I just can't...

Games Other Halo
15

To get back on topic I would say we need some addition by subtraction.

‘New’ features should be fine tuning old (and of course adding in little things that Devs always do).

Make the best forge, customs, theater and fire fight that we’ve ever seen.

Make sure the connection is absolutely top notch.

Make sure ranked and social.

I guess my point is that these very basic things will help us all ‘get along’ and bond again as a happy Halo community. NOBODY would argue ‘against the changes’. I guess everything else is opinion based; so my biggest additions are…

  1. Keep loadouts (drop AA from it, add other LITTLE things like quick reload type)
  2. Drop POD all together in all modes
  3. Make AAs map only drops like H3 (add / subtract ‘what they are’… but nobody starts with them.

My list could go on, but I think this would fix Halo’s core.

16

> I can tell you the changes…But what you consider big changes may not be what i consider big changes. Things like stopping power is a great example. It’s a small simple perk. One tiny addition. When it was in play it generated a style of play for the meta game. You were pretty much going to lose if you did not have it. Thus making loadouts and what “worked” a very narrow list. Now fast forward to black ops 1 where we no longer have stopping power. Suddenly more weapons and play styles become viable. This is just one example of many.
>
> That’s rigged. If you showed a player who wasn’t familiar with the series gameplay they are not going to understand the tiny changes that make a big difference. They are just going to see people shooting people. Ha. Every cod player i know has a different favorite COD game because of different additions. Halo 4 at it’s core still plays the halo formula.

Exactly. Adding/removing a perk can change gameplay drastically, but the core remains. By simply removing one perk, the game suddenly became much more fun and balanced. All I ask is that Halo do the same thing: add/remove weapons, new maps, maybe even some new abilities, but the core should remain.

My point with the CoD gameplay was that even with all of those “big changes,” the core gameplay is so similar that you wouldn’t be able to tell them apart, and this is a good thing. If you showed someone gameplay footage of Halo 3, Halo: Reach, and Halo 4, graphical/artistic differences aside, they would still be able to tell that they were different games because of how differently they play (Halo: Reach added AAs and bloom, Halo 4 added sprint, loadouts, and perks). Whereas CoD is able to steadily build its fanbase because of its consistency, Halo has had to almost start over twice because of the changes.

17

> @vektor0 If you quote me next time could you please not break it up like that? When i quote you back it just makes things a mess.

Actually, breaking down a post into its individual points is a very effective way of debating.

I can’t tell you how much I wish most people would debate in that way.
I spend a lot of time and effort to reply to each individual argument a person makes, so as not to miss anything.
Yet most of the time, what I get in return is people replying to only one of my points, knowing full well that their reply is already invalidated by another one of my points which they missed out.

The most effective debaters on the forums will take the time to reply to individual arguments; if you find that to be inconvenient, it’s a shame but people shouldn’t have to change their writing style.

18

> > @vektor0 If you quote me next time could you please not break it up like that? When i quote you back it just makes things a mess.
>
> Actually, breaking down a post into its individual points is a very effective way of debating.

I think it’s just the format in which I did it which bugs him. I find it easier to read, but it is a little more cumbersome to format, which is what I think his complaint is.

I don’t have a problem with adjusting my writing style (within reason, of course) to accommodate another if it adversely affects his ability to respond.

19

To be honest, the only thing that sets my eyebrow a-twitch is when people like you mentioned in the OP fall over themselves about about ‘classic’, then in the next breathe lapse into how much they enjoyed Halo 2 and 3.

To me, those 2 just ain’t classic enough to be ‘classic’ Halo.

20

> In order for halo 4 to be successful it has to go back to it’s arena roots.

Actually, the argument is that in order for Halo in general to be successful with online numbers, it will need to adhere to core gameplay from the original trilogy.
Halo 4’s remaining population will mostly consist of Infinity fans, so there isn’t much point in trying to transform Halo 4 into an “arena” game.

> But why can’t they just go back and play halo 3 then?

That’s so incredibly simple; I don’t know how you can even ask such a question.

People want CORE gameplay to remain intact; not ALL gameplay, and people want two things out of a new Halo game:

  1. Identifiable, consistent core gameplay.
  2. The addition of new, exciting features that adhere to that gameplay.

As Halo 3 is now an old game, it isn’t hard to understand that it only offers one of those two things; can you guess which one it is?
That’s correct, the first one. Halo 3 does not offer something new and exciting, as it is an older game. Make sense?

