Originally, I was going to talk specifically about HCE maps, but then thought it would be better to leave discussion open to all the Halo games. So, diving right in, I have plenty of gripes regarding certain CE multiplayer maps. Some maps practically encourage 1 sided games where one team is left to be mercilessly spawn killed the whole game. Among balanced teams, this isn’t as much of an issue, but everyone knows that matchmaking doesn’t always work that way, especially in social playlists.
The two biggest offenders in my opinion are Hang’em High and Derelict. Spawns are a big culprit, but there are also issues with the map design.
In Hang’em High, there is the corner opposite red base that leads to no where, and teams can get stuck spawning in that area. Adding a portal in that corner that ported you up into or near the shotgun tunnel would force teams to watch their back more often and provide an escape from the rain of fire from above when teams are trapped there.
In Derelict, there are literally only 2 ways to get on the top level aside from getting a lucky spawn, the portals. However, the portals can be a chore to get to when a team has complete control of top middle and games often end in a 1-sided blood bath. I think removing the overshield and adding a lift (they don’t exist in CE) or a portal to the top middle from bottom middle would even the playing field and make it much more difficult to steam roll players.
The other issue I have with CE multiplayer maps is that the sniper rifle, an obvious power weapon, is treated like a regular weapon on many maps. It has more than one spawn location and quick respawn times make it possible for players to run around entire games with it. That should not be. If it only spawned in one location and every 60 seconds like the rocket launcher it again would create or more even playing experience imo.
Wizard is another problematic map with OS and invis everywhere, but that is literally the point of the map. Thus removing the power ups would also remove the spirit of the map.
So that is all I have right now. There may be other maps in CE or maps in other halo games that people would love to have changes made to. What would you fix or change?
On Hang Em High, I would definitely be for adding a ladder where shotgun tunnel meets back wall.
On Derelict, I think all or most spawns on bottom with no immediate cover should be removed. There are just way too many and it is brutal when a team controls the top. Swapping OS and health pack could help too. Or maybe Camo and health pack to provide some cover to help get up top.
On Damnation, possibly swapping Plasma Rifle and Sniper. It would give a reason to visit the worst spot on the map and limit the sniper from being so readily available when pushing green room from tunnel.
There have been discussions about improving the issues around derelict. I believe it was insidious who made a version of derelict that had swapped camo and bottom mid health pack, and put rockets on a 2 minute timer. BUT there is simply no consensus on wether to modify the original maps at all. It’s a slippery slope, because once you start modifying stuff, then eventually some dumb -Yoink- will get added in (like the flamethrower…). We start with moving camo on derelict, and the next thing you know, H3 players have gotten a sword added to prisoner. It’s best to master the OG maps and also push for community made maps like downrush, which are careful to not having any immediate disadvantages based on initial spawns.
I hear your issues with Hang Em, but I can promise you that getting stuck at red is a fault of the players stuck at red. I’ve played this game since release and quickly learned that it’s better to just run directly out from red shotgun than to try to sit back and escape to red tower. There are random spawns pretty close to the front of red shotgun, just run straight to the trench. You may or may not take a death doing this, but it’s better than trapping yourself. Hang Em does occasionally get complaints, but it’s due to the number of random spawns, not due to the location of spawn points themselves. You and your teammates need to familiarize yourself with random spawns and also forced spawns (such as giving your partner a spawn at blue pistol). You’ll never be successful at HH without this knowledge. Check out www.halospawns.com
As far as the sniper goes, that’s an MCC issue, one that’s been brought up a lot by me. The sniper in OG halo is hard to use. In MCC it’s WAY too easy. It may be hitboxes or something to do with character and weapon cameras being synced, maybe even the issues with netcode. Regardless this change has drastically changed how the game plays. Situations where running around with a snipe got you destroyed are now among the best plays you can make. If the sniper worked as it did on the original, it would not be a power weapon at all. Also added to this is shot registration in general. If your pistol shot doesn’t register, the guy sniping doesn’t have to unzoom with his upgraded MCC sniper, making the issue even worse. This is a severe issue that’s continuously overlooked.
Point being… Only a very VERY select handful of Halo gods can exclusively run around with a snipe on OG. Everyone and their brother seems to be able to do it on MCC. So the issue of MCC not playing like OG needs to be fixed and then your complaints will be addressed.
