Halsey - is this the price of freedom?

Community Halo Universe
1

I read a lot comments about Halsey - and a lot over the fact: ppl don’t want to see her as an enemy.

But here are the facts: she is a war criminal. And she attacked the Infinity. She is a traitor and was one from the beginning when she came on board of the Infinity.

She helped kidnapping children to create some supersoldiers of them.
And if ppl now say: “Oh she was not alone. It was ONI - she only followed orders. No wait - she tried to protect the children during the evil experiments.”
… ever heard of the “Milgram experiment”?
Also I don’t think that Halsey don’t want to bear responsibility for the Spartans.
Never hunt innocent ppl; this is always criminal - harvester like! Especially if these are only children. And thats what she done.

She was even proud of the Spartans: more:
“The next step of the human evolution.” Oh great. Broken humans are the next step of the evolution only because of the fact they can fight better?

I maybe start this discussion again because I just played Wing Commander IV. And Halsey was realy Admiral Tolwin like.
“Is this the price of freedom?”

Genetacally optimized - like the Killer in Wing Commander “Seether”. Only two steps away of the ideas of Halsey - if not less.
Spartans are “optimized”, too. Maybe only a question of time until things start to go “wrong” / or “out of control” - even if she won’t notice it.

Well you could say: there are many differences … still.
Alright. Still.

I ask myself: which would be the next steps of Halsey, if she would be in charge? Optimze more humans? All? Or do we start directly with the precision genocide on civilists.
I mean humankind needs to be protected. On which costs? Every costs! And if a stronger Enemy will appear? Shouldn’t we be prepared? With more Spartans? With better Weapons? Can we accelerate our evolution somehow? Maybe with Conflicts in our own rows? May the strongest survive? The one with the best optimized components? - “Is this the price of freedom?!”

Well she might break with her plans, or she might push them fast forward. But one thing must be said here: In her ideology are no ways left or right after her comments over the spartans - exept she lied … but I don’t belive that.
She is like Admiral Tolwin, just a few chapters behind.

A society can’t be build on susuppressed individuals. Even not if these are super soldiers. And even if they rescued humankind in the Covenant War. That’s no excuse. With the first chain link the chain is already done.

Or lets say it this way: it was luck - not a plan. The Covenant-Attack was the perfect alibi for her bad plan(s).
Normal someone like Halsey would be stopped faster. But with the Covenant all may think: Oh good Halsey, thx.
In truth she is working on the doom of the society - maybe she dunno it by herself. But its a fact. (The nazis had good intentions for the world, too.)
And cuz of the Covenant noone sees it … or want to see it?!

Covenant was an enemy for the humans. But that deosn’t mean: Halsey is not one, too.

Iam just frustrated that a lot of people still like or even defend her.
Luckily she was the traitor in SpartanOps. Hope it stays that way.
Executing her was maybe an overreaction. She wasn’t such a big threat. But I think she is an enemy. And in the end she has to be neutralised: arrested or killed.

I realy miss the times of Wing Commander IV …

Oh … btw: I know life is not only black or white. But if you have to choose it: Should Halsey be your leader or your enemy (in coming Halo stuff) … what would you choose? - Check the Poll.

2

The ends Halsey achieved more than justified the means. Halsey didn’t have to be the enemy, she was a problem ONI created just like Jul 'Mdama. Killing her solves nothing, especially by an organization formerly led by a war criminal and now led by a war criminal. What is the lesson to be learned? We will ask you to join our group and then execute you to save our -Yoinks!-?

3

> She helped kidnapping children to create some supersoldiers of them.
> And if ppl now say: “Oh she was not alone. It was ONI - she only followed orders. No wait - she tried to protect the children during the evil experiments.”
> … ever heard of the “Milgram experiment”?

Personally, I see that as a poor comparison. Sources in lore would even dispute the notion of Milgram’s study on peoples obedience to authority figures- and Halsey’s situation isn’t even that in terms of how she was conscripted into ONI in the first place.

Milgram’s experiments may be a hindrance to your argument as whole really, as no IRB today would allow such a program today as Milgram had designed then as he had no debriefing process. An analogy can be drawn as ONI being the IRB in that if it really was looking for the well being of the patients (Spartan candidates) it would never allow Milgram’s (Halsey’s) experiment to get beyond the design phase.