> “Because i don’t want to play a 6+ year old MP.” But your asking for halo 4 to be the 6 year old MP?

Nope.

People are asking for core gameplay to remain consistent with the old core gameplay, but for new innovations which adhere to that gameplay.
If a new Halo game followed that guideline, then it would not have “6 year old MP”.

By definition, it would have new multiplayer, with identifiable gameplay at its core, which is holding it all together.

> No no no, additions can be made Just not These additions. Well what do you suggest then?

This is such a false argument and it is not the first time I’ve corrected it by any means.
It is not the responsibility of the fans to come up with the new ideas, it is the responsibility of the developers.

> Because a lot of the additions of the past halo installments were bashed on and people left over them.

Right? Never to the degree of these recent Halo games.

Every feature in every game that has ever been made will have had critics. What makes the hate for the features in Halo Reach and 4 unique, is that it is based upon the way in which those features detract from the core gameplay of previous titles.

> What makes their distaste wrong and yours right?

It has nothing to do with who likes or hates which feature, and everything to do with whether or not those features complement core gameplay.
People may incidentally like new features which don’t adhere to that gameplay, but their subjective view is not related to whether or not the features do adhere to it.

Let’s pretend that Black Ops 2 got rid of sprint, and then certain Halo fans actually preferred the game that way; their enjoyment wouldn’t act as an indication that no sprint works better with Call of Duty gameplay mechanics.

That’s what it all comes down to.

> A lot of the people who are against the new additions claim they don’t want a copy and paste but they never offer solutions. It’s always this circle of BS that always gets to me.

And why on Earth should they be expected to give ideas for new features? That’s just nonsense.

> I just bite my lip every time i see a post about “classic halo” will save they day when there is no proof to back it up. What is worse is when they say they don’t want to play 6+ old MP But they are so invested in thinking doing such is the right answer

I believe my previous points address this perfectly.

21

I don’t see not providing solutions as a major issue, really. Of course it’s something I would recommend, but the problem with solutions is that good solutions are much harder than bad solutions. The exact reason why I don’t often provide solutions and completely avoid suggesting new gameplay mechanics is that I understand the issues they have.

That’s not to say I think all my solutions are horrible, but knowing how difficult it is to come up with solutions that aren’t completely miserable, I don’t expect people to do it. But if you still want these people to suggest solutions, ask them. I believe most people have something in their head, good or bad, which you can get them to reveal just by casually asking. However, personally, I consider justifying my position as a bigger priority.

The final problem I see with at least my own solutions is that the gameplay has diverged so far from my ideal gameplay that what I take for granted, others may not. When I explain the problems, it takes one post. When I tell my solutions, it requires another. Explaining my solutions would take a third. (Roughly, it’d actually be 1.5 full post lengths). Not something I usually get around to doing for aforementioned reasons.

> > > @vektor0 If you quote me next time could you please not break it up like that? When i quote you back it just makes things a mess.
> >
> > Actually, breaking down a post into its individual points is a very effective way of debating.
>
> I think it’s just the format in which I did it which bugs him. I find it easier to read, but it is a little more cumbersome to format, which is what I think his complaint is.
>
> I don’t have a problem with adjusting my writing style (within reason, of course) to accommodate another if it adversely affects his ability to respond.

The format definitely takes a bit of effort, but I personally think it makes the whole debate so much easier to read and to keep up with. I think it’s something anyone who likes to debate should get used to.

22

> > > @vektor0 If you quote me next time could you please not break it up like that? When i quote you back it just makes things a mess.
> >
> > Actually, breaking down a post into its individual points is a very effective way of debating.
>
> I think it’s just the format in which I did it which bugs him. I find it easier to read, but it is a little more cumbersome to format, which is what I think his complaint is.
>
> I don’t have a problem with adjusting my writing style (within reason, of course) to accommodate another if it adversely affects his ability to respond.

No I completely understand why he dislikes it. I’m not suggesting that its effectiveness in a debate scares him somehow; I realize it’s just that it is more difficult to reply to.

