> > agreed. There are very few maps that are really good in Halo 4. I bet if we start a petition 343i will give us remakes of at least a few of our favorite classic maps
>
> The problem is that a lot of the classic maps won’t work well with sprint and AAs. The Pit was a great map, but imagine it with people using sprint and jet packs, for example. It wouldn’t play at all the same.
The world would implode.
As much as I loved Sand Trap in Halo 3, it would be awful in this game. The DMR would destroy that map.
So, when remaking maps, we need to take a lot of these factors into account. Who knows how AA’s and Sprint would play out on maps like the Pit and Guardian. So many new factors to add into the equation.
LOL Who listens to IGN? They’ve always paid by publishers to give fantastic ratings!
They’re biased and well poor at reviewing. Yes some of the maps are godawful such as Abandon, but there’s nice ones such as Complex and Adrift.
> Before I start let me make it clear I am still confident Halo 4 can be a great game. We all know it has its problems, some more serious than others which will hopefully be addressed with the first TU.
>
> With that being said there is one area an update won’t have any impact on - maps.
>
> Ever since 2007, the maps being created in the Halo series have lost their touch. Take a look at Halo 4, there are three maps consistently voted for in the map rotation (Ragnarok, Exile, Haven). Ragnarok is a remake, so of the 10 maps that shipped with this game 2 are liked by the community. The others are utter garbage. I don’t even know the names of the two outdoor winter maps that were specifically designed for Dominion, talk about a waste of time and resources. Now we have the Crimson Map Pack on the horizon, which includes no remakes. All three maps are mid to large in size with vehicles (as if there aren’t enough large maps already). For the 3,000 people who play Dominion, I have exciting news! One of the maps in the new map pack was designed just for you!
>
> There are so many memorable maps from the first 3 Halo games. It’s baffling at how poorly designed the maps have become over the past 5 years.
>
> With the exception of Exile and Haven your maps are bad. You have already ruined the Crimson Map Pack by following the same trend, so please take our advice and create remakes for your last two map packs. And by remakes I mean no alterations, you did a great job with Ragnarok.
>
> I leave you with this great video from IGN highlighting the top 10 maps of all time, sure there can be some debate of a map or two that didn’t make the cut, but the bottom line is these maps were all fantastic and created so many iconic moments throughout the years, the same can’t be said with any maps released in the last 5 years.
>
> http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/12/01/top-10-halo-maps-of-all-time
>
> Lets let 343 know how we feel.
No remakes. To be honest, I didn’t want any remakes in Halo 4, but we got stuck with Ragnarok. I like what 343i did with creating brand new maps and only conceding 1 remake. Sadly, most of the brand new maps aren’t that great. Pre-Mantis Meltdown is one of the best BTB maps.
They shouldn’t be trying to implement remakes into the game. Most remakes will not work with Halo 4’s gameplay. Halo 4 has continuous sprint and AAs, such as Jetpack that will break most of the older maps. That is the problem with remakes, they don’t work with this “new” style of gameplay.
Say goodbye to maps like Midship, Lockout, Guardian, Warlock, etc. The small maps that can hold 2-8 players. Now, the “new” small size is the size of The Pit. The Pit is classified as a medium map, but in Halo 4, it would be classified as a small map, the same size as Haven and Abandon. Complex is friggin HUGE! It is not designed for 4v4 but it seems to be designed for AT MINIMUM 6v6 or 8v8.
What I am trying to say is that we shouldn’t be looking to remakes to fix the map problem since they don’t work with Sprint and AAs. The maps in Halo 4 are pathetic to say the least. What needs to happen is to start putting NEW forged maps into matchmaking(which will never happen because of the massive forge lag that is worse than in Reach).
The things with remakes is… that Halo 4 isn’t designed for them.
Ragnorak was pretty good since it was very big and open, which would support the weapons and vehicles better, plus all the new things like sprint and AAs.
But most other remakes? No… if you want a faithful remake, you need a faithful game first. They won’t play the same in Halo 4, they won’t be the same. Too many different things. Halo 4 maps need to be designed with all the AAs, sprint, general movement, vehicle movement, and weapons in mind. That is a lot of stuff they need that the old maps didn’t have. Your remakes will likely be changed a ton to incorporate the new things, which would make it lose most of its “classic” feel.
You would be better off just getting better maps in general for Halo 4, then bringing back old maps that will play and feel awkward as you force them into a playstyle they weren’t meant for.
Classic maps are meant for their game. Remakes work when those classics can be supported in a new style, but when they can’t… the remakes just don’t feel right. You won’t be getting faithful remakes of the good small maps, they’ll be too small and won’t support AAs. The big maps might work, but it’ll still be different and you seem to be against getting even more large maps.
Halo 4 has changed, a lot, since those maps were made. They won’t play the same, especially if you left them the way they are. Then if you change them a bunch to make it fit, they lose their classicness and people still complain.