4

> > She helped kidnapping children to create some supersoldiers of them.
> > And if ppl now say: “Oh she was not alone. It was ONI - she only followed orders. No wait - she tried to protect the children during the evil experiments.”
> > … ever heard of the “Milgram experiment”?
>
> Personally, I see that as a poor comparison. Sources in lore would even dispute the notion of Milgram’s study on peoples obedience to authority figures- and Halsey’s situation isn’t even that in terms of how she was conscripted into ONI in the first place.
>
> Milgram’s experiments may be a hindrance to your argument as whole really, as no IRB today would allow such a program today as Milgram had designed then as he had no debriefing process. An analogy can be drawn as ONI being the IRB in that if it really was looking for the well being of the patients (Spartan candidates) it would never allow Milgram’s (Halsey’s) experiment to get beyond the design phase.

Its not an analogy. The argument aims on the fact that ppl say: ‘Halsey is not responsible for the kidnapped children because of the other ONI-Leaders. She only followed orders.’

but nvm

Morals must be the highest value in a society - the only assurance that ppl will repeat their acts. And these acts must follow some special rules - or the society will break apart … and end in evil scenarios.

Following orders is inconsistent - because you change if your bosses are away.

Acting like a criminal and kidnap childrens without following orders is a moral, too. But a bad one.
And if we follow Kants arguments - it shows that it is sure that Halsey will repeat bad things like kidnapping children. If she did it before because of her moral thinking she will repeat it - and not only cuz of her orders.

So my arguments are totally right.

5

If you want to go with just following orders you might want to look into the Nuremberg Defense. But it still does not apply to Halsey, and as evident with the other Spartan Programs she was not alone in using children (Soliciting Orphans for the SIII’s with Ackerson and Maggie) and with the SIV’s it shows that their is no reason to return to taking of children in order to make Spartans, a point you also missed when she mentions augmentation as the next step of human evolution.

From an in universe perspective Spartans are indeed humanities next step in evolution as they are superior to normal humans and it can be applied to adults- the technology has changed to allow this.

6

> Its not an analogy. The argument aims on the fact that ppl say: ‘Halsey is not responsible for the kidnapped children because of the other ONI-Leaders. She only followed orders.’

And was also influenced by the Librarian and the AI Assembly.

> but nvm
>
> Morals must be the highest value in a society - the only assurance that ppl will repeat their acts. And these acts must follow some special rules - or the society will break apart … and end in evil scenarios.

Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right.

> Following orders is inconsistent - because you change if your bosses are away.

You might, I certainly don’t.

> Acting like a criminal and kidnap childrens without following orders is a moral, too. But a bad one.
>
> And if we follow Kants arguments - it shows that it is sure that Halsey will repeat bad things like kidnapping children. If she did it before because of her moral thinking she will repeat it - and not only cuz of her orders.
>
> <mark>So my arguments are totally right.</mark>

No they are not. You claim that because Halsey kidnapped kids, she’ll do it again. You ignore the development she underwent as the years went by and started to question the choices she made. She still believes the Spartans are our next step in evolution, I don’t see anything around to discredit that.

7

I would definitely want her to be the ‘leader,’ and it would make sense for her to.

If you draw comparisons to the current timeline in the Halo Universe to the Forerunner Era, you’ll note striking comparisons starting to develop between the Builders and ONI. Suppression of other races, desire for total control, putting greed before morals, etc. IMO, and I haven’t read Silentium so PLEASE don’t say anything in this regard, the test from the precursors is one of unity among races. If the galaxy can’t unite against the Flood, the Flood will do it for them. The only way the galaxy would stand a chance against the Flood is if the different races unite together and act quickly.

Thus, it’s not so much as a want, but a need for Halsey to be the ‘leader.’ She’s the opposite of ONI at this point, and I think both the books and the games are depicting her as such on purpose.

8

Do you think Master Chief and all the spartans just popped out of a magic box for the Human-Covenant War? Don’t you realize that without the Spartans, without Master Chief, the entirety of the human race would be extinct by this point?

She only was labeled a war-criminal when the records of the Spartan Program were made public and ONI needed a scapegoat. She never acts traitorously or stupidly on her own, what she does is for the greater good. For example, the only previous record of Dr. Halsey going against the UNSC prior to going on the Infinity was taking Kelly to the planet Onyx, in which an entire Forerunner World was discovered. Greater good accomplished.

