Infinite is dead

I guess my assumption was that they would use the match making ranking for, you know, match making.

I just don’t see why you would use it? Your CSR is just a number that goes up and down with wins. It chases the left hand tail of your MMR curve (two standard deviations below the mean).

When your curve is mature it is narrow enough that the CSR is the same as your MMR. Give or take some drift with a run of expected wins or losses.

I’m not sure what value it adds?

I have to admit that that’s kind of what I thought it would do.

Why?

If your CSR is Diamond then your MMR will be Diamond - or there abouts. So I’m not sure what else the CSR adds. It’s just a visual summary of your MMR. It’s just confusing because 343 decided they should be same scale (instead of 1-50 for example).

Early in placement your CSR can be way below your MMR (wide curve). But that’s ok as the MMR still works around it’s mean value for matchmaking.

Not sure what anyone expected, I think its great for casual gamers like myself that jump in every so often to kill some time. Honest statement, the less people online the quicker I can find some great matches. HALO FOREVER!

Okay this is the last thing im going to say on this as this has gone from a topic about is the game dead to a topic on matchmaking. In H5 my buddy was consistently a gold 5 and my two other buddies agreed to carry him with me as high as we could. Boosting. He isn’t good at all and consistently did really bad so no way his MMR matched his CSR. We carried him to onyx 1700 while the rest of us hit champ. After that he played mostly on his own and the system matched him with onyx, diamond, plat players until his CSR dropped then he was no longer facing onyx when he hit plat then he dropped again and he was back to gold and barely had diamonds in his lobbies. So though his CSR was very high his MRR was very low. but yet it was still putting him in high CSR matches until the gap between CSR and MMR had closed. Yes, the two are closely tied together or at least the system tries to make it so but there are too many outliers for the two to consistently remain tied together. I’m not arguing how much the system weighs CSR when matching players I’m just arguing that it does in some way.

That’s what friends are for!

You will of course drag his CSR up by virtue of winning.

His MMR will tend to resist the change, mostly around his poor kill rates (and high death rates) while fighting out of his weight class.

But after a while it will go up. And to some extent it has to… Not as high as yours obviously, but your MMR is essentially a “team” rating. Even the worst player in the super bowl gets a ring.

On his own the system would have spun into reverse very quickly.

His MMR, which probably wasn’t that high anyway, would drop quickly (and thus the quality of his opposition).

But his CSR is a bit limited. It can only drop a maximum of 15 per loss.

So it may have lagged a bit.

Thanks for the chat. Much better than discussing Infinite’s death or not. :slight_smile:

Not sure what year you did this in, but the ranking system in 5 was broken at first. Players did not go down for losses, players ranked in at high onyx. Gold level players were able to win all the way up to champ etc.

Once fixed, over ranked players needed something like a 97% win rate to keep their inflated rank. Consider that…and then consider how many people quit 5 afterwards. Yea no one who had fake champ back then wanted to lose it. Those that did had the painful sight of seeing highest rank achieved saying champ on their service record when their other ranks in all other seasons wouldnt even be in daimond.

After that was fixed, you could not boost a bottom players rank as a consequence of your winning matches. The bottom player with the lowest rank boosted YOUR rank by feeding matchmaking easier players in your games where you’d have higher stats. This plagued match making.

Lowest player in a team almost always got the least amount of csr unless they started drastically pulling higher stats in their wins with the higher players. No one was boosting a gold player to high onyx after that was fixed man. Its the derankers, the FAKE gold players that boosted their buddied to champ that was happening. I played h5 all the way through, also havs the pleasure of conversing with the ranking systems creator back then. Sadly, none of those threads exist anymore after they updated waypoint. Back then the rank creator had an open thread where he would gladly tell you your hidden rank, show what the mmr graph looked like, etc.

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You’re absolutely right. It cant even keep up with games that have been released for YEARS now…fortnite, pubg, CS:Go, and more are way outperforming halo…which is NEW.

343 needs a different strategy…and honestly, they’ve dropped the ball as NickMercs said recently.

I think we need a fresh perspective to take over the franchise. 343 is 0 for 3 in halo games. Its the same thing everytime. Its dead in a matter of months…because they refuse to innovate and constantly release a game with ABSOLUTELY NO CONTENT.

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First off you completely misunderstood the whole conversation what it was about read from the first post.
We aren’t talking about the nuances of the true skill system we are talking about if CSR is a search parameter in matchmaking. The example I gave was a rough experiment that gave some insight to if it was or not.

It was a correction that needed to be made none the less. Anyone who starts reading at the bottom replies would be mislead to believe h5s ranking system was beyond busted if they just took what you wrote at face value is all. Doesn’t matter what it had to do with, only matters that its pointed out that it was fixed. I know you’re having a discussion with someone else, but reading that just gave me that impression. I played 5 from its alpha, beta, all the way into infinite, quit infinite, went back, then…came back to infinite since I like playing the new halo whichever it might end up being (though this halo made me uninstall it faster than any other game I’ve played.