I do agree that some things are weird or awkward in Halo 4. Complex needs to figure out wher eit belongs, because 4v4 just doesn’t feel right for me. Perhaps slayer in general should be upped to 5v5. I like a lot of the maps in Halo 4, some I don’t. But I don’t think using remakes will help that situation, especially if you want them to stay true to the original.
> LOL Who listens to IGN? They’ve always paid by publishers to give fantastic ratings!
>
> They’re biased and well poor at reviewing. Yes some of the maps are godawful such as Abandon, but there’s nice ones such as Complex and Adrift.
Abandon is actually a pretty good map, just absolutely horrible for CTF.
Complex is terrible. The map shows just how bad AC and the DMR are. There is no reason to move around the map because people will just spawn behind you. The DMR destroys on that map due to the lack of descoping. Complex is also terrible for KotH and CTF and Oddball. Even for Flood, it is way too open.
Adrift is only good with an objective on the map to make people move.
> God I hope they don’t ask you for any map ideas.
What was wrong with Breakpoint and Highlands?
They were great BTB maps, Highlands followed the 2 base formula to a T and Breakpoint was a perfect example of a ring level. It was easily the best Invasion map.
Hope once the community gets some forge maps into matchmaking we’ll start seeing some smaller maps
Tsk tsk.
I watched igns review. It brought up some good memories. It also is flawed but I digress. Lets dive deep into this shall we?
You have to understand that a map by itself is boring layers of “skins”, “textures”, and the occasional bloc tag for scenery.
So what else encompasses a map?
Well there are 2 main sub groups in my opinion “things that spawn on the map” and things that effect gameplay.
Well what spawns on the map?
Depending on which halo health, weapons, vehicles, power ups and in some cases interactive objects.
So in this subgroup what makes a good map?
In my opinion maps that are consistently replay able encompass similiar traits.
Such as:
Limited power weapon spawns (generally snipe at each base, rockets or similiar central)
Power ups as pickups ( this promotes map movement and discourages camping/ stalemates)
Vehicles (these can provide variety to strategies and satisfy that overwhelming desire to push for the flag or the like).
Interactive objects (similiar to vehicles these provide strategies and changing tactics to the game encouraging the player to look at a scenario differently ) unfortunately since halo 2 there has been a lack of interactive objects, Zanzibar being my primary example (dropping bridge, opening gate) allow you to approach the situation differently.
What out of that subgroup makes maps play bad:
Power ups / AAs on spawn
Too many power weapons
Vehicles nulled via too many power weapons
No interactive objects to make the map play well.
In my second subgroup you have the actual core game mechanics that make a map play well.
Good maps incorporate:
Balanced sandbox
A good, useful but not op sidearm (HCE pistol)
Fast default speed with or without sprint
Weapons on map, on timers.
Different weapons sets for different maps: having a big sandbox is not bad but you should not showcase every weapon on each. This leads to chaos. Think if midship or warlock had dmr starts :0.
A reason to push, or map movement.
Fast kill times
Respawn timers
Etc
Mechanics in h4 that makes maps appear worse:
Flinch
AAs on spawn (camo, pc, jet pack)
Motion tracker is ridiculous
Too many power weapons at unknown intervals
General map design and flow.
Now with that being said halo 4 has many good maps that are tarnished by the mechanics of the game, exile being one. Another worthy note is that for every decent map you will make ten crappy ones.
My assessment of previous halo maps:
I can’t put them in a top ten because I simply loved too many but I can put why I remember them. I will note that I think the first 2 halos had better maps than the rest of the series due to their replay ability, balance, creativity, and fun factor.
For team slayer 4v4:
Chill out: this is the definition of great map design. It flows so well. You have a reason to go into or control each room and there is no dead space. It plays well in all gametypes but set the standard for 4v4.
Battle creek/ beaver creek: one of the only good outside 4v4 maps. A very iconic halo map for 4 v 4 , ball rumple pit, 1v1 and koth.
Wizard/ warlock/ sanctuary: hard to imagine competive halo without these two.
Derelict: yet another good example.
Hang em high: a cult following of its own with great lines of sight and ample cover. Played 4v4, FFA and ball very well.
Turf was an honorable mention here.
1v1
Midship: this map was the perfect size and balance for a good 1v1.
2 flag/ btb:
Blood gulch: the most played and iconic map in halo ever bar none.
Sidewinder: though its siblings weren’t as repeatable as Valhalla the original sidewinder was a great map.
Waterworks: assault on this map was amazing.
1 flag/ 1 bomb:
Zanzibar: because you were able to change tactics and map flow.
Headlong: so much interactivity without pressing buttons.
Ivory tower: smaller but such a good map, swat was fun as well.
Ascension: another premier example
Relic: very fun
Quirky fun maps:
Infinity: race gametypes
Prisoner: rockets
Chiron: anything
Boarding action: sniper flag
There are many more but every map on halo ce or 2 was decent. Can we say that about the last few games?
Sure H4 raised the bar compared to reach or 3 but that bar was so low a cripple could hurdle it.
