HUGE FORGEWORLD DISCUSSION THREAD!

EDIT: TL;DR at bottom

There’s no denying that Forge 2.0 is a brilliant and innovative system, designed to give players a lot to work with. But there’s also no denying that it has some very fundamental flaws, which I hope to outline in the upcoming text. Almost all of these flaws could easily be fixed in the next Forge World, and would greatly improve it’s potential.

Issue One: Too Much Glass
This issue, somewhat addressed by the Tempest palette (which, while useful for 4v4 maps doesn’t solve the issue of lag in BTB/Invasion maps), is a serious cause of lag. Forgers want glass as a good looking aesthetic, but not if it severely impacts the framerate as it does. I doubt that any Forger would have a significantly worse experience due to its absence. As such, it’s only logical to remove this glass from the upcoming Forge World, and replace it with an equally good looking, but less laggy opaque version like with Tempest, or remove it entirely, and only use see-through glass for certain pieces like Window, Double and Cover, Glass. Because glass contributes so signicantly, being in almost every Block and Decorative piece, it has become a serious issue, as it means player must cut down on essential Blocks and replace them with Coliseum Walls, which are often too big for the intended purpose, in order to cut down on lag. Players have a choice between ugly or laggy, a choice which they shouldn’t have to make.

Issue Two: Not Enough Blocks
Another major issue in Forge is the fact that, while there not enough Block or Wall pieces to go around - despite them being staples of a forger’s arsenal - there are more than enough Decorative and Inclines. A forger often finds him/herself out of blocks halfway through a creation, while they still have 100 useless Cover, Glasses to work with, and therefore must resort to using pieces such as Brace, Large, which do not entirely fit their intended purpose, and are very difficult incorporate into aesthetics.

This is a major issue, as it means bigger sky maps often have issues with deplenishing Wall and Block stocks, and in many of these cases, a Coliseum Wall or Brace, Large cannot help. It also means that for more fiddly creations, like Boarding Action remakes, Forgers will often struggle with pieces, and if they can finish the base design, it will look ugly and untidy. Which leads me neatly on to Issues 3 and 4.

Issue Three: Useless Pieces
Forge has many almost entirely useless pieces which, while having a use in their assigned spot, have almost no use otherwise. Pieces like Brace, Large, Cover, Glass, Ramp XL and Bunker, Cover have only 1 or 2 uses, and are entirely non-versatile. And what non-intended uses they do have are often to do things that Blocks and Walls could, should and would be doing if it weren’t for their small amounts.

This would not be a problem however, if we had say 50 decorative and pieces, as we would still be able to give each piece a place in a Forge map, but we would have more of the important pieces like Walls and Blocks. Say we cut down to 10 buildings, 50 Decorative Pieces, 50 Ramps, we would be able to have at least 50 more Walls and 50 more Blocks and still be able to maintain good aesthetics and effective vertical traversal.

Issue Four: Grouping Pieces
But even then our Forge would have the fundamental issue of the grouped price system employed by Bungie. The grouped price system (The system by which Bungie groups items into Categories such as Decorative or Natural, all items in a category sharing a common price) is undeniably ridiculous under scrutiny. Why should a simple, 6 polygon Coliseum Wall cost as much as a Door, Double, which has God only knows how many polygons? The grouping system does work, but the one price fits all does not.

Pieces like the Cover, Glass should cost $75 or above, being made of glass and having at least 10 polygons (to my count).
What Bungie needs to do is make pieces like glass, or doors, much more expensive that simple pieces such as Block 1x1 or wall double.

Note: A system suggested to me by Ultermarto, while unlikely to be implemented into the current Halo, is a very effective one: The implementation of a system calculating how many pieces could be added before lag became critical. Windows and objects with many polygons, like Buildings, would be more expensive than simple, relatively cheap Blocks.

Issue Five: Over Complicated, But Boring Forged Pieces
Many pieces, like the simple Wall, have unneeded polgons and useless, simply aesthetic parts(glass and handles), which contribute to lag and are detrimental to gameplay, as it makes them bumpy to walk on and not actually that attractive.

