects, including competitive ones, that I don’t really see it as an worthy addition to Halo.
>
> And don’t worry, it’s no confusing at all, these replies simply are about competitive aspects of Halo, writing about ideals of every aspects at once would be pretty much too expansive for a single post.
>
> What seems to confuse you is that you only seem to take on account of the competitive aspects of core gameplay mechanics & not taking on account their relation to sandbox elements & what they can offer to the competitive elements.
> every core mechanic has it’s effect on the competitive aspects outside of it, like mentioned map design & limited resources.
> I simply would prefer the constant fast gameplay accompanied with various strategic limited resources & smart map design as a way of making a competitive future for Halo without dilluting the value of strategic resource management or even sacrificing something like value of vehicles for casual matches.
>
> Im simply thinking outside of the armor, so to speak. when discussing about the competitive side of Halo.

  • So for the bullet magnetism a common argument I hear against Halo 5 is that It has an Increased amount of bullet magnetism so hitting shots is easier than in other halo’s hence making Halo 5 for noobs the reason this was, was because It was the 1st time the devs admitted this tbh
  • And when I meant strafing there is more like to it now and you can with the thrusts, stabilizers, ducking quicker to avoid getting shot and you can combine these to have your own style of strafing and it gives you more individuality in then in previous halo’s and I think it is enough to add a whole new aspect because if you can aim and have good map awareness but can’t strafe you will likely not even make the it far in comp
  • about the maps a lot of them have been upscaled but Ur also not taking into account the way you combine sprinting+thrusting+gliding to move around the map along with downhill gliding
  • both H3 and H5 have timed jumps but H5’s are more fun to do in my opinion because you have to press more buttons at the right time for the combo to work which I think takes more skill
  • And at higher levels you do have to be smart with your grenades and resources especially in game types like doubles that’s universal for all halo’s (except for CE) and know when to push and play conservative what I like is how much the tempo of the games can play out.

> 2535431951485053;13:
> > 2533274890014309;12:
> > > 2535431951485053;11:
> > > > 2533274890014309;5:
> > > > So, you say that H5g was good in competitive sense that you can get into vantage points faster, but you also mention that older games “were too easy” because positioning allowed people to kill the person they shot first because of positioning?
> > > > And I disagree with the latter one, you could have evaded death by utilizing the map & covers in older games too & not running around in the open to be easy target for others.
> > > > And difficulty in multiplayer is subjective as everyone has the same abilities & it’s just a matter of who utilizes those skillsets the best in given map environment & has knowledge of the map.
> > > > And map design has big difference in how people can gain good vantage points in games, some have flat surfaces & cla0mber while others have sweetspots for crouchjumping & risky but sometimes rewarding grenade jumps.
> > > >
> > > > And do you imply giving players more inaccurate weapons creates more competitive & skill rewarding environment? That pretty much rewards players for having the same firing rhythm when firing, always. it’s not situational, it’s simple timing that is always the same while more accurate weapons in games reward the situational & faster shooter.
> > > >
> > > > And tell me about it being hard to hit your shots with H5g bullet magnetism & huge hitboxes, especially around the head.
> >
> > So how exactly that would prove the whole bullet magnetism thing wrong? If Halo 3 has casual bullet magnetism then that doesn’t remove H5g having casual bullet magnetism, it just shows that some other Halo games have had bullet magnetism too which doesn’t suddenly turn it into nonexistent thing in H5g.
> >
> >
> > And if you compare Halo 3 to H5g & their pacing in maps, they are around the same speed, H5g might be even a bit slower given remade maps have been upscaled & you cant exactly sprint all the time in H5g, I would say both are rather slow in sense of map traversal, I think that simply the base speed should be faster.
> >
> > And claiming that strafing adds much to the competitive aspect is pretty much grasping on straws, it depends highly on the balance of strafe distance & the blast radius of explosive weapons, sure it can be made right but it really wasn’t such in H5g.
> > And to made strafing an important part of the gameplay to work as a competitive aspect, the map needs to be adjusted accordingly, So for movement it can easily be replaced by some tricks that Halo already had like crouch jumping which could be used to reach said vantage points, like mentioned depends on map design, it could also be used to avoid the worst of blast radius & to avoid being splattered.
> > And it also takes away from riskier tactics that can be mastered, like grenade jumping, by influencing the map design where both can’t really coexist, either the strafing replaces the grenade jumps or the knockback radius from grenades would be required to be far too huge, and in my mind, mastering the risky tactics, such as grenade jumping, requires more competitive skills in form of strategic resource utilizing, thinking of whether the desired position is worth the chip damage in addition to mastering the timing & radiuses of different grenades.
> >
> > Strifing is not a bad mechanic in itself but it eats away from so many various aspects, including competitive ones, that I don’t really see it as an worthy addition to Halo.
> >
> > And don’t worry, it’s no confusing at all, these replies simply are about competitive aspects of Halo, writing about ideals of every aspects at once would be pretty much too expansive for a single post.
> >
> > What seems to confuse you is that you only seem to take on account of the competitive aspects of core gameplay mechanics & not taking on account their relation to sandbox elements & what they can offer to the competitive elements.
> > every core mechanic has it’s effect on the competitive aspects outside of it, like mentioned map design & limited resources.
> > I simply would prefer the constant fast gameplay accompanied with various strategic limited resources & smart map design as a way of making a competitive future for Halo without dilluting the value of strategic resource management or even sacrificing something like value of vehicles for casual matches.
> >
> > Im simply thinking outside of the armor, so to speak. when discussing about the competitive side of Halo.
>
> - So for the bullet magnetism a common argument I hear against Halo 5 is that It has an Increased amount of bullet magnetism so hitting shots is easier than in other halo’s hence making Halo 5 for noobs the reason this was, was because It was the 1st time the devs admitted this tbh
> - And when I meant strafing there is more like to it now and you can with the thrusts, stabilizers, ducking quicker to avoid getting shot and you can combine these to have your own style of strafing and it gives you more individuality in then in previous halo’s and I think it is enough to add a whole new aspect because if you can aim and have good map awareness but can’t strafe you will likely not even make the it far in comp
> - about the maps a lot of them have been upscaled but Ur also not taking into account the way you combine sprinting+thrusting+gliding to move around the map along with downhill gliding
> - both H3 and H5 have timed jumps but H5’s are more fun to do in my opinion because you have to press more buttons at the right time for the combo to work which I think takes more skill
> - And at higher levels you do have to be smart with your grenades and resources especially in game types like doubles that’s universal for all halo’s (except for CE) and know when to push and play conservative what I like is how much the tempo of the games can play out.

