Help me understand MLG

Games Other Halo
1

Greetings all,

It’s not my intent to start a flame war, but the way things have gone, it will probably happen nonetheless.

Upfront, I’m a casual, self-proclaimed noob-for-life. I have enjoyed all the iterations of Halo multiplayer, suffice it to say I DO NOT consider myself that good.

But I have fun and I sincerely agree with the argument that there needs to be room for both casuals and MLG/competitive players.

But here’s what I don’t understand.

Why does MLG have to be stripped-down mechanics and completely balanced map to be competitive? While the balanced map part I get, outside of the plethora of power weapon drops on some of these maps, why can’t the basic elements of H4 multiplayer be competitive? It seems competitive to me.

Again, my apologies, there is simply a concept in the MLG somewhere that I’m just not getting when it comes to the term that is used a lot, competitive.

That said, I can’t lie, I wish I had your guys’ skills.

2

I won’t claim to be the expert but as a competitive player i can answer a good bit of your questions. I’ll take it in parts.

> why can’t the basic elements of H4 multiplayer be competitive?

Because Vanilla H4 isn’t. Wetworks+Active Camo+ Stickies+ DMR & Boltshot that can be done in a load out. Yeh it’s not competitive.

What’s being attempted to create is a map flow that isn’t random. What is trying to be done is a setting that promotes teamwork in order to control parts of the map that can decide the tide of a game. With predictable weapon spawns theres a degree of decision making to be done as well as what is the most advantageous to the team.

Example: Rockets spawns on one side of the map the Sniper the other. Your team can only control one. Which is it? Then from there where do you go with it? If your on the other team you know what they have gone after. How do you defend against their choice? Do you buddy up or try to flank?

We play strategic like that. Thats was a rushed and simplified explanation but i hope it helps. Anyone who wants to please expand.

3

Major League Gaming or MLG as most people refer to it is a Pro Circuit that host national tournaments across the nation which features the top players from a variety of certain games.

Halo had previously always been the on the main-stage or the main event of the tournament but recently with the changes made to the previous two halos (Reach,H4) it has taken a step back in the MLG Circuit mostly because the game has to what most people believe less competitive.

This is caused by many different things in game such as custom load-outs, ordnance drops, and maps that don’t provide symmetry or fair advantages for both sides.

For example in previous halos power weapons were based on timers this required teams to keep track of the time and push up when necessary to secure these weapons, now for instance you can have great map control but have no control of securing the weapons you want which completely destroys the competitive aspect of that part of the game. No one who is a competitive gamer wants to pay or play to watch someone win based on their luck with ordinance drops. Their are many other issues with this game but, it would take forever to explain how they don’t mesh with the MLG style of play

I do not believe the game is not competitive due to it meshing with MLG but rather the ranking system. Ever since Halo has switched to a simply xp system the quality of competitiveness of the halo franchise has taken a plunge. It is a bigger deal than most casual gamers understand it allows you to be paired in game with players of your skill level (Which only makes sense) and allows all players to work their way up and most importantly work as a TEAM to WIN which was the basic foundation halo game play was founded.

I believe halo should evolve its game play but needs to still keep its founding principles of competitiveness and fun so that all gamers can be happy 343 has good ideas just needs to put it all together to make it work

Hoped this helped from the opinion of a former Halo 3 MLG fanatic

4

Actually, yeah that helped a lot, thanks.

Again, there wasn’t any disrespect intended, I just couldn’t get why trying to capture the Blue flag on Abandon wasn’t considered competitive.

5

You guys aren’t talking competitive gameplay so much as controllable elements, which aren’t the end all of competitive gameplay. The extreme end is something like Mario Kart, where it operates as a party game first and racing game second - and you can’t foresee who will win no matter the racing experience of the players involved.

In Halo 4 good players will consistently win out over a less skilled or coordinated team, and that to me means there is in fact enough elements to facilitate competitive play and therefore make it a competitive game. It’s not like two teams of overtly different skill levels is a toss up, strategy will win the day.

I feel people liken Halo 4 as a non-competitive game more because they’re unhappy with the changes rather than it actually being noncompetitive in a purely technical sense.

