How are Sprint + Custom loadouts detrimental?

Probably made an error in the title. Meh.

I really do not see how AAs, Sprint, and all that other stuff are “detrimental” to gameplay.

I’ve played Halo 3 before. Don’t get me wrong, I live the game, but it doesn’t feel very fast. It kinda feels sluggish and cramped.

Halo 4, however, feels very fast and fun. Players are extremely.mobile with default sprint and jetpack, which can be used extremely tactically. The same goes for almost every AA. If I was a dev, I would remove instant respawns, but that’s probably just me. Sprint added to the map design and added a feeling of urgency and rush to the gameplay. It wasn’t detrimental for me- as a a matter of fact, it actually added onto the game.

On the topic of loadouts- yes, some weapons have no business being in laodouts, such as the Plasma Pistol. However, most things have a counter- but the counters to these should have been available from the start(I.E. Promethean Vision and Stealth.) Instead of being unlocked by playing a lot. Instead of purchasing weapons after unlocking them, players would gain Unlock Tokens when they rank up and use these tokens to purchase weapons, abilities, and perks.

Games that do have perks and load out weaponry can be quite balanced while still being unique. For example, CoD 4 and Crysis 3. CoD 4 is by far the most balanced CoD I’ve played(except for the hackers) and Crysis 3 was a nice mix of Arena Shooter and Modern Shooter- Map pickups and sandbox combat was extremely refreshing, and quite balanced(Aside from one or two weapons and the “Street Pole of DOOOOOOM!”). However, the perks in Halo 5 should not remove base features. Ex: in Halo 4, the Ammo perk increased the maximum ammo you could carry. In H5, it would allow you to carry around 3 extra mags for your spawning weapon.

Halo 4 did have a few flaws, especially ordnance. While it was a nice reward for players who did good, the randomness took away this reward. The lack of on-map power ups is saddening, but could be remedied in the next game.

That’s my argument for why I think Spring and load outs are not detrimental to gameplay.

This has been said far to many times over. So this link sums it all up I believe :slight_smile:

> 1. Sprint Removed.
> The following link shows that 72% of the 3190 people who voted, want sprint gone.
> https://forums.halowaypoint.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=211131&#
>
> Sprint’s effects on the game go a lot deeper than the obvious complaint made about players running away when they should have died. People can sprint off-spawn to finish a weakened player which lowers the punishment for dying and makes trading kills more prevalent. Previously, a victor could regain their shields and get ready for the next encounter by obtaining new weapons or positions in the downtime - an advantage to the winner. This works well as an appropriate disadvantage for dying.
>
> Sprint wrecks the advantage because you or a respawning ally can run straight back to the winner of the previous fight and finish him off. It removes the downtime where you get a chance to regain shields and prepare for the next encounter.
>
> These issues disrupt the flow, depth, integrity and intelligence of the game. They cause more anger than enjoyment and these are only the obvious effects.
>
> Sprint completely destroys the scale of the game. This is the real, underlying problem with sprint.
> Scale refers to the dimensions of a map, in relation to the dimensions and abilities of a Spartan. Halo gameplay has been consistent in the past regardless of weapons, kill times, maps, gametypes, grenades or perks, because the scale was done right;
>
> Box height VS spartan & jump height.
> Box width VS spartan & strafe width.
> Hallway width VS grenade explosion radius.
> Average encounter distance VS melee & average weapon effectiveness range.
> Map & Line of sight distance VS grenade throw distance & weapon range.
> Distance between cover VS spartan speed. (this is very important; too much distance between cover and you can’t move without dying, too little and you can’t kill anything, which is equally as bad)
>
> Geometry Proximity is another important point:
> Areas and geometry need to be close to each other to provide interesting, strategic and unique combat tactics using verticality. The further areas get from each other the less verticality and synergistic-use there is between them. Snipe tower on Lockout is a perfect example of close areas and geometry creating interesting, strategic and unique combat opportunities. However when sprint is added the tower becomes “too small”. So you enlarge the tower but now the exact properties that made it good are lost, it becomes too horizontal and has too much distance between each area for it to work well in combat.
>
> These are just a few examples of how scale dramatically affects the game. If any component in any of the above examples is too much or too little, the game will have huge problems. This is why sprint is such a big problem - the game has to balance sprint, against itself. It has to sacrifice the integrity of all properties above, in order to make sprint ‘work’.
>
> The average encounter distance is also increased which means a lot of the components that make Halo so unique and successful are made less viable; Circling players, strafing, jumping, melees, tactical grenades, CQC strategy. These aspects cannot thrive or have much effect when distances are increased to account for sprint. The game ends up functioning like another generic long-distance shooter with no flavor.
>
> When a player tries to hold a position down to run a flag, to protect his base, to kill other players, or to land shots across map to help his team mates, sprint makes it very hard to.
> For example Midship’s Pink tower in Halo 2: To use the tower you need to first defend it so you don’t get assassinated or caught off guard. With no sprint you have small windows of opportunity to shoot from it as players can’t sprint up there, all it takes is a periodic check to see if anyone is moving in on you. With sprint added, you need to be continually checking, and have no time to fire from the tower to other areas of the map.
> The power position value is diminished which removes structure, variance and direction from the map.
>
> This works everywhere - the idea that players have to constantly check their back and be on the lookout for players running into their area, instead of actually playing the game. It makes it very chaotic, unstructured, at times random, and completely ruins any chess-like mind games that happened constantly in previous titles. This is why Halo has been failing so much; the lack of combat structure and strategy makes it boring no matter what gizmos and gadgets you’re using.
>
> Upscaling maps is extremely bad, we cannot stress this enough. Angles get ruined; think looking through a window from across the road VS standing right up against it - you can’t see much of anything from across the road. This effect causes people to sprint more, to get closer, so they can play the game.
> Upscaling can be confusing as well as you feel far away, so you sprint, then get punished for it by getting caught mid-sprint. So you stop sprinting then get punished for moving around too slow and getting pinned in a bad positions with no weapons.
>
> The ‘slowed when getting shot mechanic’ introduced in Halo 4 fixes none of these absolutely serious issues with the game. There is nothing that can fix sprint, it will always ruin Halo.
> We hope that if anything is taken away from this document, it is this.

> Halo does not work with Armor Abilities and perks in loadouts because it goes directly against what Halo is about; me versus you, an even battlefield, the best man wins. Our first thought was to have a universal weapon start across all playlists, like Halo 1. The reasons for this are as follows:

It doesn’t go into why AAs are incredibly bad but the above quote is fairly valid. I’m sure others will explain it.

EDIT: ^^^ Thank you

This has been discussed to death… I’m sorry but i’m just tired of reading the same arguments over and over.

Sprint requires maps to be bigger so it is actually effective. Doing so makes every map way too big.

If a player gets weakened to one shot, a player can simply run away and have a get out of jail free card pretty much.

As for the Jetpack, players could use power weapons, gun skill, etc to finally gain control of an area on the map (like Snipe spawn on Reflection/Ivory Tower) and all one player needs to do is spawn with a Jetpack, swoop up, throw a few grenades and bam, the area is completely clear.

As for loadouts, they can work if they are balanced correctly. Allowing players to spawn with a Plasma Pistol and Plasma Grenades is the best example of what loadouts shouldn’t have. Players should be able to choose from a loadout with the same starting weapons, grenades but a different AA.

In short, Sprint needs to go as it means we get awful maps which have to be built around it and loadouts need to be reworked entirely to work.

I’ve heard it before, and I do accept it. I do understand what it does for Map design and gameplay, but it just… feels better, I guess. Its one of those things you can’t explain.

I have played devil’s advocate with this before, and I do see the plus side of the argument.

Let’s keep the discussion going.