However, all this glass and un-needed polygons may be excusable if the pieces were not so boring anyway. Endless grey, with not enough team colour to distinguish themselves from each other isn’t a description that should be befitting of a Forge pallette. This leads to dull, grey maps, with little way to distinguish areas of the map other than the layout, which is also bad for gameplay. This could be fixed by adding nice textures to the pieces (which were easily identifiable when team colour was changed) like in Sandbox, rather than wasting polgons on un-needed aesthetic touches and lag-inducing glass
Issue Six: The Sandbox Triplet
The Sandbox Triplet are the three Sandbox arenas: Skybox, Sandbox and Crypt. These arenas are crucial to Sandbox each for their own reason. The Crypt for contained maps with built in flooring and walls. The Skybox for large sky arenas with an easily visible grid allowing sky maps to be exact. And the Sandbox for open, BTB sized arenas with a flat floor.

The Sandbox triplet was designed so that players could create 3 prominent Halo map styles with ease. In Forge World however, while Bungie excels in the Skybox, it falters for the others.

The Crypt/The Coliseum, had a flat wall and floor, but it is out of line with the assigned grid bumps, meaning phased pieces all have to be manually raised to make proper use of it.

The Sandbox is the biggest issue. FW has no flat, BTB sized, open area at all, and this space can only be replicated using a significant amount of walls. This means this kind of map, that plays so well with the competitive aspect Halo, is gone unless this flat area is incorporated into the next FW.

Note: It has been said that the Quarry serves this purpose, but being neither large enough for BTB nor entirely flat, it doesn’t

Issue Seven: Block Walls
Another issue facing forgers is a deficiency of good walls. Sure, the Wall Double is useful, and so is the Wall Coliseum, but we have nothing in between. Because of the aforementioned wall shortage, the forger is forced to make half his/her walls with block pieces.

The wall issue would not be so prominent if we rid ourselves of one use pieces like Window, Window Coliseum and Brace, Tunnel (serves an entirely aesthetic purpose and has no practical gameplay use) and replace them with items like Wall XL and Wall XXL, the equivalent of Wall Quadruple and Wall Sextuple (6x). This would mean that we could make large (but not coliseum sized) walls from our precious wall supply, and use our already small supply of blocks for other tasks

Issue Eight: The absence of some important blocks and pieces
In the current pallette, we’re missing some important blocks, which have seemingly been forgotten, likethe 2x2x2 standard Block from Halo 3. This piece is a staple of forging and cannot be replicated without wasting 2 other blocks. It helps fill space, fits well into symmetrical designs and acts, due to its shape and “standard” size as both a wall and block often at the same time, as does its larger version 2x2x4 the Block, Double. Also, larger, square shaped blocks such as 4x4x4 and 5x5x5 would be useful to serve the same purpose on a larger scale. The Ramps section is another in need of attention. Ramp XL is an ENTIRELY useless piece other than for aesthetics. Forge needs to return to the ramps of Halo 3, such as Wedge, Long, a piece which provide very little elevation but was incredibly versatile and useful as the miniature ramp that it was, and that the current forge lacks. 2 other important pieces to the Halo 3 forge, which was ALMOST a staple piece was Wedge, Corner and it’s counterpart Wedge, Huge (I think it was called). Two 2x2x2 pieces, which connected corners and alowed for a stunning pyramid effect have been forgotten despite being both incredibly “pretty” and very useful gameplay wise. The Wall, Slit which has been replaced by it’s smaller less versatile counterpart Window is sorely missed due to it’s ability to be used as a sniping hole, or effective aesthetic flooring.

TL;DR

  1. Too much glass; causes lag
  2. Too much decorative, not enough blocks, walls
  3. Many pieces useless, or have very limited use
  4. Grouping pieces prices is bad. Things with many polygons or glass cost same as simple things but simple things cause less lag. More polygons should be expensive
  5. Walls, Blocks have too many polys, glass. These shouldn’t cause lag. But despite glass, pieces still ugly
  6. Coliseum not in line with Bungie’s grid nudges, makes maps in there difficult. No BTB sized flat area like Sandbox; competitive flat maps impossible to make without wasting blocks. Coliseum Walls have same issue as floor
  7. Too few medium (4x4) walls; we have to use small supply of blocks to make them. More medium walls would mean more blocks, walls for use.
  8. Too few good block pieces, need more useful pieces like Wall, Slit, Block, Block, Double, Wedge, Double.

