What I liked about Faber at the end is that he made it so he wasn’t going to be “crazy evil forerunner #2” in a later halo game.
Yes so me stating that he killed more innocent people somehow makes that entire post and my reasoning for not liking him based off that invalid? Do you want me to go back and change it to him de-evolving humans even after he knew they were only attacking because they were running away from the flood? Or are you going to find some way to wiggle out of that?
The point of that was he has always killed just to kill. Path kethona can be replaced by anything else and it would still have the point and meaning behind it.
Explain to me how that galaxy would be their home galaxy if they existed before the universe.
Um it doesn’t matter if that is “the only mention” since it is still a fact the forerunners had 3 million worlds. how many did you think they had? And yes that was from Cryptum.
The size doesn’t matter when you still have trillions of them weaving in and out of space time. From the way It was brought up you can infer that JanJur Qom wasn’t the first and only world to be quarantined. There could be a very dozen systems each having trillions of slipspace distortions. That goes along with the Trillions of ships the forerunners have moving around commercially and the few hundred thousand if not several millions of ships they have military wise.
You do understand that what happened with the precursors happened 10 million years ago and the forerunners were using different technologies then right? Not to mention they Hardly would have had acess to the domain and the relationship with slipspace/living time as they do now. I love how you are trying to get on me about this Path Kethona but you don’t even remember reading about the amount of worlds the forerunners have or how they were having issues with slispace. The slipspace debt was brought up in silientium when the librarian was traveling to Kethona and again later on in the book.
Why do you say “home” when the quote clearly says “another home”? Clearly they considered the refugee site as a home as would anybody when retreating to a place they find safe after their home has been taken from them.
No, I brought that up showing how he was always killing something. You are ripping the context out of that stament as if that is the only issue i have with him when it isn’t. The entire downfall of forerunner civilization is his fault.
I am not ignoring you evidence as i have commented on everything you brought up. You on the other hand twist and blatantly ignore whatever i bring up. Kethona isn’t relevant to the overall point i was trying to make. We can keep arguing over it if you want to.
yep, mhm.
> And what they learned across many billions of years they stored in this galaxy. We do not know where. The Gravemind tells us something impossible to understand-that most of what has been gathered comes from before there were stars. We do not believe in such a time, but the Mind insists … The life-patterns and living wisdom of a hundred billion years.
Currently the Universe is estimated to be 13.8 billion years old +/- a few million years.
That wasn’t the point which was the amount of ships they could have since you saw “no reason” as to them possibly having millions of ships.
You aren’t making sense with you post which is why i pretty much ignored it. There is nothing stating principles behind which ancient forerunners travel. There is no reason to assume they used the exact same method for slipspace travel (crystals) then as they did now. Ancient humans probably didn’t use the same method as forerunners nor did any space faring race. Technology is different with each age and race.
Or they leave a galaxy once a race is found to uphold the mantle. That is far more reasonable than trying to making our galaxy more important than it really is. The Extermination fleet shocked the librarian due to it’s size so clearly it was massive. Why do you say “multiple” when the precursors only inhabited two galaxies at the time?
So what are you saying with that halo bit? How did he save the galaxy if trillions+ were killed? you don’t seem to understand the concept that he was always killing creatures that had no idea of his existence.
> And what they learned across many billions of years they stored in this galaxy. We do not know where. The Gravemind tells us something impossible to understand-that most of what has been gathered comes from before there were stars. We do not believe in such a time, but the Mind insists … The life-patterns and living wisdom of a hundred billion years.
Read that again.
> And what they learned across many billions of years they stored in this galaxy. We do not know where. __The Gravemind tells us something impossible to understand-that most of what has been gathered comes from before there were stars. We do not believe in such a time, but the Mind insists … The life-patterns and living wisdom of a hundred billion years.
[/quote]
__
> > before there were stars. We do not believe in such a time, but the Mind insists …
> That is exactly what the quote means and exactly what it says.
> You aren’t even bothering to read what i am posting and are switching up my wording. I said the two galaxies the precursors invested in (This and Kethona) were not any special than the others because you kept insisting that these two galaxies were there homes. Which i retorted with that quote asking how can Kethona be their native home if they are older than the universe. You then say “that doesn’t mean they are older than the universe” and then hightail it back to an earlier point of the conversation to switch up something I said. You can easily go back and read what has been stated.
> I probably haven’t come off as consistent because you don’t even bother to read what i post. I am trying to off Kethona because that wasn’t a central point for me (even though you insist it was) yet you keep retreating to that. 3 times i have tried to drop it but your next reply always has that word in it, as will the one after this.
