Honestly curious about forerunner weapons.

The first Halo game I touched was 3, playing it with my cousins many years ago, and one of the things that drew me into the franchise with Reach and 4 was weapon diversity. Now, say all you want about Halo 4 but preferably not in this thread because it’s a whole other can of worms, but playing mostly with the lightrifle (in 4 and the Beta) and carbine myself, I have to wonder–

Why are the majority of allowed weapons in the Halo competitive scene (at least 4’s and 5’s–3 felt more diverse) UNSC-only from everything I’ve seen? It seems to be a trend, and I honestly don’t get it. Lightrifle in the beta had an interesting niche: It was a perfect long-range weapon that wasn’t flat-out overbearing, but could get some stuff done. It felt to me like the middle ground between DMR and a sniper, and I really enjoyed that about it. So, watching the gamescom matches, I have to wonder why both it and the carbine were sadly absent. I can understand if the case is that they’re meant for specific maps–that’s fine. But if they’re completely left out of anything competitive and especially if they’re left out of area PvP, I have something to say about that. As a competitive Super Smash Bros. player as well, I enjoy having options and diversity for playstyles.

I don’t know, I’d just be really reluctant to care about 5 if the competitive scene becomes “UNSC weapons + sword/PC only, only Empire” or something along those lines. To me, Halo is special because it tells some interesting stories about the prominent species within the universe. In essence, the lore is pretty interesting, and I love me some sci-fi lore. Part of that lore and its appeal is that it’s immersive. If I want a human-only perspective of the future with a hint of alien tech maybe, I can play Titanfall or CoD or something. For me, playing Halo doesn’t feel the same if it doesn’t feel like a universe filled with many cultures and different technological routes taken by those cultures.

I understand the main appeal of 5 is the whole map/weapon control thing and some people think that that and weapon diversity are mutually exclusive for some reason? I just want to know if there’s anyone else out there who has the same opinion as me on this and prefers a harmonious blend of weapon/map control and weapon diversity. Map diversity would be nice too, because frankly I find it more challenging and skillful to masterfully acquaint oneself with more than a few maps. Sorry if I’m completely out of the loop though, my main focus is my life, art, and Smash. Halo is something I look forward to learning more about in the future, so I guess I’m starting now.

Well lore wise at least with halo 4 the multiplayer was a simulation for the Spartan -IV’s to train. So I guess that could be the reason why there is so many UNSC weapons. But I think in the past the kind of weapon found in match is purely based on the kind of map your playing on.

> 2535446424293227;1:
> Why are the majority of allowed weapons in the Halo competitive scene (at least 4’s and 5’s–3 felt more diverse) UNSC-only from everything I’ve seen?

Competitive settings don’t intentionally pick UNSC weapons exclusively. It’s simply a matter of picking weapons that aren’t redundant, aren’t useless and generally require more player skill to use that others. This is why weapons like plasma rifles, spikers, needlers, etc aren’t in competitive settings.

H3 had the carbine as a map pickup. The mauler was used in place of the shotgun for balance reasons. The only other weapons that appeared aside from BRs were the UNSC sniper (chosen because the ammo system is preferably to the beam rifle charge system) and rockets. This means about 1/3 of the weapons were non-human.

In H4 there were huge weapon balance problems with some guns that meant they didn’t belong in competive play. The binary rifle was basically a “noob-sniper” since headshots weren’t required so it didn’t make the cut. The fuel rod was far too powerful, basically acting as a high ammo, mid range shotgun. The incineration cannon was a rocket launcher that you could miss almost completely with and still get kills.

H5 doesn’t have competitive settings yet.

At the end of the day, weapons are picked for competitive settings based on function, balance and skill requirements. It just so happens that most non-human weapons seem to behave as gimmicky or overpowered versions of a human counterpart which makes them either redundant or unfit for competitive play. Competitive settings don’t care a bit about the lore of the game.

Thank you for answering!

I can agree with some of them being “gimmicky”, but is there a reason they couldn’t, say, make different maps with different weapon sets? Also I realize some of Halo 4’s balance issues (god the beam rifle was so easy to no-scope with in 4), but those can be easily changed for 5. For example, for a map that was extremely large and uncharacteristically open-fielded, they could issue the binary rifle for that (make it a single-shot round if necessary). I already felt like with how obvious it was when a binary rifle was trained on you, combined with Halo 5’s new movement options, it wouldn’t be a problem to avoid, but would offer a different playstyle. The player using the weapon would have to get extremely good at training the hip fire sights on a faraway opponent before scoping in, not allowing the victim much time to react. Given that the ammo cartridge is already tiny in the Binary Rifle, and given how awfully inaccurate it is at close range, I think it could make for an interesting alternative match. Movement would be the same, fundamentals and engine physics would be the same, but the weapons would require different use of those tools and basics. In this case, the weapon design would allow for some long-range combat, but also not make it over-centralizing per se, and also encourage movement and closer-range combat, which you wouldn’t expect to see on a huge, open map. Essentially, changing the weapons also allows for different kinds of maps, the likes of which haven’t been seen in Halo before.

