Maybe someone else made a post about this but I haven’t heard anyone talk about it yet. I think a small part of the puzzle in helping UNSC could be the hornets. They cost 375 supplies and use 4 population. I found it interesting that it is almost impossible to double pump them unless you already have a ton of supplies saved up. Maybe we could shave down the cost a little. The Banshee costs 300 supplies, uses 3 population and is also anti air when upgraded. What are some ideas for 343 to use on improving hornets? I don’t want to read people arguing over who’s idea is more logical so be nice.
MAKE THE WINGMEN UPGRADE USEFUL.
Give them hornets some sting. Them banshees have had a aweful reign… UNSC units were suppose to be stronger than aliens for the most part. Not saying banshees should be thrown out, they’re suppose to be feared. But they should definitely make the hornets wingmen have extra damage against buildings, maybe as compensation for cost?
As they stand now… Meh…
At 375 supply, they need to stomp Banshees. Make wingmen AA like the bomb and increase the armor, and I’d say the hornet would be in a much better spot.
Also, give them a better damage modifier VS vehicle; the banshees have the bombs, the hornets don’t. It causes a huge disparity in damage.
I love hornets, and really want them to be useable…
I wish they get some helptoo, really is too bad that they are as poor as they are now.
A banshee is 100 per pop. A Hornet is 93.75 per pop.
Hornets are therefore cheaper than Banshees. So it wouldn’t make sense for a Hornet to be better than Banshees. And you can also hit full cap with less resources using hornets, while full cap with Banshees is more expensive.
I agree. They need some sort of boost, either to damage or defense.
I like the idea of them being extra strong against buildings, but that’s kind of where vultures are at already.
> 2533274821521504;5:
> A banshee is 100 per pop. A Hornet is 93.75 per pop.
>
> Hornets are therefore cheaper than Banshees. So it wouldn’t make sense for a Hornet to be better than Banshees. And you can also hit full cap with less resources using hornets, while full cap with Banshees is more expensive.
Instead of always bashing UNSC units and begging for Banished upgrades, you should try to stand in somebody else’s shoes. Hornets are extremely weak considering their cost and cost of upgrades in comparison to banshees. You are paying for a “better” unit and they lose against something weaker. Last time I checked 375 > 300.
> 2533274819015943;7:
> > 2533274821521504;5:
> > A banshee is 100 per pop. A Hornet is 93.75 per pop.
> >
> > Hornets are therefore cheaper than Banshees. So it wouldn’t make sense for a Hornet to be better than Banshees. And you can also hit full cap with less resources using hornets, while full cap with Banshees is more expensive.
>
> Instead of always bashing UNSC units and begging for Banished upgrades, you should try to stand in somebody else’s shoes. Hornets are extremely weak considering their cost and cost of upgrades in comparison to banshees. You are paying for a “better” unit and they lose against something weaker. Last time I checked 375 > 300.
He isn’t bashing the UNSC at all - he is stating fact.
I think hornets could use a bit of a buff in someway but they do not need to be identical to banshees to be viable. Some uniqueness to them whether it be improved damage against vehicles or buildings or possibly making them faster could potentially help them be a bit more viable.
> 2533274819015943;7:
> > 2533274821521504;5:
> > A banshee is 100 per pop. A Hornet is 93.75 per pop.
> >
> > Hornets are therefore cheaper than Banshees. So it wouldn’t make sense for a Hornet to be better than Banshees. And you can also hit full cap with less resources using hornets, while full cap with Banshees is more expensive.
>
> Instead of always bashing UNSC units and begging for Banished upgrades, you should try to stand in somebody else’s shoes. Hornets are extremely weak considering their cost and cost of upgrades in comparison to banshees. You are paying for a “better” unit and they lose against something weaker. Last time I checked 375 > 300.
I didn’t bash anything. Just telling the truth.
Well. The logic: 1pop cost is 93.75 if you put it that way they are cheaper but… 
hahahaha
The logic: you’ll get less them than banshees and will lose to banshees every time.
If I make 3Banshees and you make 3Hornets, Hornets cost more and loses. So what’s the the logic that Hornets are cheaper again?