> Can you give a source saying the Ancient forerunners used the same tech? because you can’t then hush.Can you provide the exact quote where i randomly said the forerunners travel to other galaxies other than kethona? Because that doesn’t sound like something i would say because that didn’t happen. I just re-read the thread and it seems like you were the first one to bring it up
> > > Path kethona had more star roads than the explored regions of space. clearly they must have had quite the amount left in the galaxy seeing as they were everywhere.
> >
> > I (You)don’t see the Forerunners being able to muster multiple fleets of millions of ships to multiple systems. So nope, the book does not support that claim.
> I said Explored Regions of space I don’t see where you got multiple galaxies as I said space. I Meant “Galaxies” and not actual solar systems. The confusion might come from you not using the correct vocabulary to start with and then getting upset when i go off what you post.
> > But as Catalog I am aware that she has studied and favored one hundred and twenty-three technologically capable species across three million worlds within the explored regions of our galaxy.
> The quote has no relevance other than what is in bold because that is what i said. Did the use of “Space” instead of “Galaxy” throw you off? I don’t understand why anybody would instantly jump to the conclusion you did instead of assuming i meant this galaxy,which i did. So you are the one confusing yourself by making more out of what i say than i mean.
> Are you still ranting about Path Kethona? You are taking that quote out of complete context because it says nothing of the like.
> > we came to finish what we had started in the home galaxy:
> 1. They have no Home galaxy in our universe since they are before it.
> 2. Seeing as they have already seeded several galaxies before ours Kethona clearly isn’t it.
> 3.The quote I Linked earlier said Another home but you would rather completely ignore than in place of this?
> <strong>You are viciously twisting up words to support that Kethona was their home galaxy (when it wasn’t) After i have told you several times That i don’t care about it**. Are you this desperate to argue in order to prove an irrelevant point? If you need to twist up another’s wording and rip the context away from source material the point might be lost or not what you are trying to say in the first place.</strong>
> He is evil because the whole galaxy had to die because of his arrogance and neglect.I am going to keep it short and simple so you don’t twist my words up.
Honestly, the entire destruction of the Forerunner Ecumene and the deaths of every single creature in the galaxy can probably be placed squarely on the shoulders of Faber.
Prior to the release of the Primordial and its move onto installation 07, we have no mention of Precursor constructs aiding the Flood. Its entirely possible that the release and subsequent joining with the FLood that caused the Precursor Star Roads to activate and begin supporting the Flood.
If Faber didnt manipulate, assassinate and bribe politicians to get his way, and if he didnt force the Didact and by extension the Warrior-Servants into exile, and stifle the Shield World strategy, the Forerunner may well have been able to contain and defeat the Flood.
One supposed act of honor (it really wasnt even that, but whatever) hardly makes up for all the evil, dishonorable and idiotic things he did prior to and during the conflict with the Flood.
He didnt redeem himself.
He didnt become honorable in the end.
His little speech prior to firing the Halo is full of him being a pompous -Yoink-, pretty much blaming Bornstellar (IsoDidact) for the current situation, and bragging about how he roundhoused the UrDidact out the picture.
Seriously, did you guys even read the book or what?
> Honestly, the entire destruction of the Forerunner Ecumene and the deaths of every single creature in the galaxy can probably be placed squarely on the shoulders of Faber.
>
> Prior to the release of the Primordial and its move onto installation 07, we have no mention of Precursor constructs aiding the Flood. Its entirely possible that the release and subsequent joining with the FLood that caused the Precursor Star Roads to activate and begin supporting the Flood.
>
> If Faber didnt manipulate, assassinate and bribe politicians to get his way, and if he didnt force the Didact and by extension the Warrior-Servants into exile, and stifle the Shield World strategy, the Forerunner may well have been able to contain and defeat the Flood.
>
> One supposed act of honor (it really wasnt even that, but whatever) hardly makes up for all the evil, dishonorable and idiotic things he did prior to and during the conflict with the Flood.
>
> He didnt redeem himself.
>
> He didnt become honorable in the end.
>
> His little speech prior to firing the Halo is full of him being a pompous -Yoink!-, pretty much blaming Bornstellar (IsoDidact) for the current situation, and bragging about how he roundhoused the UrDidact out the picture.
>
> Seriously, did you guys even read the book or what?
-
The Flood are precursor, that’s why they were able to use their tech. All it took was was them reaching a critical mass where Key Minds developed (“key” as in unlocking). “It is entirely possible” isn’t evidence or argument. From what we’ve seen, the Primordial was always “one” with the Flood. However, Mendicant Bias’s betrayal was Faber’s fault, but even there it’s easy to understand his motives for sending the AI to interrogate the creature.
