Idea regarding Spark at the end of Halo 3

The popular theory as to why Spark went against his purpose and the most logical thing to do when he stopped Johnson from firing 04v2 is usually said to be one of two things:

A. Spark was rampant, and he wasn’t thinking clearly. With all that occurred, all he wanted was another ring for himself and he really didn’t give a -Yoink- about protocol.

B. There is some sort of protocol that dictates a premature firing is unacceptable even if an infestation is at an extreme level.

A is generally thought to be the case considering the circumstances.

I have another idea though. Obviously, I don’t know exactly what happened, but what Spark said to John right before attacking him intrigues me:

“You are the child of my Makers. Inheritor of all they left behind. You are Forerunner! But this ring… is mine!”

…is it just me, or does that sentence structure make it seem like he was possibly, maybe under influence from the Gravemind? A being already established as omniscient that can communicate telepathically with people, AI and other flood forms. Could this be the cause for his irrational decision?

Spark is a Monitor of a Halo. His sole duty and purpose was to protect the ring at all costs. But saying he just wanted 04B for himself and didn’t care about protocol makes no sense. It is his protocol to protect and manage Installation 04.

Infestation be -Yoink!-, his duty is to protect the ring. Firing it prematurely destroyed it and caused the firing itself to malfunction as we know that life is still present on the Ark.

His rampancy was coming into play because his compartmentalized memories were seeping through. We also know he was not affected by the logic plague as Composed Souls can not be.

He’s also a composed being, which renders him immune to the logic plague I think. Otherwise why bother with prometheans?

Composed beings aren’t immune to the logic plague. Prometheans are a whole different discussion as far as the logic plague goes.

yeah he was just rampant and going nuts. remember bungies version of rampant wasnt just “they think themselves to death”. they get way more ticked and vengeful.

“Rampancy is an imported concept from Bungie’s previous series Marathon. In it, rampancy is an induced condition, not an inevitability of an AI’s lifecycle. It follows three stages, Melancholia, where the AI grows depressed about its limited state of existence, Anger, where the AI lashes out at those who oppressed it, and Jealousy, where the AI attempts to take over larger systems in order to make itself more powerful.”

they referenced it in halo minus the induced condition part but sadly never used it to its full potential.

i think that version is far more interesting than what 343 has done with it. i think rampant cortana with bungies rampancy would have made a far better story. just my 2 cents.

but anyhoo 343gs just went off rails and did his thing. he was not a happy camper.

You really don’t understand rampancy then do you?

The thinking yourself to death thing is like the end goal. As you progress, you become more and more irrational, striking out against your creators, and seeking power for your own.

“I’m your greatest achievement and you detest me!?”
-Cutscene, Composer, Halo 4
“Yes, they’re all mine! Now to - imprison them?”
-Gameplay, Shutdown, Halo 4

Also, Moa, where is it said that Composed Souls can be affected by the logic plague?

> The thinking yourself to death thing is like the end goal. As you progress, you become more and more irrational, striking out against your creators, and seeking power for your own.

except she never actually did that and thus why i said her story arc was not that good. she said a couple goofy things but never did anything.

> she said a couple goofy things but never did anything.

Maybe because she was fighting it?

“They’re mine! Now to - imprison them!?
-Gameplay, Shutdown, Halo 4

Here’s all the stuff you claim doesn’t happen now.

Sadness of her condition:

“I was put into service eight years ago. AIs deteriorate after seven, Chief.”
-Cutscene, Requiem, Halo 4

“It’s not alright. Nothing about it is alright.”
-Gameplay, Infinity, Halo 4

Anger:

“Like he imprisoned his Prometheans? Like Dr. Halsey imprisoned me?!
-Gameplay, Shutdown, Halo 4

“That’s the main defense console. My intervention is the prerequisite of success! Why should we save them? Insert me into the defense grid.”
-Gameplay, Composer, Halo 4

“I will not allow you to… leave! This! Planet!”
-Cutscene, Reclaimer, Halo 4

“You do your job and I’ll do mine, okay?!”
-Gameplay, Infinity, Halo 4

Jealousy:

They’re mine! Now to - imprison them!?”
-Gameplay, Shutdown, Halo 4

please show me where i claimed any of that did not happen. and btw your jealousy example is a stretch.

now as i said before, she said a couple things and never DID anything. she skipped right over the striking out against your creators and seeking power for your own part and went directly to thinking herself to death. that made it less interesting to me. she said a couple meanish things and that was it. period. with that being the end game as you put it why did they jump right to the end and skip the most interesting and dramatic parts? the rampancy was the most interesting part of the story and it was handled very very poorly. it would have been way more interesting if they saved the thinking herself to death bit for the last 10 minutes of the game and used the original rampancy that was used in marathon.