I’m just saying that I think the way in which it benefits discussion is more important than how inconvenient it is to reply to. I don’t want to make a huge deal out of if of course.

23

> A lot of the people who are against the new additions claim they don’t want a copy and paste but they never offer solutions.

With all do respect (and I know what you’re getting at too, but…), I’m fairly certain not only have many people given solutions to a lot of Halo 4’s problems, but pretty much every “New ideas for Halo 4-5-6” thread in existence would argue with the idea that people don’t want change.

> What is worse is when they say they don’t want to play 6+ old MP But they are so invested in thinking doing such is the right answer.

I think what a lot of people don’t realise (I’m not singling you out in particularly, but people on this forum in general) is that when people say they want “Classic” gameplay, they generally aren’t asking for a Halo 3 re-skin. It’s that style of gameplay in general that had mass appeal, and while there certainly isn’t substantial evidence that it would work out now, at the same time Infinity clearly hasn’t been working either.

So then what are we left with? Do we go with what was successful in the past and build off of that, or do we go with what has been largely unsuccessful in the present? Neither is a guarantee for failure or success and so both should be included, but I’d argue working on what’s proven instead of what has failed seems like the better option.

That’s not to say we should ignore Infinity. Custom loadouts and some armor abilities (thruster for example) could work very well with the game, but I personally believe that it shouldn’t be the only option available like it was in Halo 4.

What I think they should do, is release a “F2P” basic Halo game with just three playlists, one classic, one Infinity, and one a mixture of the two utilising the best of both, and see what kind of results they get. The point is to get a consensus on what the community wants, and focus on that in the next game while catering to the other two options as well, if the population shows benefit for it. The money you lose in this F2P game you will inevitably make up for in the next game by giving the players exactly what they want, as opposed to making a guess.) would be ne

> EDIT: The point of this post is to point out the redundancy in the general community and asking you as a player what is a mechanic you could see replacing something we already have. Please stick to the topic at hand.

What is a mechanic I could see replacing with something we already have? Drop jetpack entirely (save for customs and campaign) and utilise Concussion rifle as its replacement.

Accomplishes the same thing, but damages the player in the process and has limited ammo. Two per map, 45 second respawn and maps design to incorporate the weapon. We’ll see far more advanced movement tactics this way and will negate the largest part of what jetpack damages.

I apologise if any of the above came of as hostile, I really don’t mean to but I’ve taken less care in how I post as of late.

24

The only thing that could have kept population high was visible-in-game rank, which disappeared with Reach. That kept Reach’s population low and it has kept H4’s population low. Had it existed with Reach there probably would have been less complaining overall.

Unfortunately, no one has come up with a solution that would prevent account selling and it’s inherent skewing of TrueSkill.

25

> The only thing that could have kept population high was visible-in-game rank, which disappeared with Reach. That kept Reach’s population low and it has kept H4’s population low. Had it existed with Reach there probably would have been less complaining overall.
>
> Unfortunately, no one has come up with a solution that would prevent account selling and it’s inherent skewing of TrueSkill.

I highly doubt that in-game ranks alone would have made the difference between Halo 4 retaining a healthy number of players, and Halo 4 losing players.
Halo 4’s problems go far beyond a lack of in-game ranks, though I don’t doubt that it is at least one of the problems.

I don’t think in-game ranks would appeal to the people it is aimed at, when the game itself lacks a great deal of competitiveness that it’s predecessors once boasted.

26

Imagine if AA’s were pick ups. Then you wouldn’t have to balance them (which would take away the frustration in trying to ballance them). It would also allow more powerful AA’s to be created.

This could also open up the door for map specific AA’s. Equipment was the most logical progression for the Halo formula. AA’ s should have followed were equipment left off. But oh well.

27

> > The only thing that could have kept population high was visible-in-game rank, which disappeared with Reach. That kept Reach’s population low and it has kept H4’s population low. Had it existed with Reach there probably would have been less complaining overall.
> >
> > Unfortunately, no one has come up with a solution that would prevent account selling and it’s inherent skewing of TrueSkill.
>
> I highly doubt that in-game ranks alone would have made the difference between Halo 4 retaining a healthy number of players, and Halo 4 losing players.
> Halo 4’s problems go far beyond a lack of in-game ranks, though I don’t doubt that it is at least one of the problems.
>
> I don’t think in-game ranks would appeal to the people it is aimed at, when the game itself lacks a great deal of competitiveness that it’s predecessors once boasted.

