Idk if it's been discussed.

As far as loadouts go for halo 5 goes. I think if the DMR and LR have to be in MP they should be on the map.

I think we could replace the carbine and the roles of those weapons with the needle rifle from reach. It’s not nearly as good as a DMR or LR at range but it has more of a range then a BR. Plus it’s full auto setting would make it unique enough to replace the carbines ROF that it brings to the table for uniqueness.

Thoughts?

Neither of the weapons is fundamentally too powerful to be a starting weapon. The general problem with the precision weapons in Halo 4 was that the aiming was too assisted. The red reticle range, the reticle magnetism (a.k.a. aim assist, a.k.a. sticky reticle), probably the bullet magnetism too, were all too high. If the ease of aim was to be fixed, those weapons would be completely viable starting weapons.

> Neither of the weapons is fundamentally too powerful to be a starting weapon. The general problem with the precision weapons in Halo 4 was that the aiming was too assisted. The red reticle range, the reticle magnetism (a.k.a. aim assist, a.k.a. sticky reticle), probably the bullet magnetism too, were all too high. If the ease of aim was to be fixed, those weapons would be completely viable starting weapons.

Meh, we’ve seen similar changes in magnetism (the sniper rifle between Halo 2 and Halo 3) but they haven’t done enough to significantly rebalance long range precision weapons because the issue goes a little deeper, into the core mechanics of the game. Look at how obscenely open our maps are, look at how easily you can control player movement given that aspect alone and any one of our long range weapons (which can kill quickly). The gun that can shoot farther will tend to be more powerful (ie. the most used) simply in that it can better leverage a significant point of ill-balance in the core setup of the game (or perhaps better leverage a “core facet of Halo’s distinct style of combat” depending on where you set your standards, in or out of this franchise.)

If you make the DMR/LR harder to use by toning down aim assist you may reduce the oppression caused by these few guns but that will be heavily buffered against by the player’s ability to adapt to that change (ex. Halo 2->Halo 3 sniper.) What we need is a significant rebalance of long range versus short range combat.

Yes this topic has been discussed, ALOT. Lol

> Neither of the weapons is fundamentally too powerful to be a starting weapon. The general problem with the precision weapons in Halo 4 was that the aiming was too assisted. The red reticle range, the reticle magnetism (a.k.a. aim assist, a.k.a. sticky reticle), probably the bullet magnetism too, were all too high. If the ease of aim was to be fixed, those weapons would be completely viable starting weapons.

I disagree. Even though you would reduce aim assist, and bullet magnetism, players would still be able to hit at the same rate they are now, it would just make it harder for some …

The problem lies in the range of the weapon.

> As far as loadouts go for halo 5 goes. I think if the DMR and LR have to be in MP they should be on the map.
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> I think we could replace the carbine and the roles of those weapons with the needle rifle from reach. It’s not nearly as good as a DMR or LR at range but it has more of a range then a BR. Plus it’s full auto setting would make it unique enough to replace the carbines ROF that it brings to the table for uniqueness.
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> Thoughts?

What makes the Needle rifle so special? why suddenly replace a fan favourite? if you want the needle rifle, both CC and NR should be in game,

as for aim assist, ghosts driving infront of the gut I am trying to kill and changing my target really annoys me

> Neither of the weapons is fundamentally too powerful to be a starting weapon. The general problem with the precision weapons in Halo 4 was that the aiming was too assisted. The red reticle range, the reticle magnetism (a.k.a. aim assist, a.k.a. sticky reticle), probably the bullet magnetism too, were all too high. If the ease of aim was to be fixed, those weapons would be completely viable starting weapons.

As Duncan Idaho 11 and xboxdigger 94 have pointed out,

The problem with the DMR isn’t its aim assist as much as its range. We have huge and wide open maps that are crippled by people sitting back and DMRing. People don’t want to move because they don’t have to and people are apprehensive to move because of the high probability of getting pinged by a long range weapon.

DMR and LR should be a map pickup no question.

