Halo Wars 2: Factions, Trees, and Units and Upgrades

Games Other Halo
1

Disclaimer: This thread is going to be LONGGGG. Also it may include many edits and is purely the work of fiction (but hopefully may come to fruitation in HW2 :slight_smile: ).

IMPORTANT: I am not neccessarily the best at HW but am good enough to know the good the bad and the ugly. This is irrelevant however, as you will further see.

ALSO IMPORTANT: For all you radicals who seek to completely change the team (ie make warthogs anti-air and make spartans heros, then this ISNT FOR YOU) and I insist you leave IMMEDIATELY!

Table of Contents:

  1. Preface (from Halo Wars 1)
    -Bests
    -Could have been betters

  2. Factions (Halo Wars 2 starts here)
    -UNSC
    -Covenant
    -Flood

  3. Tech Trees (although I dont know why I included this because I will discuss upgrades later)
    -UNSC
    -Covenant
    -Flood

  4. Upgrades
    -General tweaks and changes
    -UNSC
    -Covenant
    -Flood

  5. Preface:
    To start, I’d like to discuss what I thought were the 3 most awesome and helpful features of Halo Wars and the 3 that could have been improved.

BESTs

  1. CIRCLE WHEEL: this 8 paned device made my day in Halo Wars and I fell in love with its convience and am still obsessed so its safe to say that this will appear further in the thread.
  2. SET BASES: yes while this is somewhat of a controversy, rotating buildings to make them fit in some sort of grid pattern or just free build would have been too complicated and derelict of fun. Yes Set Bases are staying.
  3. COVIE LEADERS VS UNSC POWERS: ok. obviously people are going to whine and complain about this one too saying COVIE OP!!! ZOMG No ffar!!! However, I believed that the two sides were balanced to a credible degree and so yes, they are staying.

COULDA BEEN IMPROVEDs

  1. UPGRADES: yes standard upgrades in HW were nice however, I am an upgrade freak and with only a max of 4 (super units) upgrades per unit I was kinda laid low. THIS WILL NOT STAND! In HW2 upgrades will be as dynamic and personality indulging as possible. If you want your marines to do extra damage to air, THEY WILL (more later).
  2. ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS: yes using the cool term. In HW it was set as tanks>infantry>air>tanks… HOWEVER, it was in reality tanks>infantry; air>infantry; infantry>itself (through suicide because they sucked so much). I mean come on how could they not have picked up on making a slow -Yoink- unit that does no damage???
  3. GAME TYPES: ok while this really won’t be discussed here I just want to mention… Only 2 game types on game ship? 3 more for 10 bucks? come on! Atleast put in some fun ones or allow for custom settings like in Halo. Maybe also add offset games were one team defends or something. Just spice it up! We will have to see.

OK WHEW! While that rant is over with I may seem a complainer myself, I was merely explaining the articles I which to touch up upon before starting this amazing prediction of the inevitable release of Halo Wars 2!!!

  1. Factions

UNSC:
Yes, the good old good guys are back and the same as ever (basically). I do not plan to fix what isn’t broken. The UNSC will still use the power wheel for their “spells” and abilities. They will also be divided into 3 different Leaders much the same as before (except different people especially because Forge is dead, DEAD, Dead, DEAD!). However, I will still refer to them as tank (Forge), infantry (Cutter), and air (Andres) general even though you are not even required to build those units. It is just easier considering their abilities and Units. The UNSC will feature most if not all of the same troops (come on I already designed the Flood! Whoa did I say that? Maybe…) with differences with each leader. Note that each new and cool features will be described later, for now its just a list. And oh, I dont think I will include the stat changes to ALL the units but dont be like “EUgh that suxs in HW, it MUST suxs now!” k?
Infantry:
-Base
*warthog
*elephante
*spotter NEW; basically this unit takes 1 population, is cloaked when deployed, has a large deployment sight, and can work with other UNSC units.
-Barracks
*marines (see later)/ODST
*flame throwers
*Spartans
-Depot
*scorpions
*cobras
*wolverines
-Air Pad
*Hornets
*voltures
*(maybe pelicans or something else, still undecided)
Tank:
-Base
*warthog
*cyclopsisi
*spotter NEW; basically this unit takes 1 population, is cloaked when deployed, has a large deployment sight, and can work with other UNSC units.
-Barracks
*marines (see later)
*flame throwers
*Spartans
-Depot
*scorpions/grizzlies
*cobras
*wolverines
-Air Pad
*Hornets
*voltures
*(maybe pelicans or something else, still undecided)
Air:
-Base
*warthog
*greemlines
*spotter NEW; basically this unit takes 1 population, is cloaked when deployed, has a large deployment sight, and can work with other UNSC units.
-Barracks
*marines (see later)
*flame throwers
*Spartans
-Depot
*scorpions
*cobras
*wolverines
-Air Pad
*Hornets/hawxs
*voltures
*(maybe pelicans or something else, still undecided)