-
No one is saying it “makes up” for anything. We’re saying it adds to his character that he tried to atone in small part at the end, and makes him more than just a straight up villain.
-
What’s with the attitude? We read the book, and it is clear that Bear wrote the Master Builder to be more than a moustache-twirling villain
In the end he was a bady guy but not necessarily a bad guy…Remember when some people thought he was the ancient evil? Good ol times.
> > Honestly, the entire destruction of the Forerunner Ecumene and the deaths of every single creature in the galaxy can probably be placed squarely on the shoulders of Faber.
> >
> > Prior to the release of the Primordial and its move onto installation 07, we have no mention of Precursor constructs aiding the Flood. Its entirely possible that the release and subsequent joining with the FLood that caused the Precursor Star Roads to activate and begin supporting the Flood.
> >
> > If Faber didnt manipulate, assassinate and bribe politicians to get his way, and if he didnt force the Didact and by extension the Warrior-Servants into exile, and stifle the Shield World strategy, the Forerunner may well have been able to contain and defeat the Flood.
> >
> > One supposed act of honor (it really wasnt even that, but whatever) hardly makes up for all the evil, dishonorable and idiotic things he did prior to and during the conflict with the Flood.
> >
> > He didnt redeem himself.
> >
> > He didnt become honorable in the end.
> >
> > His little speech prior to firing the Halo is full of him being a pompous -Yoink!-, pretty much blaming Bornstellar (IsoDidact) for the current situation, and bragging about how he roundhoused the UrDidact out the picture.
> >
> > Seriously, did you guys even read the book or what?
>
> 1. The Flood are precursor, that’s why they were able to use their tech. All it took was was them reaching a critical mass where Key Minds developed (“key” as in unlocking). “It is entirely possible” isn’t evidence or argument. From what we’ve seen, the Primordial was always “one” with the Flood. However, Mendicant Bias’s betrayal was Faber’s fault, but even there it’s easy to understand his motives for sending the AI to interrogate the creature.
>
> 2. No one is saying it “makes up” for anything. We’re saying it adds to his character that he tried to atone in small part at the end, and makes him more than just a straight up villain.
>
> 3. What’s with the attitude? We read the book, and it is clear that Bear wrote the Master Builder to be more than a moustache-twirling villain
- Yet they didn’t decide to use all those technologies until after the demise of the precursor? His point makes more sense.
2.Which is mind boggling to us because of the amount of life forms that died and the fact he is the reason the flood were able to spread so far. He was bragging about how he was the “master strategist” while we learned that those systems he protected saw 5X more casualties than if they were left alone. Not to mention how he acts like a typical politician by trying to say charum hakkor was a planned event and all part of his grand master scheme.
I don’t see how that act in anyway Makes up (yes because that is exactly what you are saying even if it a little bit) for the genocide of humanity and other races in the galaxy.
- What???
> 1. The Flood are precursor, that’s why they were able to use their tech. All it took was was them reaching a critical mass where Key Minds developed (“key” as in unlocking). “It is entirely possible” isn’t evidence or argument. From what we’ve seen, the Primordial was always “one” with the Flood. However, Mendicant Bias’s betrayal was Faber’s fault, but even there it’s easy to understand his motives for sending the AI to interrogate the creature.
>
> 2. No one is saying it “makes up” for anything. We’re saying it adds to his character that he tried to atone in small part at the end, and makes him more than just a straight up villain.
>
> 3. What’s with the attitude? We read the book, and it is clear that Bear wrote the Master Builder to be more than a moustache-twirling villain
- While the Flood are Precursors (albeit defective ones), like I said, we have no indication that prior to the release of the Primordial that Star Roads were active in the conflict. While its possible that the Key Minds had something to do with it, its just as possible (if not more so) that the Primordial had something to do with it.
The Primordial wasnt always one with the Flood. Prior to its time on 07, the desription of the creature is rather different than what we see on the Halo. My theory on this is that the Timeless-One (the creature imprisoned on Charum Hakkor) was actually a full-fledged Precursor, while the Primordial on 07 was more in line with a Gravemind. The Precursor merged with the Flood on 07, and THEN the two became one.
“Its entirely possible” obviously isnt evidence or arguement, whats the point of saying that? Its called theory, as in formulating an idea based on information present when there is no definative answer on something.
-
The definition of REDEEM is “to atone for”, so yea, the arguement stated here is that Fabers final actions “made up for” his prior actions.