I enjoy Dominion over Big Team because Slayer has become a humiliating campfest. Infinity slayer is fine on the smaller maps such as Haven. On larger maps you do not need to move at all and you collect power weapons at your feet after scoring a few points. Camp with a DMR, bam, then you get a Sniper Rifle to aid your quest of camping, while being 30 seconds away from any enemy in a position to challenge you. I have done this, it works, and now I am bored with the strategy.
Ragnarock in my opinion has been ruined in all games modes other than King of the Hill… and in my opininion King of the Hill has been ruined because kids have nothing to play for except K/D and Commendation progression. KotH playlist is now being played with the primary objective of kills and secondary objective of winning the game.
This game is in urgent need of a rank system so you can by pass these types of gamers or at least encourage them to play the game correctly.
FFA Throwback had potential to be a great game type but suffered from the missing win to rank-up to show your skill incentive.
The first map pack should have included at least one classic remake such as The Pit.
I quite enjoy the Halo 4 launch maps, although as Halo has gotten more graphically impressive, the maps have gotten more cluttered and bland.
Cluttered and bland - that’s the current design ethic in a nutshell.
What’s the difference between Ragnarok and every other Halo 4 map? Ragnarok is blue skies, rolling hills, and space. Every other map is full of debris, awkward geometry and broken lines of sight.
I’d really like upcoming map packs to get back to the clean, airy play spaces we’ve come to expect from Halo. Blood Gulch, Sidewinder, that big snowy map in Halo 3, Ridgeline. Give us maps that are big enough to not only support vehicles but also give us enough room to drive them more than a few feet in any given direction (the poor old Wraith in Vortex is completely hamstrung).
On the flip side, I’d also like one or two more good, tight, uncluttered 4v4 maps suitable for SWAT and CTF.
It’s these mid-sized maps like Complex that I’m sick of. Too big for 4v4, too small for 8v8, and an awkward mix of corridors and long lines of sight that discourage movement.
Haven is by far H4’s variant of the Pit and Ragnorak is Valhalla/Coag/Hemorrhage but I checked your game history, as I do anyone who claims to be a victim of over-played maps. So far, only Haven could be considered overplayed since the weighting change 2 weeks ago. Before that, yes Ragnorak got a bit of overplay.
Right now everyone’s history shows a healthy mixup of everything, it’s easy to catch the rhetoric spewers because of it.
As for IGN’s best maps of all time, that’s looking back on over 2 years+ in gametime and DLC for 3 of the 4 titles. Comparing them to H4’s maps that haven’t had the same runtime, or DLC isn’t being unfair, it’s just being non-comparative.
I agree whole heartily. These multiplayer maps on a balance, and architectural standpoint are a nightmare. Graphics doesn’t mean everything. The symmetrical maps are designed for sheer balance, but have a completely lackluster feel to them. To even go beyond the point, there aren’t many of them to start out with. And they throw in a non-original map, Valhalla to boot. I am not saying Valhalla is bad, but it is about the only map I get to play, because no one will vote for anything else. And after playing every single map, multiple times each the map design just feels so flat, and uninspired. The lack of a decent number of maps wouldn’t be so devastating if they all felt amazing on a equal level. This is such a shame.
Armor Abilities have dramatically changed the way maps are made now. Blame the game designers’ choice for being able to use Jet Pack, et al., for the poor maps we have.
I don’t understand why they refuse to rehash the same maps from past halo games (or at least forge them and add them in).
Seriously, I would welcome the opportunity to play just about every Halo 2 map and a select few from 3/Reach.
I think Haven and Solace have that very classic Halo feel. I instantly fell in love with both of 'em. I’d like to see more maps that feel like them. Like Narrows and Construct. I like all Forerunner themed maps.
Adrift and Complex are by far my least favourite maps. Adrift just has that super boring look, it might be great if it was a Forerunner or Covenant structure. And Complex is just so broken. Man… the DMR camping and the spawn killing… especially in SWAT. That’s gotta be my least fav map in the game. Vortex is also kind of dull. Or maybe I’ve just had bad matches in it.
The rest are at least decent, some of them can be awesome from time to time.
EDIT: Most of the time it’s not the maps themselves that are bad, it’s other stuff that’s making them feel bad. Like the OP DMR and the fact that vehicles are often rendered useless because everyone’s got plasma pistols and nades.
BTB maps that go in a circle take little thought… Exile, Meltdown, Vortex
Why do the new maps have such a dark, bland look? That’s not the kind of stuff we saw in the campaign. We saw lush forests and bright open spaces. And what was indoor was cool forerunner stuff. Need maps bases off that kind of stuff.
all the maps are good in their own way. all of them are original but haven,exile,longbow,ragnarok are always chosen not because they are excellent maps but also because of community choice. the community loves these maps more than most but that doesnt mean the other maps arent good. they are just not chosen by the community
> Terminal
> Relic
> Warlock
> Lockout
> Guardian
> Construct
> Turf
> Midship
These.