I always thought loadouts in halo were fun, though the Plasma Pistols and Grenades need removal. As for boltshot, I believe that would be better as a primary and given a little more range, much like Titanfall’s Smart Pistol, which is a primary.
Additionally, I imagine that for Pulse grenades to be successful, they would need a major boost, making them unusable as a loadout (Or rather, too useful.)

Anyway, that would let players essentially decide which primary weapon and tacpackage/ supupgrade they get.

As for sprint, I like it, but I’m also indifferent. I liked Reach’s way of going about it. #however, there needs to be some kind of way of telling how much sprint you have, one thing that I didn’t like in 4. If it were to be removed, though, the movement speed needs to be massively revamped. Halo 3 is so boring to me, for this reason- it’s too slow.

Sprint is bad because it forces the maps to become much bigger than necessary, in order to accomodate the ability to sprint. This in turn generally produces maps that aren’t that good and are poorly designed. The difference in quality between Halo 3 maps and Halo 4’s are largely due to this.

It also means that you can’t fire your weapon/throw grenades etc whilst you are sprinting, meaning that firefights can be decided on catching people at the right time etc, rather than pure skill. It also gives people a get out of jail free card for bad positioning or getting into fights which they would lose otherwise.

Custom loadouts are generally balanced apart from the plasma pistol, boltshot and plasma grenades. It’s perks that are the real problem, creating randomness and therefore unbalanced firefights. Do they have an extra grenade or unlimited sprint? For instance. I like the idea of balancing weapons, however, as I get sick of starting with an AR or BR all the time.

No offence but some AA’s are overpowered, notably Jetpack, Promethean and Camo, I generally like AA’s but they should be on the power level of hologram or shield, not make you invisible or see through walls…

I really don’t feel like arguing about loadouts for five pages against so I’ll just stick with sprint.

Sprint leads to upscaled map size (i.e. decreased emphasis on strafe), it leads to less flow (sprinting and stopping instead of constant movement and shooting), leads to people running away more often, makes cover easier to get to, discourages shooting while moving to cover.

Open Halo 3. Set base speed to 200 and play on a map similar in size to Citadel. I can guarantee movement won’t feel slow, rather it will feel way too fast.

I like games without sprint because I don’t feel restricted in movement. In TF2 I can out-run and out-jump anyone as the Scout without having to stop shooting or stay on the ground. That’s way more fun and intense than being grounded and walk-shoot-sprinting around everywhere.

I’ve recently jumped back and forth between Halo 3 and Halo 4, and what struck me was how much different the combat is.

It’s much harder to get kills in Halo 3, but in most every engagement, you find yourself on an even field with your opponent. Comming out on top comes down to who employs the best strategy: how you use your grenades, the map, even how well you move and dodge plays a huge factor.

In Halo 4, the outcome of an engagement has more to do with who has the better weapon/equipment for the situation. It is both easier and harder to get kills because each engagement relies more on chance than any real measure of skill. The unpredictability that loadouts add to the game really make it feel like you’re earning kills based on luck, rather than outsmarting or outplaying your opponent. I’m not saying that this is inherently a bad thing, but I think that loadouts offer far too much randomness to the game. Being about to choose your desired precision or assault weapon is fine, but it’s when a player can spawn with active camo and a cheapshot in their back pocket, any meaningful sense of skill, or achievement, disappears.

Sprint, as others have said, results in a countless amount of issues with the most prominent being the following:

  • Increased map size. This results in most engagements favoring mid ranges and thus resulting in the BR or the Carbine being the most effective weapons. Additionally, it effectively makes classic gamemodes without sprint incompatible with the map sizes.
  • The “Get-Outta-Jail-Free” card effect. Because of the sprint, people will often run away from combat once they start to fail, leading to gameplay being ironically slowed down despite the faster movement speed. The “Resistor” perk makes it even worse.
    Personal Loadouts, on the other hand, don’t bother me too much in concept. However, their execution in Halo 4 was a tremulous terror.