-
Its actually not clear at all. If Faber wasnt meant to be a mustache-twirling villain, why did he use such an unecessarily elaborate method to try to kill the Didact, instead of just outright killing him? The thing that is made abundantly clear is that Fabers attitude never changes, even in his final moments alive.
Theres really no “attitude”, im just honestly wondering if people actually read Fabers monologue before he fired the ring or not, because it honestly doesnt seem like it.
- nearly exterminates humanity but goes down with his halo so it’s fine.
> The Primordial wasnt always one with the Flood. Prior to its time on 07, the desription of the creature is rather different than what we see on the Halo. My theory on this is that the Timeless-One (the creature imprisoned on Charum Hakkor) was actually a full-fledged Precursor, while the Primordial on 07 was more in line with a Gravemind. The Precursor merged with the Flood on 07, and THEN the two became one.
The only real problem with this theory is that the Humans had determined through their study that it wasn’t a single creature but multiple creatures combined and they are the one who had identified it as a Gravemind. We can’t really discard their research when they spent more time studying it than the Forerunner did.
> > 1. Yet they didn’t decide to use all those technologies until after the demise of the precursor? His point makes more sense.
> >
> > 2.Which is mind boggling to us because of the amount of life forms that died and the fact he is the reason the flood were able to spread so far. He was bragging about how he was the “master strategist” while we learned that those systems he protected saw 5X more casualties than if they were left alone. Not to mention how he acts like a typical politician by trying to say charum hakkor was a planned event and all part of his grand master scheme.
> >
> >
> > I don’t see how that act in anyway Makes up (yes because that is exactly what you are saying even if it a little bit) for the genocide of humanity and other races in the galaxy.
> >
> >
> > 3. What???
>
> 1. Except the Precursor didn’t “die” in any meaningful sense. Why else would the Flood stage be called “Key minds” if it doesn’t have to do with them unlocking Precursor powers?
>
> 2. Placing all the blame on Faber for what happened is a huge exaggeration. Even if he is largely responsible for the Flood’s early victories, his Halo array is what saved the Galaxy. The alternatives were Flood victory, or the Didact’s plan of turning unwilling sentients into mindless robots and then going around exterminating any race the Didact saw as threat after the Flood.
>
> 3. It bugs me when people accuse those with different opinions of “not reading the book”, as if there opinion is the only legit one, that’s why I called him out on it. Good literature is always open to interpretation. There is room for debate here among reasonable people, no need to get nasty.
> * nearly exterminates humanity but goes down with his halo so it’s fine.
^Puts words in people mouth and creates strawmen to argue against
> 1. While the Flood are Precursors (albeit defective ones), like I said, we have no indication that prior to the release of the Primordial that Star Roads were active in the conflict. While its possible that the Key Minds had something to do with it, its just as possible (if not more so) that the Primordial had something to do with it.
>
> The Primordial wasnt always one with the Flood. Prior to its time on 07, the desription of the creature is rather different than what we see on the Halo. My theory on this is that the Timeless-One (the creature imprisoned on Charum Hakkor) was actually a full-fledged Precursor, while the Primordial on 07 was more in line with a Gravemind. The Precursor merged with the Flood on 07, and THEN the two became one.
>
> “Its entirely possible” obviously isnt evidence or arguement, whats the point of saying that? Its called theory, as in formulating an idea based on information present when there is no definative answer on something.
>
> 2. The definition of REDEEM is “to atone for”, so yea, the arguement stated here is that Fabers final actions “made up for” his prior actions.
>
> 3. Its actually not clear at all. If Faber wasnt meant to be a mustache-twirling villain, why did he use such an unecessarily elaborate method to try to kill the Didact, instead of just outright killing him? The thing that is made abundantly clear is that Fabers attitude never changes, even in his final moments alive.
>
> Theres really no “attitude”, im just honestly wondering if people actually read Fabers monologue before he fired the ring or not, because it honestly doesnt seem like it.
The OP may have been clumsily worded in regards to “redeem,” but the larger point that Faber acted with honor and a clear desire to atone in the end still stands. I’m not denying he did villainous and downright monstrously evil things throughout the trilogy. But that’s what makes his final moments so interesting. I’m honestly stumped how you can say his attitude “never changes” at the end, when he admits that he has committed crimes and chooses to die
> > * nearly exterminates humanity but goes down with his halo so it’s fine.