The point that I was attempting to make here was that had there been a rank system similar to Halo 3 in Reach, players may have been far more tolerant of the changes. The lack of a competitive rank system was the flagship for all the other complaints.

If you (not you specifically) are paying attention to the way the Halo story is evolving, it’s pretty clear that AA’s can’t go away. Given the resources the UNSC now has available to them, we are likely to see more AA’s, and it’s highly likely that you may even be able to sport more than one at a time. If you are a campaign player this will not be an issue, but hardcore competitive players will likely not stand for it.

I see no reason, however, why there couldn’t be a playlist where all the games featured the basic elements found in Halo 2 and 3 multiplayer: Equal starts with equipment/power weapons as pickups to be fought over. This playlist would need to be available when the game is released.

As for Halo 4, the only solution that I can see that might help popularity would be to open up Custom Games/Forge and allow players the freedom they had in Halo 3 and Reach to make games they feel are more competitive/entertaining. All the arguments now are about what should be taken out to make the games more competitive. Well, why aren’t we able to do that in Custom Games? Why aren’t the Custom Games that are being produced featured in Matchmaking?

Halo’s story is not going backward, and neither should the online gameplay. It’s clear, however, that there should always be something there for those that liked the old ways and who don’t particularly care for the new stuff. That way there would be time for the holdouts to have a chance to appreciate what the developer has introduced, instead of the like it or leave it approach they have now.

28

> I just bite my lip every time i see a post about “classic halo” will save they day when there is no proof to back it up.

Halo 3’s population compared to Halo 4’s.
There’s your proof.

I agree with everything Jazzii Man said.

29

> The point that I was attempting to make here was that had there been a rank system similar to Halo 3 in Reach, players may have been far more tolerant of the changes. The lack of a competitive rank system was the flagship for all the other complaints.

I think it would have helped, but not nearly as much as it would have in a more competitive game.
I see what you’re saying though and I do agree that they should be in-game.

> If you (not you specifically) are paying attention to the way the Halo story is evolving, it’s pretty clear that AA’s can’t go away. Given the resources the UNSC now has available to them, we are likely to see more AA’s, and it’s highly likely that you may even be able to sport more than one at a time. If you are a campaign player this will not be an issue, but hardcore competitive players will likely not stand for it.

I’m all for AAs staying, and that’s such an incredibly simple thing to fix. Here’s how:

AAs are as normal in Campaign; AAs are placed upon the maps in multiplayer.
Seeing as multiplayer is Spartan training, the AAs could be placed upon the maps for the purpose of helping Spartans to develop and maintain the skills involved in obtaining them.

I’m not particularly concerned with how much sense multiplayer makes canonically, but I believe I’ve just given a perfectly good way that they could do.

> I see no reason, however, why there couldn’t be a playlist where all the games featured the basic elements found in Halo 2 and 3 multiplayer: Equal starts with equipment/power weapons as pickups to be fought over. This playlist would need to be available when the game is released.

This is a whole other subject really.

I don’t agree that it is as simple as including a playlist for one side or the other. I wont go into details here though.

> As for Halo 4, the only solution that I can see that might help popularity would be to open up Custom Games/Forge and allow players the freedom they had in Halo 3 and Reach to make games they feel are more competitive/entertaining. All the arguments now are about what should be taken out to make the games more competitive. Well, why aren’t we able to do that in Custom Games? Why aren’t the Custom Games that are being produced featured in Matchmaking?

I don’t believe there is any reason for 343 to include anything in multiplayer which is aimed towards traditional fans, simply because the remaining population will consist of players that wouldn’t touch it to being with.

> Halo’s story is not going backward, and neither should the online gameplay.

I made a thread about that type of argument the other day.

> It’s clear, however, that there should always be something there for those that liked the old ways and who don’t particularly care for the new stuff. <mark>That way there would be time for the holdouts to have a chance to appreciate what the developer has introduced</mark>, instead of the like it or leave it approach they have now.

It’s not a lack of exposure to the new gameplay which has prevented people from enjoying it, but the way in which that gameplay is not familiar at the very core.