I’d be fine with them if they offered primary weapons only, or better yet, a “pick two” system that allows players to pick any two weapons to spawn with out of a small, yet balanced and hopefully diverse, selection.

> In Halo 4, the outcome of an engagement has more to do with who has the better weapon/equipment for the situation.

Of course in Halo 4 you’re guaranteed to hit most shots, thus weapon battles only come down to “I had the statistically better gun”. There’s not a lot of an aiming skill gap. I’ll get to that below.

> The unpredictability that loadouts add to the game really make it feel like you’re earning kills based on luck

Here’s something to consider:

In CSGO the AK, SG550, and AWP can all kill in one shot at any range. What sets them apart is their difficulty of use at ranges outside of their optimal range.

Pre-TU, a Lightrifle and a BR could go head to head. The Lightrifle has a scope-unscope trick that lets it match/exceed the BR’s killtime, but it was significantly more difficult than just plain aiming at someone with a BR. The Lightrifle wasn’t limited by killtime, only user skill.

Another example, an AR can beat a BR at medium-ish range but it has less aim assist at that range and is therefore more difficult. Again, user skill comes into play more than theoretical numbers do.

Besides those few examples, most guns in Halo 4 require the same skill at all ranges, only being separated by their effective killtimes. Meaning almost the only thing determining battles is who had the better positioning (which may not be bad, but I guess I’d have to concede it’s more restrictive).

About unpredictability, again citing CSGO (I know, bear with me), I know there will almost always be an AWP at long range, or an M4/AK at a medium range sightline. Early game I can expect SMG’s/Shotguns in close quarters. People can buy anything but that doesn’t make their behavior any harder to predict. No one is going to try to snipe with an SMG or use a Scout at point blank.

Or if I see someone camping balcony on adrift, it’s pretty safe to assume they are using a DMR or BR and not a close range weapon. In which case I either try to flank them or engage them head on depending on what weapon I currently have.

Seriously? You created a new topic asking why sprint and loadouts break gameplay even though there are several active topics and hundreds of dead topics explaining such? Why didn’t you just post in one of the existing active topics?

https://forums.halowaypoint.com/yaf_postst243321_What-was-wrong-with-sprint.aspx
https://forums.halowaypoint.com/yaf_postst242811_Do-you-really-think-343-will-scrap-Infinity.aspx

> Seriously? You created a new topic asking why sprint and loadouts break gameplay even though there are several active topics and hundreds of dead topics explaining such? Why didn’t you just post in one of the existing active topics?
>
> https://forums.halowaypoint.com/yaf_postst243321_What-was-wrong-with-sprint.aspx
> https://forums.halowaypoint.com/yaf_postst242811_Do-you-really-think-343-will-scrap-Infinity.aspx

Sprint threads never die. They just go missing in action.

I can’t wait until someone inevitably makes a fourth. But then again, what else do we have to talk about until e3?

> Sprint, as others have said, results in a countless amount of issues with the most prominent being the following:
> - Increased map size. This results in most engagements favoring mid ranges and thus resulting in the BR or the Carbine being the most effective weapons. Additionally, it effectively makes classic gamemodes without sprint incompatible with the map sizes.
> - The “Get-Outta-Jail-Free” card effect. Because of the sprint, people will often run away from combat once they start to fail, leading to gameplay being ironically slowed down despite the faster movement speed. The “Resistor” perk makes it even worse.
> Personal Loadouts, on the other hand, don’t bother me too much in concept. However, their execution in Halo 4 was a tremulous terror.
>
> I’d be fine with them if they offered primary weapons only, or better yet, a “pick two” system that allows players to pick any two weapons to spawn with out of a small, yet balanced and hopefully diverse, selection.