6

This has pretty much already been stated, but…

In Halo CE, multiplayer had all players starting with the same equipment, and victory was based on the team’s ability to control power weapons and positions on the map. Whether you won or lost depended on skill, strategy, and teamwork.

Halo 2 added a couple new weapons and gimmicks like dual wielding, but none of this changed the basic formula of the previous game. It also added a skill rating system, so players could compare themselves to others and work towards bettering their skill with the game.

Halo 3 added equipment, which was the predecessor of armor abilities. Equipment however, was a one-shot map pickup, and was rare enough not to unbalance the game overmuch.

Reach added several things that broke the formula of the game. First was the misimplementation of the bloom mechanic - it was added in such a way that it didn’t actually prevent spamming shots, but in certain instances encouraged it. Halo combat was traditionally centered around precision fire, and the broken bloom allowed spammers to randomly defeat more skilled players that paced their shots properly. Competitive players who based their skill on that precision were understandibly perturbed. The limited loadout system removed the equal starts mechanic of previous games. Several of the armor abilities were unbalancing as well; armor lock was a mid-combat pause button for people getting out-DMRed, and active camo was way too powerful to be a re-usable ability (it was a one-use map pickup in previous games). Moreover, the skill rating system was removed and replaced with a progression rank system, so players didn’t have a way to rate their skill and set a goal for improvement. Skill was no longer the focus of the game, having been replaced by gimmicks.

Halo 4 has worsened the competitive problem. Loadouts have been expanded so that different guns and abilities can be selected, as well as most things having an unlock requirement, so that new players don’t have the same options as experienced ones. Equal starts are a thing of the past. Many of the abilities are unbalancing as well (Pro Vision), and the DMR and Boltshot are out of balance with the other guns in the game (which are fairly balanced amongst themselves). 4’s biggest problem comes in the ordinance drops. No longer is map control or power weapon control important. Players can run willy-nilly all over the map, and pick up a sniper or rockets as soon as the get enough kills. Strategy is irrelevant, because some random jackanape on the other team might get a random Incineration Cannon in his ordanance drop, and completely decimate your team. There is no competition anymore; it’s just a bunch of kids running around in a playpen shooting each other, which is exactly what CoD is, and why I preferred Halo (up until now).

The MLG players are especially POed because the strategy was what made Halo so fun to watch, and now that element has been removed. Halo built MLG, but starting with Reach MLG has begun to put it on the back burner, because there’s not as much interest in watching a game that has no defined competitive element. This is why CoD has never been as big in E-sports, although it outsells Halo.

I still have fun with H4, and I think it has a lot of good points as well, but competitive it isn’t. It’s definitely lost the spirit of the original games.

7

Theories, theories, theories

Taking random elements out of a game should ensure that the over-riding factor remaining that determines the outcome of an event is skill. Strafe, Ghandi Hop, Flag Juggling (when to and when not to) - all tactics to increase skill

. Lag is a problem? Bam go to a LAN, no lag there
. No-one knows when Rockets or Sniper are going to spawn? Bam put a timer on that everyone knows about and hence can fight over for map control to get the advantage
. You kill someone, they spawn behind you then kill you? Bam have fixed / fewer spawn locations.
. People camping in corners watching their radar waiting for you to walk by? Bam turn off radar
. The whole team runs around with Invisibility crouch walking so you can’t find them? Bam get rid of the AA
. 1 weapon far better than the others? Bam get rid of it or move it to placements on the map so it can be fought over and controlled
. Maps not balanced and allow distinct advantage to someone? Bam get rid of them or forge them to make them equal
. Matches take too long and firefight engagements avoided? Bam make small maps that force combat

8

> You guys aren’t talking competitive gameplay so much as controllable elements, which aren’t the end all of competitive gameplay. The extreme end is something like Mario Kart, where it operates as a party game first and racing game second - and you can’t foresee who will win no matter the racing experience of the players involved.
>
> In Halo 4 good players will consistently win out over a less skilled or coordinated team, and that to me means there is in fact enough elements to facilitate competitive play and therefore make it a competitive game. It’s not like two teams of overtly different skill levels is a toss up, strategy will win the day.
>
> I feel people liken Halo 4 as a non-competitive game more because they’re unhappy with the changes rather than it actually being noncompetitive in a purely technical sense.