> > Neither of the weapons is fundamentally too powerful to be a starting weapon. The general problem with the precision weapons in Halo 4 was that the aiming was too assisted. The red reticle range, the reticle magnetism (a.k.a. aim assist, a.k.a. sticky reticle), probably the bullet magnetism too, were all too high. If the ease of aim was to be fixed, those weapons would be completely viable starting weapons.
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> I disagree. Even though you would reduce aim assist, and bullet magnetism, players would still be able to hit at the same rate they are now, it would just make it harder for some …
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> The problem lies in the range of the weapon.

Why do you think he states the possibility of the red reticle range also being the problem?

> > > Neither of the weapons is fundamentally too powerful to be a starting weapon. The general problem with the precision weapons in Halo 4 was that the aiming was too assisted. The red reticle range, the reticle magnetism (a.k.a. aim assist, a.k.a. sticky reticle), probably the bullet magnetism too, were all too high. If the ease of aim was to be fixed, those weapons would be completely viable starting weapons.
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> > I disagree. Even though you would reduce aim assist, and bullet magnetism, players would still be able to hit at the same rate they are now, it would just make it harder for some …
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> > The problem lies in the range of the weapon.
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> Why do you think he states the possibility of the red reticle range also being the problem?

Shortening the range of the red reticule won’t hinder the range of the bullets. It would still be a viable weapon at range for many players, especially since the DMR is hit-scan.

Many players can easily aim with the BR outside of it’s red reticule range, and what really hinders the bullets in hitting a certain player is the spread and projectile speed of the weapon.

After lessening the aim-assist, magnetism and shortening the red-reticule range you have to either make it a slow-projectile weapon, add spread after a certain range, or make bullets disappear at a certain range to cripple the players ability to hit at long range.

Then you have a DMR viable as a loadout weapon, in reality a one 1-shot BR.

> > > > Neither of the weapons is fundamentally too powerful to be a starting weapon. The general problem with the precision weapons in Halo 4 was that the aiming was too assisted. The red reticle range, the reticle magnetism (a.k.a. aim assist, a.k.a. sticky reticle), probably the bullet magnetism too, were all too high. If the ease of aim was to be fixed, those weapons would be completely viable starting weapons.
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> > > I disagree. Even though you would reduce aim assist, and bullet magnetism, players would still be able to hit at the same rate they are now, it would just make it harder for some …
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> > > The problem lies in the range of the weapon.
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> > Why do you think he states the possibility of the red reticle range also being the problem?
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> Shortening the range of the red reticule won’t hinder the range of the bullets. It would still be a viable weapon at range for many players, especially since the DMR is hit-scan.
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> Many players can easily aim with the BR outside of it’s red reticule range, and what really hinders the bullets in hitting a certain player is the spread and projectile speed of the weapon.
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> After lessening the aim-assist, magnetism and shortening the red-reticule range you have to either make it a slow-projectile weapon, add spread after a certain range, or make bullets disappear at a certain range to cripple the players ability to hit at long range.
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> Then you have a DMR viable as a loadout weapon, in reality a one 1-shot BR.

Well then according to your logic, there really isn’t much of a problem with range if weapons like the BR can still land good shots outside of their red reticle range. Especially when the BR already controls close/medium range and leaves the DMR to control longer ranges.

If you ask me, range isn’t the issue, it’s the aim assist and hitscan. The only reason players are able to cross map effectively is because the weapons in Halo 4 make it far easier to kill. If you make the weapons require more skill to use, then you’ll see less cross mapping with long range weapons because players will have to take the time to master it effectively and obviously not everyone would have the time or interest to do so.