> please show me where i claimed any of that did not happen.

“i think that version is far more interesting than what 343 has done with it. i think rampant cortana with bungies rampancy would have made a far better story. just my 2 cents.”

> and btw your jealousy example is a stretch.

“Jealousy, where the AI attempts to take over larger systems in order to make itself more powerful.”

Sounds right based on the definition you gave.

> now as i said before, she said a couple things and never DID anything.

Looks at Reclaimer cutscene
Looks at end of Shutdown
Looks at her sadness of her inevitable fate
Looks at her anger towards Halsey, her creator

> she skipped right over the striking out against your creators and seeking power for your own part and went directly to thinking herself to death.

Yeah, because even Bungie followed the rules they set for another fictional universe.

Give me a source where Halo Rampancy follows the same progression as Marathon Rampancy.

Also, the anger, sadness, and jealousy is a result of thinking yourself to death. It’s a cause and effect, not something sequential.

> with that being the end game as you put it why did they jump right to the end and skip the most interesting and dramatic parts? the rampancy was the most interesting part of the story and it was handled very very poorly. it would have been way more interesting if they saved the thinking herself to death bit for the last 10 minutes of the game.

And yet again you show your lack of understanding of rampancy.

To put it bluntly, Halo’s rampancy is like Alzheimer’s, dementia, and MPD all mixed up into one swirling mess. What comes out of it may resemble what you described, but each AI will go through something different.

Also, it isn’t inevitable for a UNSC AI to fall into rampancy after 7 years. They are deleted in fear of going rampant at age 7, and for good reason too. Look at what Cortana did. She nearly got Chief killed and ruined their plans on multiple occasions in Halo 4.

> > please show me where i claimed any of that did not happen.
>
> “i think that version is far more interesting than what 343 has done with it. i think rampant cortana with bungies rampancy would have made a far better story. just my 2 cents.”
>
> where does this quote say she did not have mood swings?
>
>
> now as i said before, she said a couple things and never DID anything.

Looks at Reclaimer cutscene
Looks at end of Shutdown
Looks at her sadness of her inevitable fate
Looks at her anger towards Halsey, her creator

again she does nothing. she says mean things and does nothing.
how is feeling angry striking out at your creator? its not, its a mood swing.

> she skipped right over the striking out against your creators and seeking power for your own part and went directly to thinking herself to death.

Give me a source where Halo Rampancy follows the same progression as Marathon Rampancy.

i like how you first defended that it did and that she was fighting it and now you are stating they are nothing alike. you are the one who started saying it was. and fyi while they did not use it in halo they did reference it in dialogue so take that as you will. again i never said they did i just said bungies rampancy was better.

Also, the anger, sadness, and jealousy is a result of thinking yourself to death. It’s a cause and effect, not something sequential.

again i never said she didnt do any of that. i said they took out the most interesting part,and made this rampancy dull due to the lack of the lashing out at your creators and whatnot. please read what i write.

> with that being the end game as you put it why did they jump right to the end and skip the most interesting and dramatic parts? the rampancy was the most interesting part of the story and it was handled very very poorly. it would have been way more interesting if they saved the thinking herself to death bit for the last 10 minutes of the game.

And yet again you show your lack of understanding of rampancy.

To put it bluntly, Halo’s rampancy is like Alzheimer’s, dementia, and MPD all mixed up into one swirling mess. What comes out of it may resemble what you described, but each AI will go through something different.

i can agree with this for the most part but they still missed the boat on the lashing out at your creators and whatnot. it would have been better. thats a pretty big step and seeing as how 343gs had no issue killing people you can reasonably assume cortana should have done SOMETHING.

Also, it isn’t inevitable for a UNSC AI to fall into rampancy after 7 years. They are deleted in fear of going rampant at age 7, and for good reason too. Look at what Cortana did. She nearly got Chief killed and ruined their plans on multiple occasions in Halo 4.

when did i mention any of that?

This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not post comments that are discriminatory in nature.