Completely Agree Andy

I don’t like having to have a Tactical Package or a Support Upgrade just to have a decent amount of ammo for my AR, so those should be removed and players should be able to carry 352 extra rounds again. But besides that, I like the idea of Personal Loadouts. People can start out with weapons they’re good with, and I’m pleased with it.

> Seriously? You created a new topic asking why sprint and loadouts break gameplay even though there are several active topics and hundreds of dead topics explaining such? Why didn’t you just post in one of the existing active topics?
>
> https://forums.halowaypoint.com/yaf_postst243321_What-was-wrong-with-sprint.aspx
> https://forums.halowaypoint.com/yaf_postst242811_Do-you-really-think-343-will-scrap-Infinity.aspx

Actually, I posted this as a discussion. The others were more or less not discussions.

> I’ve heard it before, and I do accept it. I do understand what it does for Map design and gameplay, but it just… feels better, I guess. Its one of those things you can’t explain.
>
> I have played devil’s advocate with this before, and I do see the plus side of the argument.
>
> Let’s keep the discussion going.

How does not being able to traverse a map at the speed it was built for while simultaneously shooting feel better?

> > I’ve heard it before, and I do accept it. I do understand what it does for Map design and gameplay, but it just… feels better, I guess. Its one of those things you can’t explain.
> >
> > I have played devil’s advocate with this before, and I do see the plus side of the argument.
> >
> > Let’s keep the discussion going.
>
> How does not being able to traverse a map at the speed it was built for while simultaneously shooting feel better?

Well, for starters, its a bit more intimidating to charge a position than leisurely walking there.

Also, Sprint does make you vulnerable. I hope 343i finds out a way to balance walking and sprinting with maps, because either don’t really think Sprint’s going anywhere(pun intended).

But I really don’t like how Halo 4 screwed with the control scheme. I much preferred the Halo Reach controls.

My idea is that Sprint would have to be toggled with your AA by pressing up on the D-pad. This would make it a bit more strategic. However, if Sprint is an AA, I’m fine with that.

But they need to make the BR sound better. It sounds like a synthesizer recorded a barfing walrus and amped up the bass.

I don’t have a dog in the dog in the Sprint debate (I could take it or leave, but if I take it, I don’t want H4’s version).

For Loadouts, the problem rests in the following areas:

Perks. They just have no business being in Halo.

Unbalanced Weapons. Boltshot. Plasma Pistol. Sticky Grenades.

AA’s. They’re just not balanced right. I’m not giving up on them, but I also don’t think Halo 4 had the right formula.

If you address the above and limit loadouts to a choice of primary/sidearm, that would be a totally decent loadout option IMHO. Stick in adequately balanced AA’s + Map equipment and you could have something really fun.

> > > I’ve heard it before, and I do accept it. I do understand what it does for Map design and gameplay, but it just… feels better, I guess. Its one of those things you can’t explain.
> > >
> > > I have played devil’s advocate with this before, and I do see the plus side of the argument.
> > >
> > > Let’s keep the discussion going.
> >
> > How does not being able to traverse a map at the speed it was built for while simultaneously shooting feel better?
>
> Well, for starters, its a bit more intimidating to charge a position than leisurely walking there.
>
> Also, Sprint does make you vulnerable. I hope 343i finds out a way to balance walking and sprinting with maps, because either don’t really think Sprint’s going anywhere(pun intended).
>
> But I really don’t like how Halo 4 screwed with the control scheme. I much preferred the Halo Reach controls.
>
> My idea is that Sprint would have to be toggled with your AA by pressing up on the D-pad. This would make it a bit more strategic. However, if Sprint is an AA, I’m fine with that.
>
> But they need to make the BR sound better. It sounds like a synthesizer recorded a barfing walrus and amped up the bass.

It wasn’t leisurely walking; you were always sprinting in classic Halo.
Somebody running and shooting at you is more intimidating than somebody just running toward you.
Now, it’s like he can’t run and shoot at the same time. Pfft.

I agree; the BR sounds dreadful. I hated using it because of that alone.