>
> ^Puts words in people mouth and creates strawmen to argue against
> The entire downfall of Forerunner civilization is his fault, and yet he’s the one who created the Halos. If the Forerunner strategy had revolved just on shield-worlds we can argue on stupid hypotheticals, but as it is Faber’s actions both doomed (letting Mendicant get corrupted and Primordial escape and causing Urdidact’s insantiy) and saved the galaxy (working with Librarian with Halos and reseeding).
Seriously? I love that people can say something so stupid that the retort comes off as a “fallacy” when it was going off the exact words somebody else said.
It isn’t like my words haven’t been twisted at all in this thread but of course that gets disregarded.
> > > * nearly exterminates humanity but goes down with his halo so it’s fine.
> >
> > ^Puts words in people mouth and creates strawmen to argue against
>
>
>
> > The entire downfall of Forerunner civilization is his fault, and yet he’s the one who created the Halos. If the Forerunner strategy had revolved just on shield-worlds we can argue on stupid hypotheticals, but as it is Faber’s actions both doomed (letting Mendicant get corrupted and Primordial escape and causing Urdidact’s insantiy) and saved the galaxy (working with Librarian with Halos and reseeding).
>
> Seriously? I love that people can say something so stupid that the retort comes off as a “fallacy” when it was going off the exact words somebody else said.
> It isn’t like my words haven’t been twisted at all in this thread but of course that gets disregarded.
You understand that most people are capable of both good and evil? And those weren’t the “exact words” of Voryn at all…
That’s only because he thought it was the end of Forerunner Civilization. I mean, it took right up to the end of his own species to determine that all the stuff he did was wrong.
That’s pretty pathetic if you ask me.
> when he admits that he has committed crimes and chooses to die
Yet there wasn’t any indication of emotion behind it not to mention that he just got done bragging about how he forced the Didact into exile and how he was smarter than anybody, dubbing himself “The Greater Strategist.”
If there were a place for Faber to escape to would he have still died? Because he slipped out during his trail at the capital be for some reason that just never finished and was forgotten about.
You do know that he supported the extermination of humans but didn’t do so because we may have had information to help them right? If that wasn’t the case we wouldn’t exist, not to mention he furthered our humiliation by turning us into lemurs knowing damn well we had a reason for attacking.
I honestly don’t see how his constant harm of innocence is being ignored. You guys got so pissed with -Yoink!-’s being brought up by Karen but are supporting somebody that isn’t acting different from a -Yoink!-.
> > > > * nearly exterminates humanity but goes down with his halo so it’s fine.
> > >
> > > ^Puts words in people mouth and creates strawmen to argue against
> >
> >
> >
> > > The entire downfall of Forerunner civilization is his fault, and yet he’s the one who created the Halos. If the Forerunner strategy had revolved just on shield-worlds we can argue on stupid hypotheticals, but as it is Faber’s actions both doomed (letting Mendicant get corrupted and Primordial escape and causing Urdidact’s insantiy) and saved the galaxy (working with Librarian with Halos and reseeding).
> >
> > Seriously? I love that people can say something so stupid that the retort comes off as a “fallacy” when it was going off the exact words somebody else said.
> > It isn’t like my words haven’t been twisted at all in this thread but of course that gets disregarded.
>
> You understand that most people are capable of both good and evil? And those weren’t the “exact words” of Voryn at all…
So if i am evil for 99 percent of my life but have one good act that makes everything peachy? It is the logic being used
> > > > > * nearly exterminates humanity but goes down with his halo so it’s fine.
> > > >
> > > > ^Puts words in people mouth and creates strawmen to argue against
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > The entire downfall of Forerunner civilization is his fault, and yet he’s the one who created the Halos. If the Forerunner strategy had revolved just on shield-worlds we can argue on stupid hypotheticals, but as it is Faber’s actions both doomed (letting Mendicant get corrupted and Primordial escape and causing Urdidact’s insantiy) and saved the galaxy (working with Librarian with Halos and reseeding).
> > >
> > > Seriously? I love that people can say something so stupid that the retort comes off as a “fallacy” when it was going off the exact words somebody else said.
> > > It isn’t like my words haven’t been twisted at all in this thread but of course that gets disregarded.
> >
> > You understand that most people are capable of both good and evil? And those weren’t the “exact words” of Voryn at all…
>
> So if i am evil for 99 percent of my life but have one good act that makes everything peachy? It is the logic being used and if you want the exact words i can easily go quote where he said going down with the halo was perfectly fine.
Why do you insist on saying “makes everything peachy”? That’s why I said you were relying on strawmen for your argument. I don’t think the OP fully thought out the word “redeem,” but the rest of us are just saying that his final acts showed a side of him we hadn’t yet seen, and saved his character from being a one-note villain