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

Wow. Nevermind the question you two, if you’re just going to be -Yoink!- back and forth at each other over Bear canon then forget it. The logic plague? Well that’s all nice and everything that he threw down in writing something that was already apparent back then and just added more details he thought were necessary but that’s really missing the point. I don’t give a -Yoink- about the guy who ruined the Forerunner mysticism and an enormous chunk of Halo because of it.

I’m not saying as to whether or not what I stated for option A “makes sense”, this is just the most common explanation I hear. “Logic plague” (which would on a very fine level as detailed in Silentium be a retcon of The Gravemind/Flood’s ability to influence and communicate with others in the Bungie era) or just persuasion somehow I threw out the idea in the OP.

Also, I said you two but really it’s just one of you, who apparently thinks very highly of his/herself and used someone’s opinion on rampancy to demonstrate that they claimed certain things in Halo 4 did not happen when it never implied that at all.

sorry your thread got derailed op.

i like the theory but im thinking 343 gs was bat crap crazy and didnt want anyone messing with HIS ring lol. just my 2 cents.

> sorry your thread got derailed op.
>
> i like the theory but im thinking 343 gs was bat crap crazy and didnt want anyone messing with HIS ring lol. just my 2 cents.

I’m thinking he went (something) too, whatever it was. I’ve never needed a concrete explanation for why an AI, prone to rampancy, might go crazy. At the same time, I’m open to the idea that maybe Spark did try to kill Johnson and the Chief out of protocol. The reason though that this is so flawed is because he knew that at some point containment was necessary and with Johnson and the Chief dead, WHO THE -Yoink- IS GOING TO LIGHT THE RING? THE RECLAIMERS ARE DEAD.

So it seems most obvious that he just had some sort of Gollum complex. He expresses that a premature firing will destroy the Ark but it’s not until he realizes it will destroy that particular ring that we hear his tone of voice change drastically - it’s a replacement ring for the one that was HIS and he proclaims it is his. He probably wasn’t remotely concerned with “protocol dictates action” at that point. In fact, I’m pretty sure with what he said to Chief right before you kill him he’s acknowledging he does not care about anything but the ring. Whatever. Easy enough of an explanation, but this idea has always intrigued me because it almost seems too perfect that he spoke that way, just then, for the first time, at exactly the moment the Gravemind needed the Chief or Johnson dead the most.

> Wow. Nevermind the question you two, if you’re just going to be -Yoink!- back and forth at each other over Bear canon then forget it. The logic plague? Well that’s all nice and everything that he threw down in writing something that was already apparent back then and just added more details he thought were necessary but that’s really missing the point. <mark>I don’t give a Yoink! about the guy who ruined the Forerunner mysticism and an enormous chunk of Halo because of it.</mark>
>
> I’m not saying as to whether or not what I stated for option A “makes sense”, this is just the most common explanation I hear. “Logic plague” (which would on a very fine level as detailed in Silentium be a retcon of The Gravemind/Flood’s ability to influence and communicate with others in the Bungie era) or just persuasion somehow I threw out the idea in the OP.
>
> <mark>Also, I said you two but really it’s just one of you, who apparently thinks very highly of his/herself and used someone’s opinion on rampancy to demonstrate that they claimed certain things in Halo 4 did not happen when it never implied that at all.</mark>

The guy who expanded the Forerunners from a generic advanced alien that died to a complex and interesting society? And yes, the Forerunners’ mystery was taken away, for good reason, but the mystery still shrouded in the Precursors and the Flood is greater than ever.

The Logic Plague is how the Flood, specifically the Graveminds, infiltrate AIs. Attacking their very core “logic”, programming, to get them to push into a premature rampancy that locks them into a state of anger and hate towards their creaters, or whatever the Flood directs it at.
It took 43 years for the Primordial to turn Mendicant, who then lashed out at the Forerunners, saying that they’re a disease whose end has long been coming. Cortana was nearly turned in less than a month.

I’m pretty sure the prominent lore figure on several other sites has a right to think “highly of himself” in this situation. Having the will to transcribe the Rebirth Epilogue shows you have a bit of passion and ability in the lore.
But tuat isn’t important in this discussion.

Also, the jealousy part of rampancy:
“They’ll pair you with another AI. Maybe another Cortana model if Halsey lets them.”
“It won’t be me, you know that right?”