POWER WHEEL:
yes there will be changes to even this so it is important I must list/explain abilities, old and new.
Infantry:
Mac blast- Keep in mind that the way of use for this ability will change.
heal- same as always, although maybe another alorithim (er watevas) to change how much it heals over time with a little at the beginning to a final massive heal.
pelican (may be transferred to air pad, still pending…)
D-Bomb- everyone’s favourite minus those pesky covie leaders who I tend to play >.>
Radar scan- NEW (obviously!) will allow for the removal of fog of war for a short period of time and in a small area (100$) also reveals cloaked units. WHAT! dun worry, i catch you later brah. But remember to keep in mind that this has a short cooldown and is an opposite (same thing, basically) as a covie probe (also explained later, brah)
Cancel- (duh!)

NOTE: most/all of these powers (unfortunately, cancel cannot be made more awesome) can be upgraded and I will explain later
Obviously I didn’t include the Tank or Air general simply because I reconded it was not neccesary for you guys to read the same copied lines again with only 1 change

Ok posting this so far as to see what people think about this right now. I know there aren’t many changes at all, but more will follow.

2

Covenant:
Boom! either like them or you hate them, but they are in the same boat as the UNSC (which I keep spelling UNCS for some reason). All 3 original covie leaders: Prophet, Brute, and Arbisaurusrex will remain in HW2. because the UNSC and covenant are so similar yet different, I will do this 1 differently. I will list the units once and then describe their separate leader power advantages after (including powers, some upgrades, and special units).
Also to note: special units are GONE, done, down the toilet. really the only viable units were brutes for rushes but no one will even care because I will add different special units( hint they are called sabetours, well atleast for Prophet).
Units:
-Base
*Scarab(as always)
*sabetours (explained in full detail later, so hold yer horses)
(also note that ghosts will not be here because the Covenant were really fine without needing to make a really bad car that could never compare to the hog).
-Hall
*Grunts (upgrades later)
*jackals
*hunters
-Assembly (i think this is what it is called)
*ghosts
*wraithes
*locusts
-Summit
*engineers
*banshees
*vampire (my fav thing, besides arby!)

Ok time for individual leaders and one more quick thing about sabetours. Sabetours are just like UNSC spotters but serve a different role(sorta like the leader special unit). That means that they are cloaked (so can be revealed by UNSC radar scan and other enemy covenant probes, as well as being too close to another unit, especially 1 that is stationary). Moving will decloak the unit, unlike the UNSC spotter, the sabetour doesnt have to be deployed to be cloaked and will preform different secondary attacks “y”, depending on what leader. The sabetour will see other cloaked units and has a large sight, but does not help other covie units like the spotter does :(. ok back to leaders
Prophet:
The prophet will be mainly the same will his chair, gunz, and shield. However, the cleansing beam can be upgraded in multiple ways (more later on)
The prophets sabetour will be called… oh I cant remember his name but the sabetour will basically be the same elite from the start of Halo: the Flood with his stealth and invisibility. His y button attack will released a charged bolt of plasma to stun a vehicle. This sabetour does low damage and has low health.
The prophets starting scout vehicle is the ghost
Brute:
The brute, like the prophet will function in his old self, swing his hammer and doominating and just like the prophet his vortex can be upgraded to a certain varity (which if you havent guessed on, each unit will have specific upgrades that are awesome, just wait)
The brutes sabetour will be called the stealth brute or spec ops brute (atleast for now). He will basically BE the invisible flying brute from Halo 3 (yep with jetpack). however, since this is mainly a scout unit, he will not beable to withstand the punishment he could take in HW (there will also be only 1) or dish out that much damage
The brute’s starting scout vehicle is the chopper
Last but not least ARBITER:
The arbiter will be the same… however, this time rage mode will actually WORK right, lol.
The arbiter’s sabetour will be called the assassin. This boss elite will basically be the same as the elite honor gaurd for prophet in HW however, cloak is no active and goes away after moving. The assassin seems to merc infantry, slowly of course and is bad against vehicles but cant shoot air. However, his real attack is when you hit y and he jumps unto a tank or aircraft, much like a spartan, and attempts to beat it to death with his blade!!!1! Note: he CANNOT highjack only try to destroy the vehicle.
The arbiter’s starting scout vehicle is the spectre (i know from h2 right?) a lot of people were QQing about this and I happened to agree. this will function similar to a warthog except slower (upgrade to a boost ability like banshees) and a fairly weak starting turret.
OK this is for all of them, sabetours are mainly there to SCOUT and therefore will not cause tremendous damage or get in the way of anything really.
OK this is looking good so far.
Time to get unto the next faction…