Well I think there is a greater chance of implementing the small tweaks I suggested above rather than a request for an entirely new map from the mod community. I’d love to get Downrush in, but baby steps, and the changes above would greatly improve game play. I think it is pretty universally accepted that the Derelict top power and heavily weighted bottom spawns ruin all chance of balance. We are offering small suggestions that could fix that. I don’t see how that leads to some random request for a sword on Prisoner. As far as Hang Em, it’s more than getting stuck at red. A ladder at blue pistol would allow another attack vector as only being able to push from the two ramps is a huge disadvantage.
Unless you are against these changes from a game-play perspective, you should let the community rally for changes that make the game better.
Legitimately 100% of the OG community would be against the changes you guys suggest for HH. There’s no need for another angle of attack at top blue, there’s nothing up there. It’s a good position, but it has no weapons, no power ups. You go get the rockets and stuff, and then go to top blue. I truly don’t mean it offensively, but you guys just need to improve your HH play. I personally need to improve my derelict play to overcome the challenges on that map. The best players don’t get locked on bottom on dere, but sometimes I do.
The thing about small changes to the map is that it opens the door for far far too much controversy. Good suggestions have been made for derelict, such as insidious version, or Hard Ways suggestion to move camo forward to require only one nade instead of two. I personally think these suggestions are both substantial improvements. But the point isn’t improvements, it’s that people already complain about stuff in CE that doesn’t need to be fixed. It’s about introducing too much controversy. Halo 1 neutral host edition has AMAZING features, yet there have been a few people who refuse to play it because it’s just not OG. H1 players are picky (which has kind of been a good thing), and I am telling you that even if Ogre 2 said that a geometry change was needed, people would flip their -Yoink-.
Push for the new maps, and try to improve on the ones y’all aren’t fond of… That’s legitimately the best way forward for everyone. Adding a ladder on HH would be too controversial. If you don’t believe me, go into the H1 hub and see what people say about that, seriously.
Also… You can nade up to the walkway at blue from red pillars. People do it all of the time. Health pack waiting right in shotgun window.
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> There’s no need for another angle of attack at top blue, there’s nothing up there.
> …
> You can nade up to the walkway at blue from red pillars. People do it all of the time
Just pointing out one of the many times you contradict yourself. You also have a poor tendency to speak in absolutes. You and your discord are not the sole voice of H1. They can post here on waypoint, the official place for feedback, if they have an opinion on my suggestions.
I’ve played H1 since release, was an early adopter to hard-modding my xbox, countless hours on XBC, played at the first MLG tourney, etc. Then college, career, life happened so I didn’t continue to learn the minute nuances like take one step back and to the left to force a random out of red tower. Nor do I think those details should be required to “master” a map. I would actually vote for all spawn points to be shown during game play.
I do nade jump from red pillars, that doesn’t make a ladder invalid. That further pushes the point that it should exist. It bridges one of the weakest points of the map with one of the strongest. Sorry, but rockets are not that effective in Hang Em. Above shotgun tunnel is effective because you have a line of sight to most of the map with easy access to cover. Hang Em is a straight pistol battle and less about power up and rocket control like most other maps.
At the end of the day, the H1 purist argument for purity sake is weak. While H1 was the greatest mistake ever made, that doesn’t mean it cannot be improved. If you want to grow the community and get a wider player base interested in the game, stop calling esoteric knowledge skill, and start fighting for balance that makes smoother game play for all players. Adjusting the terrible Derelict bottom spawns and adding a ladder to blue pistol brings more balance to the maps. It doesn’t some how dumb down the game nor shorten the skill gap.
My two cents is on Blood Gulch. The quintessential BTB map, and it’s poorly balanced. I forget which side is which color, but the side that’s in more shade almost always loses, because the enemy has great high ground and cover to camp the base.
Wow I kind of like all the suggestions. I knew when starting the thread that most of this is all hypothetical, but wanted to voice my gripes. I realize/understand that any changes to maps will ultimately result in people being upset at said changes. However, in the social playlist, I’m usually playing solo. So you can’t just say that my teammates need to get better. that is really the whole point. With balanced teams my gripes are less of a problem. But playing with randoms makes it far too easy to be taken advantage of on certain maps. Fixing the sniper rifle from being so easy would to use would go a long way. Usually, once a good team has complete control of a map, there are sniper bullet trails flying left and right.
Finally whoever said that top of blue base on Hang’em High isn’t that great is way off base. The pistol alone is all a team needs to spawn camp another team to oblivion. Yeah rockets and invis are at the bottom, but good luck getting to them when you die instantly upon spawning.