Also incoming less-important opinions that still illustrate my point:

  • Incineration Cannon I felt was fine because of the absurd reload time, the single-round and slow firing rate, and also the obviousness of the projectile as it travelled. I realize others may not agree though.

  • Fuel Rod was just dumb in 4, lol. Way too easy to just camp in the tighter areas with it, spam it in a burst to ensure a kill, and hold onto it without the ammo expiring. That thing would honestly just need a serious ammo nerf and it would be fine.

  • I do agree some weapons are straight up repetitive though, like the suppressor and storm rifle compared to the AR. Honestly, the differences are so trivial you could make them AR skins and it wouldn’t really change much. Though it would not bother me as much if they will not be included in competitive in some form, I still think altogether avoiding them, or not trying to do something with them would be a missed opportunity.
    LRs, however, to me felt too different to be something to just glance over. If you left it up to me, I’d completely remove the DMR (too close to the BR in function but worse where it counts and not very good at what it’s supposed to excel at). LR however is purposely to swap the BR’s advantages and disadvantages in range. It’s pretty much a BR counter that also functions as a reliable mid range weapon, but not the best. I find that very interesting, honestly. Plus, I have to admit some bias–it just looks and sounds badass.

TL;DR – opinions.

Also, important question: Who… decides the ruleset for the weapons and maps? If the answer is “MLG”, then I mean, “who are the individuals who choose”? I ask because in Smash competitive, usually tournament organizers have the final say in the rules, and attendance is based partially on their rules and how much people like them. Generally, however, we try to keep the community as the main deciding factor, not an organization or the way the elites prefer. Many good arguments come from players who don’t place top but are good at theory. Currently there is a debate for Smash for Wii U rules… The debate is between – 2 lives & 6 minutes, versus 3 lives and 8 minutes. We’re still trying to figure out the speed of the game and what’s the most fun, and I’m curious… is it the same case here? Do WE decide? Or do top players decide?

> 2535446424293227;4:
> Thank you for answering!
>
> I can agree with some of them being “gimmicky”, but is there a reason they couldn’t, say, make different maps with different weapon sets? Also I realize some of Halo 4’s balance issues (god the beam rifle was so easy to no-scope with in 4), but those can be easily changed for 5. For example, for a map that was extremely large and uncharacteristically open-fielded, they could issue the binary rifle for that (make it a single-shot round if necessary). I already felt like with how obvious it was when a binary rifle was trained on you, combined with Halo 5’s new movement options, it wouldn’t be a problem to avoid, but would offer a different playstyle. The player using the weapon would have to get extremely good at training the hip fire sights on a faraway opponent before scoping in, not allowing the victim much time to react. Given that the ammo cartridge is already tiny in the Binary Rifle, and given how awfully inaccurate it is at close range, I think it could make for an interesting alternative match. Movement would be the same, fundamentals and engine physics would be the same, but the weapons would require different use of those tools and basics. In this case, the weapon design would allow for some long-range combat, but also not make it over-centralizing per se, and also encourage movement and closer-range combat, which you wouldn’t expect to see on a huge, open map. Essentially, changing the weapons also allows for different kinds of maps, the likes of which haven’t been seen in Halo before.
>
> Also incoming less-important opinions that still illustrate my point:
>
>
>
> - Incineration Cannon I felt was fine because of the absurd reload time, the single-round and slow firing rate, and also the obviousness of the projectile as it travelled. I realize others may not agree though.
>
> - Fuel Rod was just dumb in 4, lol. Way too easy to just camp in the tighter areas with it, spam it in a burst to ensure a kill, and hold onto it without the ammo expiring. That thing would honestly just need a serious ammo nerf and it would be fine.
>
> - I do agree some weapons are straight up repetitive though, like the suppressor and storm rifle compared to the AR. Honestly, the differences are so trivial you could make them AR skins and it wouldn’t really change much. Though it would not bother me as much if they will not be included in competitive in some form, I still think altogether avoiding them, or not trying to do something with them would be a missed opportunity.
> LRs, however, to me felt too different to be something to just glance over. If you left it up to me, I’d completely remove the DMR (too close to the BR in function but worse where it counts and not very good at what it’s supposed to excel at). LR however is purposely to swap the BR’s advantages and disadvantages in range. It’s pretty much a BR counter that also functions as a reliable mid range weapon, but not the best. I find that very interesting, honestly. Plus, I have to admit some bias–it just looks and sounds badass.
>
> TL;DR – opinions.
>
> Also, important question: Who… decides the ruleset for the weapons and maps? If the answer is “MLG”, then I mean, “who are the individuals who choose”? I ask because in Smash competitive, usually tournament organizers have the final say in the rules, and attendance is based partially on their rules and how much people like them. Generally, however, we try to keep the community as the main deciding factor, not an organization or the way the elites prefer. Many good arguments come from players who don’t place top but are good at theory. Currently there is a debate for Smash for Wii U rules… The debate is between – 2 lives & 6 minutes, versus 3 lives and 8 minutes. We’re still trying to figure out the speed of the game and what’s the most fun, and I’m curious… is it the same case here? Do WE decide? Or do top players decide?

