I don’t see how a “Side” being shown right before you die counts. That is generally considered to be cowardly if you all of a sudden want to make changes and acknowledge your wrong just before you die.
> I don’t see how a “Side” being shown right before you die counts. That is generally considered to be cowardly if you all of a sudden want to make changes and acknowledge your wrong just before you die.
Not if they are choosing to die, rather than attempt to flee, as penance.
So do you all consider the Arbiter a straight villain as well for the monstrous things he did in service to the Covenant?
> So do you all consider the Arbiter a straight villain as well for the monstrous things he did in service to the Covenant?
What a terrible analogy.
The difference between the Master Builder and Thel, is that Faber broke his species moral code, and chose not to follow the Mantle.
The Arbiter grew up in his society doing what was acceptable and normal. The main difference is that in the eleventh hour, the Arbiter put aside his quarrel with humanity, and worked with them. Faber, he is the direct downfall of Forerunner civilization. Never willing to work with either Didact, and bolstering his ego so that he would be viewed as a hero who fought against the terrifying Flood, and bought the Librarian time to save all life from the Flood.
He was building hhimself up to be seen as a hero.
> > So do you all consider the Arbiter a straight villain as well for the monstrous things he did in service to the Covenant?
>
> What a terrible analogy.
>
> The difference between the Master Builder and Thel, is that Faber broke his species moral code, and chose not to follow the Mantle.
>
> The Arbiter grew up in his society doing what was acceptable and normal. The main difference is that in the eleventh hour, the Arbiter put aside his quarrel with humanity, and worked with them. Faber, he is the direct downfall of Forerunner civilization. Never willing to work with either Didact, and bolstering his ego so that he would be viewed as a hero who fought against the terrifying Flood, and bought the Librarian time to save all life from the Flood.
>
> He was building hhimself up to be seen as a hero.
The “direct downfall” of Forerunner civilization is more accurately the fault of those Forerunners who wiped out the Precursors 10 million years before. The belief in the Mantle itself arguably sealed the Forerunners’ doom, as the Librarian believed.
Arby’s “quarrel” with humanity involved complete genocide, which isn’t even normal by Covenant standards (if it was, they wouldn’t have member races)
A lot of Faber’s depraved actions were done simply to increase the wealth and power of the Builder caste, and hence his own power. That includes the butchery of Ancient Humanity. Additionally he chose to sanction this under no pressure from any authority or group.
Thel did what he did because he was religiously indoctrinated, especially in his younger years. Even in his older years where it could be said that his faith would be in decline, and where the possibility existed for him to suspect his actions as wrong and know of the possibility of a moral choice against the War, he is still under tremendous pressure from authority and peers. This sets him apart from Faber.
Thel also remains committed to peace and reconstruction, and working with Humans, months after Halo 3. We can’t be sure that Faber would stick with any supposed change of heart that he may have had at that time. Redemption is something that needs to be maintained, otherwise it becomes meaningless I think.
> Thel also remains committed to peace and reconstruction, and working with Humans, months after Halo 3. We can’t be sure that Faber would stick with any supposed change of heart that he may have had at that time. Redemption is something that needs to be maintained, otherwise it becomes meaningless I think.
We can’t be sure because he chose to die, going down with the twin ships of both his Ark and the Ecumene. That’s pretty final.
> The “direct downfall” of Forerunner civilization is more accurately the fault of those Forerunners who wiped out the Precursors 10 million years before.
No it isn’t seeing as they were clearly able to defend themselves from what they might have perceived as a threat. Faber learned of the flood and instead of making a true defense for it wanted some grand and glorious project that would secure his rates status, this was covered in cryptum. I don’t see how you are trying to avoid Faber being connected to the downfall by blaming those ancestors. IF the forerunner built the correct defenses (shield worlds) and didn’t oust the warrior rate they would have been able to push the flood back.
Those actions were the direct result of Faber not the forerunners 10 million years ago. The forerunners ten millions years ago were not responsible for the unnecessary de-evolving of humanity which had they not been could have aided in the war. It was covered in silentium that nobody supported that yet Faber did it anyway.
I still don’t see how we are going to condone genocide. I am trying my hardest not to make an analogy to show how stupid what you are saying is because i know i am going to get banned for it.