These issues undermine many of Forge’s great qualities, so hopefully in out next Forgeworld we will see at least some of them fixed.

I would rather not have a forge world but have an editor like the ones in the Tony Hawk games where you choose the size of the map, then the background and then add to the map with various things. This would stop the lag of having such a large map only to use a small space of it.

I thought the American Wasteland park editor was pretty awesome. It was simple and effective. It could work like this for Halo:

Edit the size of the map - Width and length
Choose backdrop out of a selection
Choose Terrain
Choose style of blocks and scenery

Result = Maps that don’t all look the same.

> I would rather not have a forge world but have an editor like the ones in the Tony Hawk games where you choose the size of the map, then the background and then add to the map with various things. This would stop the lag of having such a large map only to use a small space of it.
>
> I thought the American Wasteland park editor was pretty awesome. It was simple and effective. It could work like this for Halo:
>
> Edit the size of the map - Width and length
> Choose backdrop out of a selection
> Choose Terrain
> Choose style of blocks and scenery
>
> Result = Maps that don’t all look the same.

I do agree, but that involves making significant changes to the Forge Engine etc. What you read above was more of a list of improvements to iron out the kinks.

No huge forge world. Many normal forge maps would be better than the dull green/gray of Halo Reach all over again. If 3 forge maps with different terrain styles(desert, forest, snowy…) and object styles (human, forerunner, covenant…) it would be much better than another Forge World.

> No huge forge world. Many normal forge maps would be better than the dull green/gray of Halo Reach all over again. If 3 forge maps with different terrain styles(desert, forest, snowy…) and object styles (human, forerunner, covenant…) it would be much better than another Forge World.

I do agree with you on that. But you would definitely have to have some kind of giant playspace

I will add any decent suggestions to the OP

> I will add any decent suggestions to the OP

Your thread seems like a lot of complaints that we have all seen before…

For a fresh new idea that is undoubtedly epic, check out my vision based on currently released info here http://halo.xbox.com/Forums/yaf_postst75490_Infinity-Forging-speculation----7-points-to-consider.aspx

Personally, the biggest issues to me are the rotation and save/load glitches. I want the UI to be well-designed and stable first and foremost, before simply adding more features or pieces. I hate how Reach’s Forge can’t make up it’s mind on the rotation of certain objects, and I hate how every once in a while the save feature glicthes out and overwrites a random map on your HDD. I’d also like to see more precision for both placement and rotation, especially given how hard it is to fine-tune vertical placement (the bumpers are a clumsy way of doing that, even with the left-stick clicked in, since the bumpers are not pressure-sensitive like sticks).

I’d say framerate issues are a close second to that, though. Would like to be able to place multiple objects without worrying about lag, or that weird “disco” glitch (the one where random map objects start flashing/blinking, even when you’re standing still).

I posted my own suggestions (in response to a similar thread) several months back, so you can read them if you’re interested (the first two posts are essentially my “core” wishes; the rest are simply things I think would be cool, but not necessarily what I personally consider must-haves).

http://halo.xbox.com/Forums/yaf_postsm366481_Halo-4-Forge-Wish-List.aspx#post366481
http://halo.xbox.com/Forums/yaf_postsm366488_Halo-4-Forge-Wish-List.aspx#post366488
http://halo.xbox.com/Forums/yaf_postsm367299_Halo-4-Forge-Wish-List.aspx#post367299
http://halo.xbox.com/Forums/yaf_postsm368961_Halo-4-Forge-Wish-List.aspx#post368961
http://halo.xbox.com/Forums/yaf_postsm369184_Halo-4-Forge-Wish-List.aspx#post369184
http://halo.xbox.com/Forums/yaf_postsm369541_Halo-4-Forge-Wish-List.aspx#post369541