30

> > No no no, additions can be made Just not These additions. Well what do you suggest then?
>
> It’s the developer’s job to come up with new features. Do you really think that the only possible ways that Halo can evolve from Halo 3 are AAs, custom loadouts, and PODs?
>
> Features such as vehicle boarding, dual-wielding, Forge, custom gametypes, etc. were made by the developer, not the players. Players suck at suggesting new gameplay features. That’s why I stay out of the Halo Xbox One forum.

Thread is too involved now to reply to it all, but just to say I think that is a silly thing to say - and something that is said a lot.

“It’s the developer’s job to come up with new features”.

If we (a community of many) can’t even conceive an idea that pleases the majority how can you expect a developer to? Yes the devs might think of some new mind blowing idea that improves the experience for the masses (and it would still be complained about on this board), but the fact is its a hell of a lot harder to dream up new gameplay mechanics now than it was 8 years ago but that does not mean to say that games should just stick with the same 6 year old formula from now until the end of time. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t hope for them to dramatically alter gameplay in a pleasing manor, but if you cannot think of how this could possibly be done, I do not think it is fair to say “yeah well I’m no developer, the developer should be able to, it’s his job”.

COD has remained exactly the same for what, 8 titles now? Some people are pleased with that but I for one got bored 3 or so games ago. I’m glad to see the devs of Halo still trying new things, they may be hit and miss but I’ll take the variety. If I want Halo 3 gameplay I’ll go play Halo 3, but I played that game to death already and want something new - and I don’t just mean news maps and reskins of old weapons (a la COD), I mean new gameplay. If you do want reskins of old games that’s fair enough, but that isn’t what I want. And if you don’t want it to play like a reskin, then I think you should be able to suggest what changes you would like rather than saying “well the devs should think of it” like you know its there, you just can’t even hint to what it is.

31

> > One difference halo 4 has lost over 90% of its population in under a year. There’s a problem somewhere. If we went back to the old halo with additions that wouldn’t ruin mm then wed be fine. Its not my job to make games btw.
>
> 1) This is not a population thread. There is a thread for that i will ask you to refrain from bringing it up again or i will have to report your post for being off topic.
>
> 2) Until you can bring me proof that “classic halo” can and will “save” the franchise your words are empty.
>
> 3) No. But as a community member it is your job to provide feedback to help make the game better for everyone. Simply saying i don’t like this or that is broken does not aid anyone.

  1. lol the population says everything.

  2. I think its to late, but I know a lot of people that left Halo 4.

  3. I think after 10 months everything is said over and over again.

They dont have to make it exactly like Halo 3 but cant you see that its a bit broken if you can look through walls and have a one shot kill weapon in your pocket?

The problem at the beginning was that they didnt had any solutions for the competitive/core/and classic Halo players that made the game big.

JIP and the bad lag also did their part.

32

> If we (a community of many) can’t even conceive an idea that pleases the majority how can you expect a developer to?

The same way I expect scriptwriters to come up with a good plot, graphic designers to come up with fantastic art, and programmers to debug their code. I don’t know anything about any of those things; if I did, I would create my own game instead of playing someone else’s.

33

Not trying to Bump my own thread. This will be my last reply. I left without saying anything because i had a job interview and on the way back i got into abit of an accident. Currently it’s hard for me to sleep and my vision gets slightly misaligned when i focus on something for more then a few minutes. So i’m going to go back and try to sleep after this post.

Thank you for everyone who replied in a polite constructive mannor. I visit the forums frequently and sometimes people end up saying the same thing but meaning something different. So it throws me off and i end up piecing the “logic” i used in the OP together. Thanks to you who have understood where i was comming from (even with the formatting) and those of you who explained something further and clearer so i don’t get these backwords views.

See you star side cowboys. <3

34

There’s a difference between Halo keeping the feel of past multiplayer games and Halo becoming aged. Call of Duty is a great example of a series that has retained the same core throughout different games, whereas 343 tried to change the core feel of Halo multiplayer. Change can be great but people bought Halo 4 expecting to play something at least slightly similar to past games, when in reality Halo 4 doesn’t even share the same core as past games.

As much as you support the new direction of Halo, the population of the game (17k peak yesterday compared to Halo 3 having a 300k+ a year after release) proves the majority of fans do not.