And as for Cortana lashing out, or doing things other than yelling weird things:
Halo 4: Forward Unto Dawn intro, Cortana contemplates letting the Chief die, suffer the same fate she is experiencing. After arguing with herself for a couple seconds she lashes out, tentacles of light stretching out from her avatar and impacting Chief’s cryopod as she tries to tell herself to stop.

When Cortana gives her “I will not allow you to leave this planet!” speech, she releases a wave of electricity across the holotable, causing sparks and damages.

Plus, the rampancy you (Zombie) keep referring to is Marathon’s rampancy, which Halo’s was inspired from. It is not said that they share the exact same traits, meaning descending through shifts of jealousy and anger and such.
Cortana clearly describes rampancy in Halo 4, just thinking yourself to death. Halsey described it as thinking so hard your lungs forget to breath. The cognitive processes divide and create fatal loops as the AI tries to process and keep everything it can, becoming so engrossed in self-preservation that it loses focus of its task and can cause unexpected harm to those it can influence.

But back on topic… I do think that Spark was rampant. He hasn’t had any major experience with a Gravemind thus far, unless he had a nice conversation off-screen.
The Anniversary Terminals show him starting to question the Librarian’s plan and her wisdom about these rings after a few thousand years. And after several more thousand he starts to feel alone and helpless. We see that charasteristic red glow of rampancy making its way into his eye. He started to do random tests around his installation… he was bored. Jettisoning entire sections of the ring’s ecosystem into space. He even planned to go on a field trip to a nearby star.

Then the Humans showed up. He was delighted, incredibly happy. Then the “Reclaimer” blew up his ring. Now he contemplated sending the Didact’s warriors after Humanity… which would be utter slaughter.

But yeah, he was descending into rampancy due to tens of thousands of years of being bored and alone. He calmed down a bit after losing his ring. Holding on to a “protocol” of helping the Chief. When his ring returned, he had his objective. And his rampancy returned.
He lashed out at Johnson and Chief, becoming engrossed in self-preservation and preservation of his ring, which he couldn’t see hinself losing again.

this is the last time im responding to any of this. it is increasingly clear no one here reads what i write so i will no longer waste my time.

> “Rampancy is an imported concept from Bungie’s previous series Marathon. In it, rampancy is an induced condition, not an inevitability of an AI’s lifecycle. It follows three stages, Melancholia, where the AI grows depressed about its limited state of existence, Anger, where the AI lashes out at those who oppressed it, and Jealousy, where the AI attempts to take over larger systems in order to make itself more powerful.”
>
> i think that version is far more interesting than what 343 has done with it. i think rampant cortana with bungies rampancy would have made a far better story. just my 2 cents.

here, we can see i simply stated that i like bungies version of rampancy better than 343s. that is literally all i have said. i never said it was the same or that it was in halo. i said it was better than 343. period.

> Here’s all the stuff you claim doesn’t happen now.
>
> stuff

again, clearly not reading what i wrote, as i never once claimed anything does not happen. if you look at his earlier post, he is the one that claims “As you progress, you become more and more irrational, striking out against your creators, and seeking power for your own.” i didnt even say that, he did. i simply said it would be better if that actually happened in halo 4.

> Plus, the rampancy you (Zombie) keep referring to is Marathon’s rampancy, which Halo’s was inspired from. It is not said that they share the exact same traits, meaning descending through shifts of jealousy and anger and such.
> Cortana clearly describes rampancy in Halo 4, just thinking yourself to death. Halsey described it as thinking so hard your lungs forget to breath. The cognitive processes divide and create fatal loops as the AI tries to process and keep everything it can, becoming so engrossed in self-preservation that it loses focus of its task and can cause unexpected harm to those it can influence.

as you can see i never said it was halos and actually said it was in fact from marathon and that i thought it was a better version than what we got from halo 4 and 343. the other guy who is so good at lore as you claim said all that. not me.

lets be done with this now.

i think spark was off his rocker big time. he was willing to do anything to any one to keep his precious. do we know if the gravemind can affect a composed mind? there seems to be people on either side of this. anyone know for sure?

> again, clearly not reading what i wrote, as i never once claimed anything does not happen. if you look at his earlier post, he is the one that claims “As you progress, you become more and more irrational, striking out against your creators, and seeking power for your own.” i didnt even say that, he did. i simply said it would be better if that actually happened in halo 4.
>
> as you can see i never said it was halos and actually said it was in fact from marathon and that i thought it was a better version than what we got from halo 4 and 343. the other guy who is so good at lore as you claim said all that. not me.