Mathematics these days…
IMO the only “good” hornets are double Redline Hornets or Time for Heroes hornets. On every other leader they are not worth investing. Banshees on the other hand are great with every Banished leader, and are superb with Decimus and Colony passives. Main issue here is that banshees, costing “more” per population but less overall, lets you outnumber hornets and with their AA upgrade totally wipe Hornets, as well as Vultures and Condors. The only benefit to running Hornets is having Gales alongside them, as those are far superior to the slow Engineers. But still, Banshees and Engineers will always beat Hornets and Gales.
Simple fix: make the wing-man upgrade also AA. Then Hornets and Gales, the more expensive and cost intensive army, would win. That’s all they really need.
> 2533274807562680;11:
> IMO the only “good” hornets are double Redline Hornets or Time for Heroes hornets. On every other leader they are not worth investing. Banshees on the other hand are great with every Banished leader, and are superb with Decimus and Colony passives. Main issue here is that banshees, costing “more” per population but less overall, lets you outnumber hornets and with their AA upgrade totally wipe Hornets, as well as Vultures and Condors. The only benefit to running Hornets is having Gales alongside them, as those are far superior to the slow Engineers. But still, Banshees and Engineers will always beat Hornets and Gales.
>
> Simple fix: make the wing-man upgrade also AA. Then Hornets and Gales, the more expensive and cost intensive army, would win. That’s all they really need.
I agree here.
Banished passives and buffs really affect the overall power of banshees, and make them much superior to what they are as a standard unit.
UNSC has far fewer LPs that influence air power.
Even Arbiter’s conduit buff makes banshees super good.
> 2533274796391115;12:
> > 2533274807562680;11:
> > IMO the only “good” hornets are double Redline Hornets or Time for Heroes hornets. On every other leader they are not worth investing. Banshees on the other hand are great with every Banished leader, and are superb with Decimus and Colony passives. Main issue here is that banshees, costing “more” per population but less overall, lets you outnumber hornets and with their AA upgrade totally wipe Hornets, as well as Vultures and Condors. The only benefit to running Hornets is having Gales alongside them, as those are far superior to the slow Engineers. But still, Banshees and Engineers will always beat Hornets and Gales.
> >
> > Simple fix: make the wing-man upgrade also AA. Then Hornets and Gales, the more expensive and cost intensive army, would win. That’s all they really need.
>
> I agree here.
> Banished passives and buffs really affect the overall power of banshees, and make them much superior to what they are as a standard unit.
> UNSC has far fewer LPs that influence air power.
> Even Arbiter’s conduit buff makes banshees super good.
Not to mention mixing in skitterer banshees for the damage and health buff, or using Atriox’s invincibility and dying breath banshees to eliminate their counters entirely. UNSC doesn’t have an real way to benefit hornets, so they just need a blanket buff to either keep up or be just behind passive buffed banshees.
> 2533274807562680;13:
> > 2533274796391115;12:
> > > 2533274807562680;11:
> > > IMO the only “good” hornets are double Redline Hornets or Time for Heroes hornets. On every other leader they are not worth investing. Banshees on the other hand are great with every Banished leader, and are superb with Decimus and Colony passives. Main issue here is that banshees, costing “more” per population but less overall, lets you outnumber hornets and with their AA upgrade totally wipe Hornets, as well as Vultures and Condors. The only benefit to running Hornets is having Gales alongside them, as those are far superior to the slow Engineers. But still, Banshees and Engineers will always beat Hornets and Gales.
> > >
> > > Simple fix: make the wing-man upgrade also AA. Then Hornets and Gales, the more expensive and cost intensive army, would win. That’s all they really need.
> >
> > I agree here.
> > Banished passives and buffs really affect the overall power of banshees, and make them much superior to what they are as a standard unit.
> > UNSC has far fewer LPs that influence air power.
> > Even Arbiter’s conduit buff makes banshees super good.
>
> Not to mention mixing in skitterer banshees for the damage and health buff, or using Atriox’s invincibility and dying breath banshees to eliminate their counters entirely. UNSC doesn’t have an real way to benefit hornets, so they just need a blanket buff to either keep up or be just behind passive buffed banshees.
I think the balance comes in with wolverines. They’re fast, effective against air, and affordable. I’ve found them to be much more useful than reavers at least.
I do agree. Hornets need something. As is, I almost never see them used.
Although, they’re so rare that when opponents push a lot of them, it usually catches me off guard. So, at least they can have the element of surprise.
EDIT: Forge’s combat salvage is probably useful for saving some Hornets, but it wouldn’t necessarily allow you to keep pushing like Atriox’s buffs do.