3

Flood:…
Ok this topic has been constantly discussed as whether the flood would actually fill a faction spot. And I say I hope so. In HW I saw so many new, unique units that they could possibly be their own team already, given a push… Nevertheless, as I sat earlier tonight thinking, a burst of pure genius erupted from my mind and warped itself into the flood. Now, why I put this here, I dont know. infact, the flood wont be a big part of the many changes I will make (actually, it depends but…). However, we must consider stats, stats, stats. The UNSC is represented by its economy, while the covies use leaders and devout followers, but what characterizes the flood? The answer is SELF PRESERVATION! This one central Idea shaped the way I think of designing such a faction. That is preservation as a whole (gravemind) rather than the individual. So here are my advantages given to flood, sort of like cheaper research for andres but I don’t really no how to describe them cause my mind just blanked on the word.
Gravemind:
parasitic swarm: all enemy units near the base are damaged over time (not too much but enough) and enemies killed return health to the gravemind.
dormancy: when in lock down mode, the base regenerates health (along with having extra defense that all bases will share)
forced regeneration: after a building is destroyed by the enemy, the cost of the next building in that same spot is reduced by half of the damage done by the enemy, up to 1/3 off (still debating on price reduction), and the build time is decreased.
Population cap 60 (you will see why it is so high)
After laying out these perks? eh i guess, it got my thoughts stuck around the idea of a horde army that completely sucks, but uses other’s life essence to sustain itself and its numbers.
The next step is to lay out its buildings. I don’t want the Flood to be some kind of army that just uses corrupted models for its most basic needs. NO. I needed it to feel entirely on its own. However, I couldn’t place the flood too far outa line that it would feel unatural and not belonging in HW2. Well here goes, here is the list of the buildings (named to some extent and their design and closest structure).
NOTE: the flood will only have a max of 6 SIX base pads not 7! why later on.
Structures
-Growth/colony/hive (base)
-seeding pod (supply pad)
-Fungal opening? (barracks)
-tumor (depot)
-protruding spire (air pad)
-brain growth (armory)

Notice how their isnt a reactor?/temple? That is because the main base serves as the reactor upgrade spot, whilist a powerful unit serves as the reactor and acts sort of like a leader. Now time for units, fun fun fun. I tried to combine ranged with the normal flood melee here, so give me a break if it is not up to your standards or coment yourselves :slight_smile:
Units:
-Hive
*The Mind: This unit is your reactor/leader. Make sure he doesn’t die. He is slow, kinda looks like a toad from marrio but floodlike. The Mind can be upgraded at base. his secondary creates a large cloud around him that damages enemies alot and air even more. the could also speeds up your own flood. even though he is sort of your leader, the leader abilities still use a power wheel for flood explained later. Lastly, when this unit drops below 50%, he uses the life force of your nearby units to sustain him, buildings included!
*swarm: this is your scout class and is cloaked at all times but cannot attack unless… the swarms secondary is to land and form a sort of ball that can do some damage but is no longer cloaked. May by useful in some rushes.
-Seeding pod: this gets you money
-Fungal opening
*spiders: dont really know what to call these guys, but they are the crawley guys from H3 that morph into those annoying needle shooters. Big guys not included. Basically MAINLINE unit, that requires a little micro to quickly (much faster than cobras) transform into shooters/sniper things that damage air and infantry effectively. The also function as moderate ANTI AIR
*mites: the lil dudes you KNOW from halo. cheap as they get but can be upgraded to be effective to both infantry and tank but not neccessarily anti tank or infantry. no secondary, or there may be one to upgrade to. NOTE: if you kill infantry you will get an infected version but be unable to use its secondary function but it will not cost you a pop point.
*mite heads: for 3 pop count you get a big slow dude explodes! not like the one in campaign, well actually they are the same, but a little more durable, lol. there y attack is critical though because it causes them to leap forward which may land on enemies and deal massive damage.
-Tumor (these units are classified as TANK for all damage purpases)
*Collage: a large 4 or how every many legged thing that appears to be pieced together by various parts. this MAINLINE unit spews spore pods as its main attack and beats things to death as its secondary. its Y attack shoots a large ball that posions an area, not just a unit bu you can actually select an area, and slows down enemies and hurts infantry. The collage contains pores than spit out at air units.
*Hulk: for lack of a better name, the big lumbering guys you say in campaign and deal massive damage agains tanks. ANTI TANK HERE! there Y ability gives them a short speed boost which they can quickly close the gap and engage them tanks.
*Leech: this special unit is my fav for flood. looking more like a giant slug, this monstrosity can burrow underground, cloaking itself and move towards its enemy. Then it can redeploy and start draining health from enemies in melee combat. however if it drains too much health, it explodes damaging enemies around it. Also speed is based on health drained (at 50% health moves fast, 100% normal speed, 150% slow).
-Protruding Spire
*Carrion: these simple creatures simply fly around in a swarm and spit at enemy infantry making them ANTI INFANTRY but also effective ANTI AIR. they however, are relative weak but cheap, light and fast.
*Bomber: simply the same from the campaign. These guys are a lil bit faster but are mainly ANTI BASE but can also harm ground units. The bombs they drop explode then release bomber mites which can sometimes chain reaction into buildings. detonation on destruction also damages buildings.
*feeders: #2 fav unit. these wierd butterfly/flood things simple fly over to an enemy and latch on, draining health and spreading a healing cloud around itself for any nearby units.