It definitely is common but it’s not my point, I mentioned it as it was used in topic as example of competitive gameplay & it being harder to hit shots, I fdon’t really tend to list every other game that does the same, the point itself simply was that H5g too has these casual mechanics which doesn’t belong in competitive gameplay.

And only aspect out of that list that really differs from other Halo games is thrusters which I addressed having negative impact on other competitive aspects in Halo, along with some casual variation bringing aspects but the latter is irrelevant in this topic, stabilizer is also, in a way, new, but that is basically prolonged mid air crouch & is in most scenarios more casual version of it.

And multi-level movement in maps? that also has it’s part when designing the cale of maps, jump distances matter & the best map skips should be reserved to some that have mastered some harder mechanics, mastering pressing LB while airborne seems easier to me than mastering grenade jumps, which can be utilized to reach far away lower mid platforms too, if true skill gap is desired.

And whether pressing more buttons is fun is subjective, also irrelevant as you made it clear in the topic that this is about competitive Halo, & whether it takes more skill, which is still marginal, in this particular type of situation doesn’t seem to be worth the sacrifice it requires from other possible competitive aspects.

And you definitely have to be smart with grenades, even when it’s simply to be utilized offensively or even as distraction, but grenades being utilized as part of the movement adds a competitive element with only good players being able to utilize them in proper manner without sacrificing too much of their offensive capabilities or leaving themselves vulnerable.