> > > > > Neither of the weapons is fundamentally too powerful to be a starting weapon. The general problem with the precision weapons in Halo 4 was that the aiming was too assisted. The red reticle range, the reticle magnetism (a.k.a. aim assist, a.k.a. sticky reticle), probably the bullet magnetism too, were all too high. If the ease of aim was to be fixed, those weapons would be completely viable starting weapons.
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> > > > I disagree. Even though you would reduce aim assist, and bullet magnetism, players would still be able to hit at the same rate they are now, it would just make it harder for some …
> > > >
> > > > The problem lies in the range of the weapon.
> > >
> > > Why do you think he states the possibility of the red reticle range also being the problem?
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> > Shortening the range of the red reticule won’t hinder the range of the bullets. It would still be a viable weapon at range for many players, especially since the DMR is hit-scan.
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> > Many players can easily aim with the BR outside of it’s red reticule range, and what really hinders the bullets in hitting a certain player is the spread and projectile speed of the weapon.
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> > After lessening the aim-assist, magnetism and shortening the red-reticule range you have to either make it a slow-projectile weapon, add spread after a certain range, or make bullets disappear at a certain range to cripple the players ability to hit at long range.
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> > Then you have a DMR viable as a loadout weapon, in reality a one 1-shot BR.
>
> Well then according to your logic, there really isn’t much of a problem with range if weapons like the BR can still land good shots outside of their red reticle range. Especially when the BR already controls close/medium range and leaves the DMR to control longer ranges.
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> If you ask me, range isn’t the issue, it’s the aim assist and hitscan. The only reason players are able to cross map effectively is because the weapons in Halo 4 make it far easier to kill. If you make the weapons require more skill to use, then you’ll see less cross mapping with long range weapons because players will have to take the time to master it effectively and obviously not everyone would have the time or interest to do so.

The BR is balanced in that it isn’t pinpoint accurate (it has bullet spread that is more noticeable at longer ranges, which he pointed out). The DMR isn’t hampered in effectiveness by such inconsistencies, because it is designed to be a long-ranged rifle, and that’s fine. The thing is, a long-ranged rifle doesn’t have much place as a spawn-in weapon option IMO. It cripples map movement by allowing anyone and everyone the option to cross-map DMR fire at enemies. Giving the DMR limiting factors like the BR’s would lessen/remove it from its intended role as a predominantly long-ranged weapon, and would essentially leave us with a semi-auto BR.

On the other hand, if the DMR were placed on-map, it could remain an effective long-ranged weapon (just as the Sniper is) without interfering with map movement and monopolizing combat, due to the limited number of DMRs on the map at any given time (and therefore, limited ammo as well).

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I’d be ready to argue that if there was no aim assistance beyond a certain distance, few people would be able to land shots effectively. Then if you removed hitscan and I can guarantee that everything that makes the DMR what it is in Halo 4 would be gone. Aim assistance is the single biggest factor in the apparent power of any precision weapon in Halo. By tweaking those factors alone, you can go anywhere between the Halo 4 Beam Rifle and a weapon that is completely useless.

What we need is a precision weapon that is ultimately very difficult to use at long range, but still has that potential to be effective at theoretically any range. The DMR is only a problem when I can five-shot someone from the other side of the map, not so much if I could only hit three out of five of the shots.

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> I’d be ready to argue that if there was no aim assistance beyond a certain distance, few people would be able to land shots effectively. Then if you removed hitscan and I can guarantee that everything that makes the DMR what it is in Halo 4 would be gone. Aim assistance is the single biggest factor in the apparent power of any precision weapon in Halo. By tweaking those factors alone, you can go anywhere between the Halo 4 Beam Rifle and a weapon that is completely useless.
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> What we need is a precision weapon that is ultimately very difficult to use at long range, but still has that potential to be effective at theoretically any range. <mark>The DMR is only a problem when I can five-shot someone from the other side of the map, not so much if I could only hit three out of five of the shots.</mark>

It can still be perceived as a problem, because the player on the other side of the map may not have a long-ranged rifle. In that sense, allowing players the option for a long-ranged precision rifle penalizes you for not choosing it on larger maps (or ones with long lines-of-sight).

Also, making a weapon more difficult to use at a distance through RRR reduction or weakened aim-assist makes it where the weapon is arguably easier/better to use at closer-than-long ranges.

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> <mark>I’d be ready to argue that if there was no aim assistance beyond a certain distance, few people would be able to land shots effectively. Then if you removed hitscan and I can guarantee that everything that makes the DMR what it is in Halo 4 would be gone. Aim assistance is the single biggest factor in the apparent power of any precision weapon in Halo. By tweaking those factors alone, you can go anywhere between the Halo 4 Beam Rifle and a weapon that is completely useless.</mark>
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> What we need is a precision weapon that is ultimately very difficult to use at long range, but still has that potential to be effective at theoretically any range. The DMR is only a problem when I can five-shot someone from the other side of the map, not so much if I could only hit three out of five of the shots.

This is true, but only in close to middle combat. In long range combat where the problem with the DMR lies, aiming without aim-assist isn’t hard.