So whatever point you’re trying to make between your other discussion wasnt something I even thought about. I just read what you wrote and wanted to just point out it out that it did not remain this extremely broken ranking system a reader would believe it to be if it wasn’t pointed out it eventually got better. Perhaps you played 5 all the way through and know this to be true already, I have no idea. Hope you get why i wrote it now.

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Alright, dude, I wanted to move along but I guess I’ve passed the point of no return. First, it was busted and yes still is busted H5 priorities Win/Loses for bumps in CSR so boosting is 100% still a thing the experiment was in 2019 around November. I never said it was easy or that losses didn’t set him back dramatically when they did happen which is why we hit champ and he didn’t. Halo Infinite is much different in the new version of True skill with a limited amount of gain and loss and prioritizes performance over wins/losses.
And I don’t know what person that was playing H5 for its lifetime would say boosting wasn’t a problem.

Wanted to wait for today before I replied yes as I stated nothing has been missed on the road map yet and that’s a fact. Your whole counter is speculation stemming from hurt feelings. Forge is being worked on by an outsourcing company. And is projected for September that’s all I said I didn’t suggest anything except that 343i is keeping to their goals.

Again, I played it all the way through. A lobby spmetimes consisted of 4 friends where 1 is high champ, 2 mid onyx, 1 low onyx (barely above 1500s).

After a play sessions, the lowest onyx ends up D3 or D4, everyone else moves up. Lowest player lost more than the others during a loss, got less than others during a win. This same player continued to play across the week. This even set him back into platinum. He played alone, climbs back up. Plays with the group, gets screwed over. Many people can attest to this. I made a discord for our group, and that player I’m referring to is now a apex streamer whos been gaining traction. I can easily give you his name if you want to ask him about the experience yourself.

Place a gold player in place of his low onyx…you get my point my right? Absolutely No low ranked player is boosting up off of team mates. High players boost off of derankers all day though.

You can continue to talk about this to your hearts content. It’s just factually wrong. You cannot be carried high as the lowest players just from winning. Thats something you could do in older halos though. Hence why people even sold Rank 50 accounts back in the day. Now as to why anyone would want that? Man I couldn’t tell you. No idea how that ever became a thing.

Last thing ill part ways because I disagree with you, you disagree with me honestly I think we are arguing the same point in manyways just with a different end result. so gg

Its not about winning an argument for me at all bro. I get mo thrill or rush from this. You’re talking to someone who grinded the heck out of h5…hours a day bro…I’ve submitted support tickets and gotten players banned for EXACTLY what I’m talking about. A low ranked player(s) playing with higher ranked players to artificially boost the higher players accounts even further, all while only going up so much.

Here’s the run down so you get a clearer picture…and I know all of this from looking up each players match history. We’re talking multiple accounts being used here, probably by the same players. A rinse and repeat scenario.

Deranker account is made
Loses 10 matches, pulls bad stats. Places extremely low (the true skill of the player hidden, and can be onyx or even champ, the matches tell us the story)

1 team could have 1 or 2 fake deranked accounts with 2 normal accounts. It pulls in lower players for the players trying to boost (the non derank accounts) .raising their KPM every match. Initially, the derank accounts will rank up, up until a point, and the match making changes. They discard the fake accounts, and create another one.

How’d i find all this out? Because they were dumb enough to use similar GTs between all accounts being used almost in the same manner as a clan changes their gts to match. Diving into each account filled me with disgust. To see them sabotaging match making to go through their 10 matches…to see the losing teams lose so much csr because they were the under dogs in a match where theres basically 4 onyx players on board with 2 of them disguised s bronze, silver, gold and even low platinum…and its deciphered by seeing the damage dealt stat on the low accounts, watching their behavior change when the matches got too close.

Those accounts would not move up to champ without statistical changes, and then that removes the entire purpose of their creation. Trust me. I’m not speakingBS here bro. Literally deep dived into this ridiculous problem and reached out to support with full on conversation at one point.

So the new rank lock in who you can team with…the new 25 matches needed to even get into ranked…all from learning experiences of them across the last major title and this new one.

The ranking system is still in question. Earlier this week Tashi was interviewed. He decided to ask the viewers do they prefer 1-50, or current ranking system. Tons want 1-50 back, with all of the higher percentile players against 1-50 because they understand why it was bad. It just tripped me out how the question was organically brought up by tashi, without the interviewer even asking about 1-50. He was asking about champ ranks. Gave me the impression that the old 1-50 was probably being considered(Literally in the now) since a lot of fans either dont understand the current one, or hate it. I know this is going beyond what we’re talking about…but trust me man whenever the ranking stuff is in question, talked about, a new Rev…I’m always watching. To understand whatever changes about it, or give feedback about it. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn’t of course. I’m just 1 random player.