Well, I agree with some and disagree with some.

I dislike the core concept of the binary rifle and never want to see something like it in competitive Halo. Having a player focus on getting the hipfire lined up for a scoped shot isn’t a new concept to players. It’s the same skillset used with the human sniper. The difference is, it’s 1) not exciting to see someone body-shot someone with a binary 2) the human sniper has consistent no-scope capability for really cool plays. This makes the human sniper objectively and subjectively better. More fun to use, less annoying to fight against and provides more cool plays for spectators to enjoy.

The incineration cannon was still ultimately just a redundant rocket launcher. It did nothing the human rocket couldn’t do except that it was even more lenient to missed shots and borderline impossible for players to evade or outplay aside from the user simply completely missing his shot. What I would rather see is the Reach grenade launcher. That was a truly great addition to the game that I’m sad to see gone. The bounce mechanic make it interesting to see what kinds of angles and skill-shots players could use it for while the blast radius was relatively small but direct hits were kills. This meant it was a cool weapon to use, wasn’t overpowered but in the right hands could be used creatively to get entertaining and satisfying kills.

I also agree LRs should replace DMRs. The DMR is redundant now and is basically just a boring long range BR while the LR has a somewhat unique function that makes it superior at long range without being overpowered. It has a use and is the kind of weapon I would happily drop a BR for on larger maps.

Who decides? Well, not MLG since they don’t have Halo anymore. But the organization which organizes the events will talk with current players, retired players on their payroll and some select members of their community for feedback on what goes in and what comes out for their tournament settings. They also go through playtesting. The problem with having the community set the rules is that the community doesn’t always have the best or most educated opinions. They might wholeheartedly support a change in one version then immediately regret it once the version is released and it doesn’t work the way they wanted. These organizations are putting their financial success on the success of their events, it is in their best interest to have settings that appeal to the pros playing and the spectators watching alike.

Interesting. Never thought of the spectator perspective. In Smash, every character is free game and we almost never have problems with stalling/circle-camping or infinite combos that go past a certain % to make the game unfun to watch (those ARE banned, but I just have never had to think about them because it’s so rare). What I’m getting at is, we play what’s available, even if some characters are flat out carbon copies of each other with on attribute to make them “different”. So… different perspective? But I completely respect that. Halo folks were built around that streamer hype support and while Smash lately has gotten it, we’re very grassroots so streaming hasn’t ever really… defined our community. It’s more of, it’s defined BY it.

Thank you, again, for answering. Let’s cross our fingers and hope the DMR gets replaced by LR in rulesets? I could live with that.

> 2535446424293227;6:
> Interesting. Never thought of the spectator perspective. In Smash, every character is free game and we almost never have problems with stalling/circle-camping or infinite combos that go past a certain % to make the game unfun to watch (those ARE banned, but I just have never had to think about them because it’s so rare). What I’m getting at is, we play what’s available, even if some characters are flat out carbon copies of each other with on attribute to make them “different”. So… different perspective? But I completely respect that. Halo folks were built around that streamer hype support and while Smash lately has gotten it, we’re very grassroots so streaming hasn’t ever really… defined our community. It’s more of, it’s defined BY it.
>
> Thank you, again, for answering. Let’s cross our fingers and hope the DMR gets replaced by LR in rulesets? I could live with that.

Judging from past settings used in Halo I’d say it’s likely both the DMR and LR will appear as map pickups and players can pick up either one based on preference. Which is fine, I’d prefer the LR myself.

And you’re welcome.

> 2535446424293227;1:
> The first Halo game I touched was 3

Did it touch you back or was it a one-sided affair. It took advantage of you didn’t it?