Have you ever played a MLG game previous to this Halo title? This game is completely random and casual friendly. Do research before writing anything. The MLG crowd tests EVERYTHING to figure out what/how it works. This game has been dumbed down.

Simply put randomness=flipping a coin. How is that competitive at all? This entire game is random from POD to the BR at mid range to long range. DMR is simply too easy to use. Halo 4 is a non-competitive game because they took the skill/strategy out of it. Now we have flag/grenade markers as well as a plethora of other problems with this game. It could be a good game just as every other Halo was terrible pre-TU.

My suggestion to OP is go play a game of MLG with some friends of your skill level and tell me how you enjoy it compared to Infinty Slayer. You will find that the outcome of the match is determined by your choices in the game involving positioning, map control, weapon control,etc. rather than who gets first ordinance drop and what you get in the ordinance drop.

9

You haven’t said a single rebuttal to my post, you just repeated bumper sticker lines that were addressed long ago. You know that, right?

I defined what a competitive game is. If you feel Halo 4 is not competitive, explain to me how rather than say catch phrase like “They took skill out.” That doesn’t actually say anything nor does it address what I said in the post you quoted.

I could actually just re-post that quote as a reply to yours. People refusal to have a conversation is one of the reasons I post less these days. I give a simple to understand overview of what makes a game competitive, and you come in telling if I’ve done my research or played an MLG game? Appeals to authority to impress anyone.

Actually reply to my points, have a conversation with me, otherwise we have nothing to talk about.

10

I consider myself fairly average. In Halo Reach I was pretty much positive K/D in all playlist except MLG and I have to say MLG was by far the place I had the most even matches.

Whenever I died, I got outplayed and I could respect it. In default reach… It was to much of a cake walk and felt like thing were carelessly thrown together.

In MLG I noticed the things that were rewarded were

  1. consistent aim

  2. map knowledge and map control

  3. teamwork

And every1 had a fair shot at using all of these.

Armor abilities are different and as long as this is true then making them feel equal is quite a challenge

11

MLG is about making the game faster and more consistent. The faster it is the harder it is and the more entertaining it becomes. However there are different kinds of “fast,” chaos is not good because audiences want to understand what is going on.

Consistency is extremely important because you’re talking about a game over which money is won and lost, so you can’t have inconsistent features of the game in MLG because then the victories and losses feel less legitimate. If someone is going to get paid $100,000 dollars for winning a video game and you’re writing the check, you want to make damn sure that game is a very consistent one.

Remember always that MLG is a business and their business is making a video game entertaining to watch.

They strip the game down because some weapon require more ability to use, some are inconsistent, and generally audiences can’t keep up with things if you get to video-gamey on them. Simple is easier to regulate, simple is easier to understand, simple is easier to rate on performance, and simple is therefore necessary.

There are lots of people that argue that MLG’s mission is to make Halo better, to “fix Halo”, to bring things back to classic Halo, these people are all wrong.

Some people may prefer MLG’s settings, but MLG’s mission is to make money by filling seats at events, and unlike the people saying these things MLG doesn’t ever pretend it has any other purpose.

If you go to the MLG site and look at their settings they explain everything and they never pretend to be saviors of Halo or anything like it. They say “this weapon was removed because it is inconsistent” or “this setting was changed to encourage players to be aggressive and go after that kill” because aggressive players are faster and more fun to watch than campers. A match full of campers is slow-paced and boring, that is not what MLG wants.

Because the best players get paid to play, and everyone likes the idea of being awesome at something, a lot of good players enter MLG lists to improve and compete in hopes of being proven awesome. Players play harder in the MLG playlists, and the MLG settings are designed to promote fast consistent play, so MLG playlists tend to be the hardest.

If MLG fans started paying to see people get splatters in mongooses, you’d see MLG and sponsors devoting their money and attention to the ideal settings for mongoose splatters and suddenly mongoose splatters would be the most competitive thing you could do in Halo. That’s not meant to be a joke, it’s meant to illustrate the fact that the competitiveness of MLG comes from its fans. If the audience wants to see mongoose splatters, you give them mongoose splatters, because MLG is a business and they are going to do what it takes to sell tickets. MLG doesn’t pretend to be anything else.