No ill will or…hate at all bro. Not trying to win an argument. I’m happy to admit when I’m wrong, but I know I’m not.

Same over 5000+ hours in the game, multiple chap, & onyx seasons on multiple accounts probably more then 6000 hours if I add up all my smurfs.

True this is a form of boosting what I was giving an example of was boosting but you might recognize it as more of a carry. I’m not disagreeing with your comprehension of this boosting method! It is simply not the method I was referring to. which is why I said we were arguing the same point but with different results.

Again not disagreeing with this concept of boosting never did you disagreed with my carry experiment and cited this as proof what I was saying was wrong but they are the exact same thing. One uses 3 skilled players to carry and artificially boost a low skilled player’s CSR. The other uses 2-3, not 1-2 low-skilled MMR accounts to essentially create a reverse boosting environment for a high MMR player. The reason I say yours is more in line with reverse boosting is because having 2-3 low MMR players greatly lowers the team MMR making it possible to match with lower MMR teams. While having 1 low MMR player does lower the team MMR its not substantal.

Never said you were wrong you said I was even though you didn’t read the entire conversation. Even though I was talking about a carry an alternative way to boost a single player you said I was wrong boosting doesn’t work that way you drew a line in the sand and said this is the only way. We are arguing the same point you just think because Im talking about a different method that I don’t know how your method works.

I’m saying you cannot do this. You cant carry a low skilled player to a high rank, when there are decent skiled players being screwed over in teams where they’re performing to their maximum capacity and being rewarded less for their wins, punished more for their losses. This is an exact example of the system PREVENTING carrying of lowest ranked player, even if lowest ranked player has good performances. The 2 cannot exist at the same time. This happens through normal gameplay, and would also happen when attempting to hard carry lowest ranked player up. It does not happen. Back when the ranking system was busted, sure, but once again…it changed. I gave the example for that already, which was experienced in 2021.

Okay so now im not wrong im a liar that this happened. It happened it might have been in 2018 or 2019 pretty sure nothing substancal has happened to the True Skill System in H5. I do remember the patch your talking about but I also remember it doing nothing at all to combat boosting. If you want I’m sure I can get my buddies in a discord call with you to tell you it happened. Im pretty sure we even have some clips laying around from the whole indever.

The same thing happened in infinite. Lowest ranked player always screwed over. Just like in 5. There were tons of threads about that.

I have it installed. Wouldn’t mind playing it again. Your buddies can carry me to champ and then sure I’ll change my mind. I’m saying what happened to every lowest ranked player of whatever team build up we had. Lowest onyx always dropped low daimond. Mid daimond always dropped low plat. Afterwards they’d play alone and have the weirdest match making against the easiest players. Playing with higher ranked players would always mess their mmr up.

So when we’re playing as a team and the lowest ranked player (which would be p6 or daimond floating onyx range) always got deranked hard after each session…in teams of even 75% win rate…i mean idk what else to tel you dude. None of us were trying to boost off of anyone, but its painfully obvious just how bad the experience was for lowest ranked player. Discouraging, and down right enraging for them to see their rank go further down from where they started, but the other 3 above where they started. If you want to take that as me calling you a liar, i mean believe what you want bro. We played h5 up to infinite, and some left infinite and are back in h5.

2018 was when the ranking system was busted. Thats the year things began to change leading up to 2019, and when the game demanded players maintain an insane win rate of damn near 100% to keep their inflated rank. It did change. Idk what else to tell you bro. I’m not making it up. When I played the game I placed into onyx in FFA (a game type i never even cared for) then later the highest you could place was D3. It was a game they continued to work on, got tons of experimental playlists…i mean heck dude it even had a 1v1 playlist with 1v1 maps in ranked. What other halo did that? And that came out years later. They didnt just leave it as it was. Thats why its shocking to see infinite so bare bones in comparison…without even a ranked slayer of all things.

We’re hijacking the thread at any rate bro. Im all for discussion over the love of halo though. You can hmu anytime on xbox. I loved h5. Contemplate going back to it all the time. I feel bored in infinite. I don’t want to continue a long back and forth over this though. I pretty much said all i could say about it. I appreciate you reading my long replies and the discussion.

True GG appreciate your passion. Don’t know if I’m going back to H5 or riding out this rocky road on H:I but ill send you a request.

For sure dude. Bro i got a friend who was like literally rank locked in h5 at p6. This dude would always play with us in higher ranked lobbies. He’d be a smidge away from d1 bro! He wanted it so bad. Just never could go up it was so weird. You’re telling me your experiences too bro. I know you’re not lying. Maybe im wrong, maybe my friends accounts were messed up, idk man. I just know i had a few friends become discouraged to join higher lobbies cause that would always happen, but they’d do it anyways because we were all really good friends and despite wanting to grind our rank, began to not care about it because we all just loved playing together.

Ride it out bro! We got like 9 years amd some change. Haha