> 2533274890014309;14:
> > 2535431951485053;13:
> > > 2533274890014309;12:
> > > > 2535431951485053;11:
> > > > > 2533274890014309;5:
> > > > > So, you say that H5g was good in competitive sense that you can get into vantage points faster, but you also mention that older games “were too easy” because positioning allowed people to kill the person they shot first because of positioning?
> > > > > And I disagree with the latter one, you could have evaded death by utilizing the map & covers in older games too & not running around in the open to be easy target for others.
> > > > > And difficulty in multiplayer is subjective as everyone has the same abilities & it’s just a matter of who utilizes those skillsets the best in given map environment & has knowledge of the map.
> > > > > And map design has big difference in how people can gain good vantage points in games, some have flat surfaces & cla0mber while others have sweetspots for crouchjumping & risky but sometimes rewarding grenade jumps.
> > > > >
> > > > > And do you imply giving players more inaccurate weapons creates more competitive & skill rewarding environment? That pretty much rewards players for having the same firing rhythm when firing, always. it’s not situational, it’s simple timing that is always the same while more accurate weapons in games reward the situational & faster shooter.
> > > > >
> > > > > And tell me about it being hard to hit your shots with H5g bullet magnetism & huge hitboxes, especially around the head.
> > >
> > > So how exactly that would prove the whole bullet magnetism thing wrong? If Halo 3 has casual bullet magnetism then that doesn’t remove H5g having casual bullet magnetism, it just shows that some other Halo games have had bullet magnetism too which doesn’t suddenly turn it into nonexistent thing in H5g.
> > >
> > > And if you compare Halo 3 to H5g & their pacing in maps, they are around the same speed, H5g might be even a bit slower given remade maps have been upscaled & you cant exactly sprint all the time in H5g, I would say both are rather slow in sense of map traversal, I think that simply the base speed should be faster.
> > >
> > > And claiming that strafing adds much to the competitive aspect is pretty much grasping on straws, it depends highly on the balance of strafe distance & the blast radius of explosive weapons, sure it can be made right but it really wasn’t such in H5g.
> > > And to made strafing an important part of the gameplay to work as a competitive aspect, the map needs to be adjusted accordingly, So for movement it can easily be replaced by some tricks that Halo already had like crouch jumping which could be used to reach said vantage points, like mentioned depends on map design, it could also be used to avoid the worst of blast radius & to avoid being splattered.
> > > And it also takes away from riskier tactics that can be mastered, like grenade jumping, by influencing the map design where both can’t really coexist, either the strafing replaces the grenade jumps or the knockback radius from grenades would be required to be far too huge, and in my mind, mastering the risky tactics, such as grenade jumping, requires more competitive skills in form of strategic resource utilizing, thinking of whether the desired position is worth the chip damage in addition to mastering the timing & radiuses of different grenades.
> > >
> > > Strifing is not a bad mechanic in itself but it eats away from so many various aspects, including competitive ones, that I don’t really see it as an worthy addition to Halo.
> > >
> > > And don’t worry, it’s no confusing at all, these replies simply are about competitive aspects of Halo, writing about ideals of every aspects at once would be pretty much too expansive for a single post.
> > >
> > > What seems to confuse you is that you only seem to take on account of the competitive aspects of core gameplay mechanics & not taking on account their relation to sandbox elements & what they can offer to the competitive elements.
> > > every core mechanic has it’s effect on the competitive aspects outside of it, like mentioned map design & limited resources.
> > > I simply would prefer the constant fast gameplay accompanied with various strategic limited resources & smart map design as a way of making a competitive future for Halo without dilluting the value of strategic resource management or even sacrificing something like value of vehicles for casual matches.
> > >
> > > Im simply thinking outside of the armor, so to speak. when discussing about the competitive side of Halo.
> >
> > - So for the bullet magnetism a common argument I hear against Halo 5 is that It has an Increased amount of bullet magnetism so hitting shots is easier than in other halo’s hence making Halo 5 for noobs the reason this was, was because It was the 1st time the devs admitted this tbh
> > - And when I meant strafing there is more like to it now and you can with the thrusts, stabilizers, ducking quicker to avoid getting shot and you can combine these to have your own style of strafing and it gives you more individuality in then in previous halo’s and I think it is enough to add a whole new aspect because if you can aim and have good map awareness but can’t strafe you will likely not even make the it far in comp
> > - about the maps a lot of them have been upscaled but Ur also not taking into account the way you combine sprinting+thrusting+gliding to move around the map along with downhill gliding
> > - both H3 and H5 have timed jumps but H5’s are more fun to do in my opinion because you have to press more buttons at the right time for the combo to work which I think takes more skill
> > - And at higher levels you do have to be smart with your grenades and resources especially in game types like doubles that’s universal for all halo’s (except for CE) and know when to push and play conservative what I like is how much the tempo of the games can play out.
>
> It definitely is common but it’s not my point, I mentioned it as it was used in topic as example of competitive gameplay & it being harder to hit shots, I fdon’t really tend to list every other game that does the same, the point itself simply was that H5g too has these casual mechanics which doesn’t belong in competitive gameplay.
>
> And only aspect out of that list that really differs from other Halo games is thrusters which I addressed having negative impact on other competitive aspects in Halo, along with some casual variation bringing aspects but the latter is irrelevant in this topic, stabilizer is also, in a way, new, but that is basically prolonged mid air crouch & is in most scenarios more casual version of it.
>
> And multi-level movement in maps? that also has it’s part when designing the cale of maps, jump distances matter & the best map skips should be reserved to some that have mastered some harder mechanics, mastering pressing LB while airborne seems easier to me than mastering grenade jumps, which can be utilized to reach far away lower mid platforms too, if true skill gap is desired.
>
> And whether pressing more buttons is fun is subjective, also irrelevant as you made it clear in the topic that this is about competitive Halo, & whether it takes more skill, which is still marginal, in this particular type of situation doesn’t seem to be worth the sacrifice it requires from other possible competitive aspects.
>
> And you definitely have to be smart with grenades, even when it’s simply to be utilized offensively or even as distraction, but grenades being utilized as part of the movement adds a competitive element with only good players being able to utilize them in proper manner without sacrificing too much of their offensive capabilities or leaving themselves vulnerable.