Why are you trying to demonize Dr. Halsey? It’s not like she was kidnapping children to keep them hostage or for ransom, she was raising them to protect humanity. Granted, the cause at that time was to fight the insurrection, but still, her work saved humanity. You paint her as this wicked, slave-driving witch but really you fail to understand that she is a genius trying to save and advance the human race. We don’t know if she has really turned traitor; in fact, it’s highly unlikely. By communicating with Jul, she managed to get half the key to the UNSC, better than Jul obtaining it for himself. And her vow for revenge may just be a way for her to manipulate 'Mdama.

And another thing, enough with the experiment references. Just explain your arguments, not throw around facts that you don’t really understand. Seriously, Milgram’s experiment just showed how people changed behaviors and acted cruel when given power over others. Halsey has never inflicted cruel or unusual punishment on anyone. Everything she does has a reason. Would you rather kidnap 60 children or would you have billions of lives destroyed? The answer is clear.

9

I only have one question at this moment. Why is your font set to smaller than normal? Pink + Smaller font hurts my eyes to read.

10

see? what i told you?
realy spooky isnt it? the sky isnt the only grey and dark thing here.
but at least now you might understand me a little bit better if i talk over them.

11

I would choose Halsey as a leader any day of the week. She knows what she’s doing and I entirely believe when she said “If people would just share things with me, I could solve all the world’s problems”. You don’t have to like it though.

12

It really is kind of ridiculous, this notion that Halsey went around kidnapping kids.

Literally everything about the Spartan II program rests on the shoulders of ONI, not Halsey. The only possible exception to this is the use of the flash clones, but are we really going to believe that no one in the top tier of ONI picked up on that? Im sure flash clones arent cheap, nevermind the people and places involved in the creation, transportation and implamentation of them.

Halsey isnt evil, Halsey didnt kidnap kids, Halsey didnt torture kids, Halsey isnt the devil. ONI is responsible for all of it, because ONI asked her to come up with the idea, took her idea and decided to make it a reality, and had Halsey running the whole operation.

You kids really need to stop acting like Halsey is some lone wolf with infinite resources that went around the galaxy stealing kids and turning them into Spartans. Halsey was the project lead, but ONI was signing the paychecks and giving the go-aheads.

13

Dr. Halsey should be prosecuted for the things she has had done, surely. She destroyed more than seventy-five lives. She took promising young children from their families and turned them into extremely intelligent, resourceful, agile, mighty, brainwashed sociopathic killing machines in power armor. Out of innocence, she created an unstoppable force. She destroyed the innocence.

She deserves to be punished for that. I will certainly agree.

With that said, the problem with this situation lays solely in the fact that she’s being prosecuted by the very organization that funded this project to kill the innocence of seventy-five children (and later even more) by turning them into supersoldiers. The organization itself is telling the public “Yes, we had a hand in this, but we didn’t know what she was actually doing”.

This is evidenced in Spartan Ops, when the Spartans of Fireteam Majestic are reviewing what was known about Halsey; they describe her as a “mad scientist” who “kidnapped a bunch of kids” to create the “original Spartans”. They don’t seem to realize that the very same organization who gave them their augmentations and power armor also condoned and cooperated with the kidnapping of these children with nearly complete knowledge of the program, and in fact approved a quite similar but ultimately even more dire program later, with many more children dying.

ONI very likely publicly blamed Dr. Halsey for much more than she actually did. While the organization “came clean” about its involvement with the Spartan program, it did so on its terms, and it obviously wasn’t entirely truthful about it, or more people than just Dr. Halsey would be incarcerated.

Notice how nobody ever even discusses they Spartan-IIIs and the circumstances they were born (and killed) in. In my eyes, it is very likely that the actual circumstances of the Spartan-III program - that they were children essentially manipulated by a jealous old man into becoming fourteen-year-old suicide soldiers - were hidden from the public by ONI. They were very likely instead described as a continuation of the Spartan-II program, or are still strictly classified.

Either way, it’s quite clear that ONI is using Dr. Halsey as a scapegoat. What she did for the Spartan programs is not the most severe atrocity ever committed; in fact, the Spartan-III program is arguably much worse, and yet ONI ensured that Colonel Ackerson would be remembered as a dead hero who paid the price to help save mankind (evidenced in Halo: Glasslands).

The problem with this situation is that no organization stepped up and said “Wait a minute, we need to verify that ONI didn’t have more than just a minor hand in this - prove that the organization is being truthful.” In reality, if the United States government announced that it had been experimenting on kidnapped children to create more efficient soldiers, and it had resulted in casualties despite the amazingly efficient results, many organizations and even countries would be stepping up to hold this government accountable.