I like MLG, but I don’t enjoy watching ANY sport or e-sport and I’m not good enough at the game or hardcore enough to try to be that good at the game, so MLG isn’t my style of gametype.

12

> In Halo 4 good players will consistently win out over a less skilled or coordinated team, and that to me means there is in fact enough elements to facilitate competitive play and therefore make it a competitive game. It’s not like two teams of overtly different skill levels is a toss up, strategy will win the day.

I agree with this, from my experience so far. A team of good players will beat a team of significantly less-skilled players, and the random elements (ordnance, map imbalances, etc.) will have a relatively small impact on the final score.

But that’s probably not a situation that occurs in MLG or serious competitive play, is it? When people call H4 “uncompetitive,” it seems they are usually referring to the experience at the high-end of the skill spectrum. I’m not a competitive player and don’t follow things like MLG at all, but I imagine that even the less-accomplished teams in the competitive scene are still comprised of extremely good players, when compared to the average population of MM.

When both teams are highly skilled, the margin between victory and defeat becomes much smaller (in the sense that it is only very slight differences in execution/decisions/coordination/etc that separate them; the final score itself may still be lopsided if the gametype mechanics create tipping points). Meanwhile, the variance due to random elements has not changed (assuming standard MM settings); using ordnance as the most obvious example, you may still be stuck with a needler or concussion rifle while the other team lucks onto rockets and binaries (or vice versa). In this case, the impact of random elements – which previously mattered little when the skill gap was so large – should have a more noticeable influence on the match.

If the random elements actually can determine the outcomes of competitive matches at the margins, then I can understand why those players would find it unacceptable. I’d assume that ordnance (as it functions in MM) could easily swing a tight game, but as for the other stuff, I don’t have the knowledge to form an opinion.

13

MLG a fair but extremely engaging playlist. Requires fast teamwork and is very very competitive.

14

In Halo, MLG is a playlist, or gametype, if you will.

The intent of MLG is to boil down a game to the most primitive, and skillfull attributes. The more fair that a game is, the more competitive it can become.

MLG often implements changes on maps, changing power locations, weapon hotspots, and spawn areas.

It has always been the purpose of MLG to test your skill against other players with the same circumstances as you; because in matchmaking there are far too many variables that can offset a skillful outcome of a match.

15

There is no real MLG philosophy, just a bunch of people arguing on a forum about what “competitive” means.

What MLG really boils down to is creating gametypes that are not only fun to play, but fun to watch. Now, this ends up being very similar to what people normally refer to as “competitive”, but it’s not really exactly the same.

The problem with default Halo settings is that when all of the players are very skilled and aware, the game slows down to a crawl. In default Halo, the optimum strategy is to camp, because there are so many things you don’t know about the enemy (what weapons/abilities they have, etc.). This doesn’t happen in normal Matchmaking, because most of the time the players aren’t that good and there’s on money at stake. In MLG Halo, there’s a lot at stake, so the amount of “unknowable” things are reduced. This ensures that pushing is a much more effective strategy, because the element of surprise outweighs the element of having something the other team doesn’t know about. That in turn makes Halo actually fun to watch, which increases stream viewership.

Unfortunately Halo has not been performing very well at MLG events the past few years. Some people contend it’s because of the games, and the increasing differences between MLG settings and default settings. I think that has some part of it, but I also think part of it is a natural shift, and another part of it is the incredible amount of team changing that started to occur, ruining team recognition and making it hard for fans to root.

I’m a huge fan of MLG Halo, and have watched practically every tournament (and went to MLG Columbus last year). I love to play the playlist, but I think it might be nearing the end of it’s life. The community is just too fractured, and nobody cares about the players anymore.

16

> If you feel Halo 4 is not competitive, explain to me how rather than say catch phrase like “They took skill out.”

Changes from previous Halo games in Halo 4 to reduce required skill:

  • Aim assist increased substantially.
  • Scope out mechanic removed because it was “too jarring” and replaced with easier to manage flinch mechanic.
  • Friendly fire removed in many playlists because bad kids randomly grenade allies and betray them for power weapons.
  • Bloom reduced so much that it’s nonexistent; DMR overpowered as a result.
  • Boltshot allows start with shotgun-type weapon and all shotgun weapons’ range extended.
  • Tons of indicators added so any uncertainty is removed and games become an exercise of connect-the-dots.
  • Ordinance drops eliminate the need to fight over power weapon spawns.
    This is just off the top of my head - I’ll add more as I think of them.