> 2533274890014309;5:
> So, you say that H5g was good in competitive sense that you can get into vantage points faster, but you also mention that older games “were too easy” because positioning allowed people to kill the person they shot first because of positioning?
> And I disagree with the latter one, you could have evaded death by utilizing the map & covers in older games too & not running around in the open to be easy target for others.
> And difficulty in multiplayer is subjective as everyone has the same abilities & it’s just a matter of who utilizes those skillsets the best in given map environment & has knowledge of the map.
> And map design has big difference in how people can gain good vantage points in games, some have flat surfaces & cla0mber while others have sweetspots for crouchjumping & risky but sometimes rewarding grenade jumps.
>
> And do you imply giving players more inaccurate weapons creates more competitive & skill rewarding environment? That pretty much rewards players for having the same firing rhythm when firing, always. it’s not situational, it’s simple timing that is always the same while more accurate weapons in games reward the situational & faster shooter.
>
> And tell me about it being hard to hit your shots with H5g bullet magnetism & huge hitboxes, especially around the head.

  • It is a lot more than just jumping and pressing LB and crouch jumping is still very much a thing in H5 and grenade jumps are still available to be done they are just not the meta anymore

> 2535431951485053;16:
> > 2533274890014309;5:
> >
>
> - It is a lot more than just jumping and pressing LB and crouch jumping is still very much a thing in H5 and grenade jumps are still available to be done they are just not the meta anymore

Grenade, even rocket jumps are still a thing in H5. They are obsolete because a stabilize or spring jump can not only make you jump higher but keep your shields full lol. So, what was this thread about again?

> 2533274795098161;4:
> We also got some backdrops of Hi development in the “We are 343” video and we can clearly see a sprint animation as well as a grappling hook icon.

those clips and images actually aren’t from infinite. according to 343, the image with the grappling hook is from a very early prototype of h4, likewise the clip with sprint is most likely a early prototype of h5. Remember, 343’s response to these “leaked” gameplay clips was that they review videos like this to make sure no information regarding the current game in development can be found

The problem that it was too competitive. What it needs is some good rewarding system to make players reason why they should keep playing. There also needs to be a good ranking progression and some daily rewards.

There is no reason that we can’t have a game that is tons of fun for casual play while still being well thought out for competitive play. CE has the largest skillgap of any Halo game but at the same time the skill floor is pretty low. The controls are simple and straightforward and as a result the game is easy to pick up and play while still being difficult to master.

Some of Halo 5’s mechanics can be said to raise the skill floor, but due to the increase in aim assist and magnetism that accompanies those additions the skill gap doesn’t actually widen all that much. So what happens with Halo 5 is that we are left with a situation where Halo 5 is slightly more difficult to pick up and play than past Halo games and the some of the only options you have to play standard gametypes is via a visible ranked system which has a natural tendency to make folks “sweaty” and make it hard for some folks to enjoy casual play outside of ultra casual affairs like Warzone or action sack.

The simplest solution for bridging the “Sweaty” and “Casual” divide is twofold
1.) Keep core mechanics as simple as possible. Games that appeal to both groups are easy to learn, but difficult to master. See: Halo CE, Super Smash Bros Melee.
Whether you like Halo 5’s mechanics or not, I find it hard to argue that there isn’t some fat you could trim to make the game more approachable for newcomers. And CE demonstrates you can make a game with a lot of depth without front-loading it onto base mechanics.

2.) Minimize the number of visibly ranked playlists. Some degree of invisible matchmaking is necessary to ensure matches are not a boring, one sided slaughter, but realistically there should only be a handful of visibly ranked playlists. There should only be 3 ranked playlists which should all be curated “Tournament” style gametypes: Hardcore FFA, Doubles, Hardcore 4v4 Arena. Naturally there should be casual variants of FFA and other 4v4 playlist like Team Slayer, but none of the other playlists need to be visibly ranked.

Naturally there is more we could do, but these are the two most important for keeping the game from getting too sweaty for casuals to enjoy while still creating a space where competitive players can thrive and diver deeper into the nitty-gritty parts of the game.