If it happened in another country, the United States would be hounding that country for full disclosure. The organizations involved would face the consequences as a whole, rather than scapegoating one individual. Think about how every -Yoink!- was wanted as a war criminal after World War II - not just the leaders of the party. They all committed atrocities, and they all paid the price. It should theoretically be similar with ONI here.

That is what doesn’t sit right with me. I can’t accept that nobody thought “Well, we better dig into this further rather than taking ONI’s word on it”. If this was reality, the real facts regarding the Spartan programs would surface sooner rather than later, and ONI would be forced to reform or disband as a criminal organization - Dr. Halsey included.

14

why is halsey the focus that deserves punishment but not the government that was asking for somebody to take that position? If any of you even bothered to read her journal she states that she took the spot because she didn’t want somebody to abuse the position.

cough ackerson cough

I don’t see the logic behind penalizing somebody that stopped humanity from collapsing either. But that is the society we live in now, we ask for great things then punish those that do them.

Um what? When did she attack the infinity and how did she betray them?

15

> She was even proud of the Spartans: more:
> “The next step of the human evolution.” Oh great. Broken humans are the next step of the evolution only because of the fact they can fight better?

The Spartan’s physical, intellectual and technological abilities is what is probably being referred to, maybe also their martial prowess. There’s nothing intrinsically broken about those.

> May the strongest survive? The one with the best optimized components? - “Is this the price of freedom?!”

No idea where you are getting that idea from in the setting. The last thing the UNSC would want to do is create a gulf in Human society when there are more advanced and superior species out there who wouldn’t mind taking a shot at Humanity. That and the fact that arbitrarily separating out which Humans get the benefits of the Spartan program and which of those who don’t would be a completely pointless waste of time from the get go with no reasoning behind it at all and achieve nothing except a fractured and overall weaker Human society in the end.

16

> I read a lot comments about Halsey - and a lot over the fact: ppl don’t want to see her as an enemy.
>
> But here are the facts: she is a war criminal. And she attacked the Infinity. She is a traitor and was one from the beginning when she came on board of the Infinity.
>
> She helped kidnapping children to create some supersoldiers of them.
> And if ppl now say: “Oh she was not alone. It was ONI - she only followed orders. No wait - she tried to protect the children during the evil experiments.”
> … ever heard of the “Milgram experiment”?
> Also I don’t think that Halsey don’t want to bear responsibility for the Spartans.
> Never hunt innocent ppl; this is always criminal - harvester like! Especially if these are only children. And thats what she done.
[/quote]
So rather then sacrifice a 75-150 children to help stop the Insurrection, we should just let millions more die and the destabilization of the UNSC happen right when the Covenant come. Yep, thats better then kidnapping children who DON’T regret their becoming a Spartan. You may argue that Osman regretted it, but really, she is glad to become Admiral, a chance she would never have without the Spartan program. And they most certainly didn’t hunt innocents after that. So 150 children stolen at birth save the universe. Yep, thats bad.
>
>
>
> > She was even proud of the Spartans: more:
> > “The next step of the human evolution.” Oh great. Broken humans are the next step of the evolution only because of the fact they can fight better?
>
> Spartan IVs look like fine to me. Hell, they party like frat boys when they kill an Elite and loot his equipment.
>
>
>
>
> > I ask myself: which would be the next steps of Halsey, if she would be in charge? Optimze more humans? All? Or do we start directly with the precision genocide on civilists.
> > I mean humankind needs to be protected. On which costs? Every costs! And if a stronger Enemy will appear? Shouldn’t we be prepared? With more Spartans? With better Weapons? Can we accelerate our evolution somehow? Maybe with Conflicts in our own rows? May the strongest survive? The one with the best optimized components? - “Is this the price of freedom?!”
> >
> >
> > Well she might break with her plans, or she might push them fast forward. But one thing must be said here: In her ideology are no ways left or right after her comments over the spartans - exept she lied … but I don’t belive that.
> > She is like Admiral Tolwin, just a few chapters behind.
>
> With brand new tech unlocking more secrets of augmentation, the risks are lower.
>
>
>
> > A society can’t be build on susuppressed individuals. Even not if these are super soldiers. And even if they rescued humankind in the Covenant War. That’s no excuse. With the first chain link the chain is already done.
>
> Seems like a good excuse to me. They saved the entire universe from either the Halo ring activating or Flood collective. Are you really telling me its better to become a part of the Flood then give a 150 children the chance to save us all?
>
>
>
> > Or lets say it this way: it was luck - not a plan. The Covenant-Attack was the perfect alibi for her bad plan(s).
> > Normal someone like Halsey would be stopped faster. But with the Covenant all may think: Oh good Halsey, thx.
>
> Bad plan? Even without the Covenant, it was justifiable in the end. The Insurrectionists were killing millions of people!
>
>
>
> > In truth she is working on the doom of the society - maybe she dunno it by herself. But its a fact. (The nazis had good intentions for the world, too.)
>
> Nazis were also drove by power, Halsey wasn’t.
>
>
>
> > Covenant was an enemy for the humans. But that deosn’t mean: Halsey is not one, too.
>
> She is helping Jul with the Janus key. Obviously, she is an enemy
>
>
>
> > Iam just frustrated that a lot of people still like or even defend her.
> > Luckily she was the traitor in SpartanOps. Hope it stays that way.
> > Executing her was maybe an overreaction. She wasn’t such a big threat. But I think she is an enemy. And in the end she has to be neutralised: arrested or killed.
>
> For creating the men and women who stopped the greatest threat in the universe, she should die? Wrong