See, the problem here is that it seems you are blaming 343 for this change, while in fact Bungie has never followed the Marathon system anyways. Cortana’s rampancy in Halo 4 not 343 twisting some preset definition. What they did fit perfectly into what Bungie has shown rampancy to be.

Heck, in Contact Harvest rampancy causes two AIs to fall in love.

The flood’s only demonstrated manipulative ability in the Bungie era was the result of a 43 year conversation with the most advanced AI the forerunners had constructed. And it did this via logic.

It could talk to chief, and make his life sign readings do some funny things, but that’s about it.

Disregarding the books you don’t like OP shoots down your theory further as it pretty much means the gravemind would need a long conversation to turn 343 GS to its side. Meanwhile in game we see he’s very much on their side until they tell him what they plan to do. He seemed quite happy with the thought of fighting the flood, he just didn’t want to lose his ring again.

> this is the last time im responding to any of this. it is increasingly clear no one here reads what i write so i will no longer waste my time.
>
>
>
> > “Rampancy is an imported concept from Bungie’s previous series Marathon. In it, rampancy is an induced condition, not an inevitability of an AI’s lifecycle. It follows three stages, Melancholia, where the AI grows depressed about its limited state of existence, Anger, where the AI lashes out at those who oppressed it, and Jealousy, where the AI attempts to take over larger systems in order to make itself more powerful.”
> >
> > i think that version is far more interesting than what 343 has done with it. i think rampant cortana with bungies rampancy would have made a far better story. just my 2 cents.
>
> here, we can see i simply stated that i like bungies version of rampancy better than 343s. that is literally all i have said. i never said it was the same or that it was in halo. i said it was better than 343. period.
>
>
>
> > Here’s all the stuff you claim doesn’t happen now.
> >
> > stuff
>
> again, clearly not reading what i wrote, as i never once claimed anything does not happen. if you look at his earlier post, he is the one that claims “As you progress, you become more and more irrational, striking out against your creators, and seeking power for your own.” i didnt even say that, he did. i simply said it would be better if that actually happened in halo 4.
>
>
>
> > Plus, the rampancy you (Zombie) keep referring to is Marathon’s rampancy, which Halo’s was inspired from. It is not said that they share the exact same traits, meaning descending through shifts of jealousy and anger and such.
> > Cortana clearly describes rampancy in Halo 4, just thinking yourself to death. Halsey described it as thinking so hard your lungs forget to breath. The cognitive processes divide and create fatal loops as the AI tries to process and keep everything it can, becoming so engrossed in self-preservation that it loses focus of its task and can cause unexpected harm to those it can influence.
>
> as you can see i never said it was halos and actually said it was in fact from marathon and that i thought it was a better version than what we got from halo 4 and 343. the other guy who is so good at lore as you claim said all that. not me.
>
> lets be done with this now.
>
> i think spark was off his rocker big time. he was willing to do anything to any one to keep his precious. do we know if the gravemind can affect a composed mind? there seems to be people on either side of this. anyone know for sure?

We read what you said. Onyx quoted it, in fact.
But you see, you didn’t specify. You just said Bungie’s rampancy. Bungie has Marathon rampancy and Halo rampancy, and both are different. It was simply assumed you were referring to Halo, which is a good assumption considering the topic at hand.

And you said none of the striking out stuff happened.
She tried to kill John in Forward Unto Dawn. She caused a massive surge of energy to cycle through the holotable, causing sparks and drawing the attention of everyone on the bridge. She lashed out at Chief about doing jobs. She went into an angry fit and made Chief’s Lich crash.

She was “striking” out in all of those. Physically in the first two examples and verbally/emotionally in the others.

And on the subject of the Composer affecting the Logic Plague.

It depends on what specifically the Composer does differently to create AIs. Does it just copy the memories and other living patterns/characteristics of the victim, implementing them into an AI? We see Human memories stored in the Promethean Soul found on Requiem.

If that’s what it does, then is it truly all that different from Human AI creation? Scanning dead brains to be the programming passageways and such? Cortana was from a living brain, and she was still able to be tortured by the Logic Plague.

I don’t think the Composer would really do that much in terms of providing immunity from the Logic Plague.