Yes, Faber went out looking good.
But redeeming himself from everything? I’m not so convinced.
Lets look at the last years of the Forerunners.
Faber brought all the remaining Forerunners to the Greater Ark, the only Ark the Flood know about, with only one defensive ring.
This caused the destruction of the rest of the Forerunners besides a few that escaped, because this was the Ark the Flood were already heading to. Omega Halo was ordered to purge Path Kethona, not the incoming wave of Star Roads and Flood ships.
Faber dropped the Ur-Didact, after capturing and interrogating him, into a Burn to die.
He used a Halo to surpress a rebellion of the San Shyuum, going completely against the purpose of the rings.
When the last Forerunner commanders were discussing their last strategies, Faber took the time to brag about capturing and nearly killing the Ur-Didact, discrediting him. Bragging that he is a better strategist than the Ur-Didact.
He took the time to brag about the Halos being the last hope, using an “I told you so” attitude.
When discussing Mendicant Bias he admitted it was his fault, but then went on to say the Didact takes blame for being a partial creator.
"The original Didact was wrong and I was right. He managed to brag and discredit the Ur-Didact while the Forerunner civilization comes to an end, making himself look great and heroic for an unexpected result.
He waits until the last minute to reveal the Lesser Ark, which he built secretly and possibly somewhat illegally, and still doesn’t give the IsoDidact the coordinates until the last minute.
Then he says its all the Warrior-Servants faults that everything has happened, for an act 10 Million years ago. Which makes the past Warriors in this meeting feel bad and makes him look without blame.
Then Faber also manages to tell a sob story, further making the Ur-Didact look bad.
Faber took infested ships inside his lines with inadequate decontamination.
The areas he defended suffered 5 times greater losses and retreats. His fleet of 500 returned with 20, yet still claims he is the best defender.
Then he admits that all his life he has been trying to grab power and make the Builders look best.
Only then did he finally understand what a crime against the Mantle was. And so he fired the ring and gave the others a chance to escape, going down with his Ark and the near last of Forerunner civilization.
He made mistakes up until the very end, and still managed to be a Yoink on the brink of destruction.
He did go down good, allowing escape and realizing all that he has done.
But to redeem everything? I don’t think so. He bragged that the Halos would have to be fired, killing everything. He discredited the Didact every chance he got while the Forerunners were trying to figure out who to follow.
Im still having a difficult time following the logic that the Master Builders last act was at all honorable.
I mean, he waited until the last minute to give the IsoDidact the location of the Lesser Ark, so much so that he ALMOST DIDNT MAKE IT. Chakas had to diverge from his orders to save the IsoDidact for crying out loud.
He also didnt buy anyone any time to escape. The “coucil” of strategists died on the Halo with him, and besides the IsoDidact and his ship full of humans, no one managed to escape before the battle began. The IsoDidact even commented about how miraculous it was that Offensive Bias managed to escape with any of his ships.
Youre also assuming that firing at Path Kethona was Fabers idea. Theres really no way of knowing if it was his idea or not, but even if it was, the end result is still the murder of the primitive Forerunners in that galaxy (who werent indexed, and wouldnt be reseeded). Yes, it wiped out any remaining Precursor constructs in that galaxy, but they technically didnt even know if any were left over there anyway, they were quite literally firing blind and hoping they werent just murdering more innocent people.
The only even remotely logical arguement that has been made is that Faber “went down with the ship”, which isnt even technically true, since we dont even know if thats the case. For all we know, Faber didnt know the ring would be destroyed upon activation (why would so many important people be standing around if they did?), so not even this idea holds water. And even if they did know the ring would be destroyed instantly, why would Faber run? The only place for him to go was the Lesser Ark, and once there he would have likely been imprisoned for all of his crimes by the IsoDidact or the Lifeworkers.
I really just dont see this point making any sense at all. Literally minutes before the firing of the Halo, as has been pointed out numerous times, the guy continues to run his mouth and act like he’s a big shot hero, and that the reason things turned out so bad was because of other people. Other people that HE forced out of the way and subverted the entire time.
Theres no arguement for honor, or character change, and especially not redemption here. The guy has always been self-serving, and theres no reason to believe that changed in the end.