> It can still be perceived as a problem, because the player on the other side of the map may not have a long-ranged rifle. In that sense, allowing players the option for a long-ranged precision rifle penalizes you for not choosing it on larger maps (or ones with long lines-of-sight).

But isn’t a long ranged weapon the obvious weapon of choice for any large-sized map? Precision weapons are still the longest ranged spawn weapons in the game, so why should we pretend that limiting their range would change anything? Everyone has their chance to choose their weapon, and if they don’t choose a weapon that is optimal, it’s their own fault.

> Also, making a weapon more difficult to use at a distance through RRR reduction or weakened aim-assist makes it where the weapon is arguably easier/better to use at closer-than-long ranges.

Decreasing the aim assist of a weapon affects most at short range where the player is required to turn fast (and hence it’s easy to overcompensate for enemy movements). It has less effect the further you go, but on the other hand, there is bullet magnetism that has more significant effects at longer ranges. The changes are least drastic at mid-range, but they most certainly don’t make the weapon any easier to use.

> This is true, but only in close to middle combat. In long range combat where the problem with the DMR lies, aiming without aim-assist isn’t hard.

But aiming without bullet magnetism is. I can guarantee you that a weapon can be made unfairly difficult to use without decreasing its inherent accuracy. Merely the size of the reticle is enough to make pinpointing opponents at long range more difficult. You won’t need to take my word for it, but feel free to go and play Halo CEA with Eye-patch on. Then consider the fact that you only played against slow AI that is not strafing. If you still feel that aiming without any form of aim assistance at long range isn’t hard, then I may admit you might be onto something (because I think it’s hard, and I don’t really consider myself to be bad by any stretch of the imagination).

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> I’d be ready to argue that if there was no aim assistance beyond a certain distance, few people would be able to land shots effectively. Then if you removed hitscan and I can guarantee that everything that makes the DMR what it is in Halo 4 would be gone. Aim assistance is the single biggest factor in the apparent power of any precision weapon in Halo. By tweaking those factors alone, you can go anywhere between the Halo 4 Beam Rifle and a weapon that is completely useless.
>
> What we need is a precision weapon that is ultimately very difficult to use at long range, but still has that potential to be effective at theoretically any range. The DMR is only a problem when I can five-shot someone from the other side of the map, not so much if I could only hit three out of five of the shots.

But again that difficulty curve is relatively easy to climb. Look at the spread between aim-assist on the various Halo snipers. At the more generous end you have the Halo 2 sniper and on the most unforgiving you have the Halo 3. However despite that rather significant reversal they have just about the same effect on gameplay. They are both incredibly effective long range weapons that do A LOT to slow the game down by choking movement pathways in even the lowliest circles of the population. Or take a look at the difference between the DMR, NR, and Pistol in the Reach Beta compared to the full game. Despite the former having a headshot glitch that effectively toned down magnetism they were still the weapon class of choice. Perhaps there was just a little bit more room for automatics and variety weapons than in what shipped, but the gross imbalance was still there because despite being more finicky the weapons afforded the same basic opportunities in of their power, speed, possible range, and headshot sensitivity.

Humans are just far too adaptable for aim/hit assist modifications alone to fix long range combat. You also need some revisions to the power, clip/ammo setup, choice of scopes, and various mechanics up to and including the health system (adjustments that can’t be easily overridden with a little swat practice) to balance precision weapons appropriately to the maps, sandbox, and major mechanics of Halo. Otherwise we’re just going to be running around the same combat issues every FPS Halo game has had, namely that one class of standard weapon always dominates because it is carelessly set up to be inherentlysuperior.

> As far as loadouts go for halo 5 goes. I think if the DMR and LR have to be in MP they should be on the map.
>
> I think we could replace the carbine and the roles of those weapons with the needle rifle from reach. It’s not nearly as good as a DMR or LR at range but it has more of a range then a BR. Plus it’s full auto setting would make it unique enough to replace the carbines ROF that it brings to the table for uniqueness.
>
> Thoughts?

I think the DMR should be a pickup weapon. It could be 4-5 shot kill with a must faster kill time then is has now. The Needle rifle could then be the Covie equivalent of the DMR making it more powerful than the Carbine.