> 2533274821521504;5:
> A banshee is 100 per pop. A Hornet is 93.75 per pop.
>
> Hornets are therefore cheaper than Banshees. So it wouldn’t make sense for a Hornet to be better than Banshees. And you can also hit full cap with less resources using hornets, while full cap with Banshees is more expensive.
Flawed logic is flawed. Your math is not wrong, but 1 banshee beats 1 hornet, and full pop banshees beat full pop hornets.
Did you guys know that one fully upgraded hornet will defeat one fully upgraded banshee?
The only reason banshee’s win, is because they have strength in numbers.
If you went head to head with the same number of units (not talking about pop count, but unit count), the hornets will win.
A buddy of mine and I tested it in custom match. Try it out! We used Johnson and Atriox, since they don’t have any passive powers that would affect the outcome.
> 2641843709998544;15:
> > 2533274821521504;5:
> > A banshee is 100 per pop. A Hornet is 93.75 per pop.
> >
> > Hornets are therefore cheaper than Banshees. So it wouldn’t make sense for a Hornet to be better than Banshees. And you can also hit full cap with less resources using hornets, while full cap with Banshees is more expensive.
>
> Flawed logic is flawed. Your math is not wrong, but 1 banshee beats 1 hornet, and full pop banshees beat full pop hornets.
That’s what I’m saying.
> 2641843709998544;15:
> > 2533274821521504;5:
> > A banshee is 100 per pop. A Hornet is 93.75 per pop.
> >
> > Hornets are therefore cheaper than Banshees. So it wouldn’t make sense for a Hornet to be better than Banshees. And you can also hit full cap with less resources using hornets, while full cap with Banshees is more expensive.
>
> Flawed logic is flawed. Your math is not wrong, but 1 banshee beats 1 hornet, and full pop banshees beat full pop hornets.
Blake I’m a afraid Swat is right although that is an interesting thought. If you move a hornet up to 10 population then he would cost even cheaper supply per pop, but don’t you see how much more that would hurt the hornet regardless of how low the cost to population ratio is? Just trying to help.
> 2533274821521504;5:
> A banshee is 100 per pop. A Hornet is 93.75 per pop.
>
> Hornets are therefore cheaper than Banshees. So it wouldn’t make sense for a Hornet to be better than Banshees. And you can also hit full cap with less resources using hornets, while full cap with Banshees is more expensive.
That’s not the issue. The issue is that Banshees retain usefulness throughout the entire game, from the moment you get them to the end of the game. They get better over time and power spike HARD at tech 3. Hornets, however, don’t justify their cost or population count.
There are more factors at play than just population vs cost effectiveness. If I’m paying for an oversized pile of trash it’s still a pile of trash, regardless of how much I’m spending or how much room it takes up.
Banshees serve their role as core air unit perfectly. Hornets don’t have anything going for them and their one upgrade is laughable at best. Almost no one uses hornets and nor should they. The only time you do that is if you’re going for some element of surprise which is rarely going to work out in your favor.
Hornets need help.
> 2533274812650916;19:
> > 2533274821521504;5:
> > A banshee is 100 per pop. A Hornet is 93.75 per pop.
> >
> > Hornets are therefore cheaper than Banshees. So it wouldn’t make sense for a Hornet to be better than Banshees. And you can also hit full cap with less resources using hornets, while full cap with Banshees is more expensive.
>
> That’s not the issue. The issue is that Banshees retain usefulness throughout the entire game, from the moment you get them to the end of the game. They get better over time and power spike HARD at tech 3. Hornets, however, don’t justify their cost or population count.
>
> There are more factors at play than just population vs cost effectiveness. If I’m paying for an oversized pile of trash it’s still a pile of trash, regardless of how much I’m spending or how much room it takes up.
>
> Banshees serve their role as core air unit perfectly. Hornets don’t have anything going for them and their one upgrade is laughable at best. Almost no one uses hornets and nor should they. The only time you do that is if you’re going for some element of surprise which is rarely going to work out in your favor.
>
> Hornets need help.
For the record, I’m not saying that hornets are fine. My only purpose was to make sure people stop pretending hornets are more expensive than Banshees.
I know hornets are not fine, main reason is because you hardly ever see them in a game. To me they suffer the same issue as grunts: their upgrades are complete garbage, although statwise they might be OK.