> You’re literally just focusing on the before the stars line and ignoring the context of the entire sentence. “That most of what has been gathered comes from before there were stars.” What has been gathered. With space-time involved, that does not mean the gathering happened before the Bang. <mark>The Domain is located in space-time, as in the extra dimension that is not linear. If they gathered information from before the Bang, that doesn’t mean they had to actually had to be there because space-time is all-encompassing like that.</mark> Again, this is a case of you not understanding the book concepts and getting mad at me about it.
Could you explain these a bit more please?
My impression though is that you are saying that the Precursor somehow catalogued information that originated from before the Big Bang despite not being there themselves.
> > This reserve was wrapped in Precursor architecture, protected for many billions of years.
>
> If the reserve itself was Precursor it would be redundant to describe it as being wrapped and stored by Precursor architecture.
It gives the clear implication, from what we know of the Halo’s effects on Precursor structures, that when the Halo’s themselves fire, the Domain will undoubtedly be destroyed. The reserve is dependant on the surrounding Precursor architecture for continued existence. It is therefore logical that it was created by the Precursors.
> Yes, Faber went out looking good.
>
> But redeeming himself from everything? I’m not so convinced.
>
> …
>
>
> He made mistakes up until the very end, and still managed to be a Yoink on the brink of destruction.
> He did go down good, allowing escape and realizing all that he has done.
>
> But to redeem everything? I don’t think so. He bragged that the Halos would have to be fired, killing everything. He discredited the Didact every chance he got while the Forerunners were trying to figure out who to follow.
This is pretty much what I’ve been trying to say. Faber is not a good guy, and “redemption”, while debatable, seems too strong a word to describe his final change of heart. But his final moments show that he wanted to atone, and that he finally had reflected on all he’d done. And at that particular point, it’s good he was discrediting the Ur-Didact, who was clearly insane (though that is Faber’s fault).
And we can argue about whether the Shield Worlds would have worked or not, but the fact is they didn’t. Faber’s plan is what ultimately stopped the Flood
>
> The life-patterns and living wisdom of a hundred billion years.
The universe is 13.8 million years old.
Can you source again where it was saying Path kethona was the home system of the precursors? I don’t recall it saying that nor do i understand how they could have any home here if they are older than the universe and this was the latest galaxy to be seeded.
“Another home” does not translate to “Home galaxy”. So unless what you are posting says “Path Kethona was the Natal For the precursors” don’t bother.
You do understand that “old council” were the ones before the capital got destroyed right? which Faber controlled.
Didn’t Primordium take place on a Rouge halo ring teaming with Flood that was being controlled by the Primordial and a defective forerunner contender class AI?
How is killing trillions of lifeforms not considered genocide when it killed all life capable of infection in the galaxy?
Genocide-the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
Wasn’t the usage of the halo’s deliberate and systematic? Silientium covers how nearly all those recovered were brought to the grater ark which was destroyed and only an extreme few out of that were saved. The last chapter even has 343 talking about a race untouched by the forerunners or the flood sending out its first radio signal before they were destroyed.
> This is pretty much what I’ve been trying to say. Faber is not a good guy, and “redemption”, while debatable, seems too strong a word to describe his final change of heart. But his final moments show that he wanted to atone, and that he finally had reflected on all he’d done. And at that particular point, it’s good he was discrediting the Ur-Didact, who was clearly insane (though that is Faber’s fault).
>
> And we can argue about whether the Shield Worlds would have worked or not, but the fact is they didn’t. Faber’s plan is what ultimately stopped the Flood
The Shield Worlds were never given a chance.
By the time the IsoDidact actually had time to start putting them to use, more than half the galaxy was already a Burn.
They would have cost the galaxy a lot less life.
Faber’s Halos being the last and only hope was lucky. The rings were created with last resort in mind, but the Forerunners did nothing else to help defence before a last resort was needed. It was lucky that the rings actually nullified Neural Physics.
Everything else? The Builders and Faber were using the rings to secure their power and dominance in the Forerunner ecumene. If Faber had not been so blind, realizing that the Shield and the Sword were the best defence, instead of believing the Flood would be contained and the rings used for political power… a lot less life would’ve been destroyed.
He may be evil be he was made out to be a totall bad yoink… 