The point is that many established gameplay mechanics in previous games have been removed or dumbed down to reduce the diffcutly necessary to play the game, in the hope that it will make it more accessible for casual players.

The problem is that casual players don’t stick with the game and grow it - they dabble a bit and then leave. It’s the hardcore competitive players that keep the game going and grow the audience.

Even though I’m not a pro or MLG player, I like the competitive philosophy because it makes the game more challenging, and therefore more satisfying to play and defeat. Like I said before, if I wanted to run around in a playpen with kids randomly shooting each other, I’d play CoD.

17

First off, it’s Gamebattles, not MLG. MLG is not sponsoring Halo right now because Microsoft has a tricky contract with -Yoink!- Gaming but that’s another story.

Competitive game play thrives on map movement, map control, raw skill, team work, and communication. Things like Armor Abilities, Ordinances, and 5v5 promotes a ton of mayhem and hectic play which is not competitive at all. Competitive gaming will always be about the basics of a video game.

When you strip Halo down to it’s basics it really makes your team come together and work as one. It makes you have to make appropriate pushes, call outs, and have individual skill. Normal Halo Settings promote a John Rambo style play. Competitive Gaming needs to be balanced. That means everyone needs to spawn with the same weapons and same Armor Abilities, at least for Halo in my opinion, for it to have the fairest outcome. No game should be decided by fluky Armor Abilities and crazy weapons.

18

> You guys aren’t talking competitive gameplay so much as controllable elements, which aren’t the end all of competitive gameplay. The extreme end is something like Mario Kart, where it operates as a party game first and racing game second - and you can’t foresee who will win no matter the racing experience of the players involved.
>
> In Halo 4 good players will consistently win out over a less skilled or coordinated team, and that to me means there is in fact enough elements to facilitate competitive play and therefore make it a competitive game. It’s not like two teams of overtly different skill levels is a toss up, strategy will win the day.
>
> I feel people liken Halo 4 as a non-competitive game more because they’re unhappy with the changes rather than it actually being noncompetitive in a purely technical sense.

I can see your viewpoint completely and agree wholeheartedly IF the team is more than just slightly better. However we’re talking grand stage (top MLG teams) here, where the best meet the best and it’s usually a knock down drag out fight down to the last kill/cap/point/etc. When ANY miniscule advantage is available to one team and not the other this upsets the balance and can make the difference in that one point to make or break a whole game. In true competition I believe that any randomness or basis of chance or luck hinders competition. Ordinance drops are WAY too luck based as they are in matchmaking now. However they have altered them in MLG settings that are being tested so they only drop balanced items and nothing game breaking. I hope I made some sort of point here, but in all honesty it’s late and I’m tired lol. I’ll check back tomorrow to see if I made any sort of difference, preached something you’ve heard 1000 times already, or missed the point completely.

19

> First off, it’s Gamebattles, not MLG. MLG is not sponsoring Halo right now because Microsoft has a tricky contract with -Yoink!- Gaming but that’s another story.
>
> Competitive game play thrives on map movement, map control, raw skill, team work, and communication. Things like Armor Abilities, Ordinances, and 5v5 promotes a ton of mayhem and hectic play which is not competitive at all. Competitive gaming will always be about the basics of a video game.
>
> When you strip Halo down to it’s basics it really makes your team come together and work as one. It makes you have to make appropriate pushes, call outs, and have individual skill. Normal Halo Settings promote a John Rambo style play. Competitive Gaming needs to be balanced. That means everyone needs to spawn with the same weapons and same Armor Abilities, at least for Halo in my opinion, for it to have the fairest outcome. No game should be decided by fluky Armor Abilities and crazy weapons.

I’m intrigued by this statement, would you mind clarifying the source, or giving a little more detail? I’m not doubting you, I’m just curious as to what possible bull crap -Yoink!- might have done to hinder halo’s competitive side (again)