17

While I get that Halsey did everything with humanity’s best interest in mind, I still don’t see it as an unreasonable development that she was punished for it by a civilized society.

Do I think ONI as a whole should receive a kick in the nads as well? Absolutely, but the injustice is that they weren’t punished while Halsey was.

I don’t believe in “The ends justify the needs”. We gained many medical advances from the Nazis, but does that negate the fact that it resulted from the torture and death of thousands? I certainly don’t think so.

As for “Should Halsey be a leader or enemy”? I think neither. I think her character is better suited to following her own agenda without the UNSC hounding and restricting her; perhaps an ally, but only because she doesn’t want humanity dead.

18

> While I get that Halsey did everything with humanity’s best interest in mind, I still don’t see it as an unreasonable development that she was punished for it by a civilized society.
>
> Do I think ONI as a whole should receive a kick in the nads as well? Absolutely, but the injustice is that they weren’t punished while Halsey was.
>
> I don’t believe in “The ends justify the needs”. We gained many medical advances from the Nazis, but does that negate the fact that it resulted from the torture and death of thousands? I certainly don’t think so.
>
> As for “Should Halsey be a leader or enemy”? I think neither. I think her character is better suited to following her own agenda without the UNSC hounding and restricting her; perhaps an ally, but only because she doesn’t want humanity dead.

What i want to understand is why halsey should be pursued more than anybody else? I mean maggie got 700,000,000 people killed yet nobody is raging about her actions and branding her a war criminal. I find irony in halsey being called a “war criminal” when there wasn’t a war because of her work and that was the entire damn point.

19

> While I get that Halsey did everything with humanity’s best interest in mind, I still don’t see it as an unreasonable development that she was punished for it by a civilized society.
>
> Do I think ONI as a whole should receive a kick in the nads as well? Absolutely, but the injustice is that they weren’t punished while Halsey was.
>
> <mark>I don’t believe in “The ends justify the needs”. We gained many medical advances from the Nazis, but does that negate the fact that it resulted from the torture and death of thousands? I certainly don’t think so.</mark>
>
> As for “Should Halsey be a leader or enemy”? I think neither. I think her character is better suited to following her own agenda without the UNSC hounding and restricting her; perhaps an ally, but only because she doesn’t want humanity dead.

Nazis were attempting genocide and world domination. Halsey was taking a 150 children to save millions of lives which turned into saving humanity. The ends justify the needs in this case.

20

> > While I get that Halsey did everything with humanity’s best interest in mind, I still don’t see it as an unreasonable development that she was punished for it by a civilized society.
> >
> > Do I think ONI as a whole should receive a kick in the nads as well? Absolutely, but the injustice is that they weren’t punished while Halsey was.
> >
> > <mark>I don’t believe in “The ends justify the needs”. We gained many medical advances from the Nazis, but does that negate the fact that it resulted from the torture and death of thousands? I certainly don’t think so.</mark>
> >
> > As for “Should Halsey be a leader or enemy”? I think neither. I think her character is better suited to following her own agenda without the UNSC hounding and restricting her; perhaps an ally, but only because she doesn’t want humanity dead.
>
> Nazis were attempting genocide and world domination. Halsey was taking a 150 children to save millions of lives which turned into saving humanity. The ends justify the needs in this case.

And aside from hypothermia research and stress for pilots, I wouldn’t even say the Nazis made “many” medical advances.