Whew finally done. tell me what you think. Tomorrow I will do tech trees and (maybe not tom) upgrades. Thanks!

4

Someone comment on this. Rip it to shreds.

  1. Tech Trees
    This section will mainly focus on units and structures as upgrades will be featured later. To do this I will just list the available structures and units for each under their respective tech values.
    UNSC
    Tech 0:
    -Structures
    *supply pad
    *barracks
    *reactor
    *base
    -Units
    *marines
    *warthog
    *elephant (infantry)
    *flame throwers
    *cyclops (forge)
    Tech 1:
    -structures
    *Armory
    -Units
    *spartan
    *gremlin (andres)
    Tech 2:
    -structures
    *depot
    *air pad
    -units:
    *scorpion
    *hornets
    Tech 3:
    -structures
    *none New
    -units:
    *wolverine
    *cobra
    Tech 4:
    -structures
    *none new
    -units:
    *Vulture

Covenant
Tech 0:
-structures
*supply pad
*hall
*assembly
*summit
*temple
*base
-units
*grunts
*jackals
*ghosts
*engineer
*leader (this is kind of redundant because you need the temple to even build this unit)
Tech 1:
-structures
*shield generator
-units
*hunters
*wraiths
*Banshees
Tech 2:
-structures
*None New
-units
*locusts
*vampire
Tech 3:
-structures
*none New
-units
*scarab

5

Here you go…The idea sucks. They need base building to be anywhere not stationary, other than that I can deal with the rest.

Anyways what is the point to this, even if they where going to make a Halo Wars 2 you think they are going to be like, “This guy has it all figured out,let us take some notes for our new game”. If there is going to be a new on,Ill be it is already in the works, and if it is not you will never see a part 2.

6

> Someone comment on this. Rip it to shreds.

If you’re not looking for constructive criticism then I’d say I’d your changes would want me to play HW2 as much as I’d want to go out and get rectal surgery.

In an attempt to be constructive:

– I’m OK with static base locations as that tends to make it easier for map creation, map balance, etc.

– I do want the map to be somewhat dynamic in that maybe you could build minor structures like “cover” for infantry more of less where you want

– I’d prefer a “sniper” class for both UNSC and Covenant that covers your scout role. Jackals and UNSC Snipers could cover this role well. In addition both units could snipe [blows their cover] but they’re also useful for that function as they would be deadly vs. Spartans, Unit Leaders, etc.

– I somewhat agree with your ideas on the Fog of War & Shroud. I think every map structure should be fully visible. The only thing that should be hidden is troop movements. You can then pay for satellite imaging to see what’s going on & where. You could also move Snipers into position or put up remote surveillance drones.

– I would totally rethink all leader powers. For example all Covvy leaders basically have a Grav-lift power that teleports most troop types to their location. I would get rid of this and make both Covvy & UNSC use Pelicans or similar to move troops in unconventional ways. This way guarding “choke points” on a map is a valid tactic against both UNSC and the Covvy. The way things are now if the leader can get past the choke point they can bring their full army through quite quickly.

– Limit Covenant Leader teleporting to the POR and let the Brutes & Elites have to do things the old fashioned way. I.E. if you get caught out-of-position that’s your own fault. This would at least make the POR unique …

– As for Covvy leader powers the Tsunami & Glass Beam both seem reasonable enough. The Arbi “rage” [IIRC] has no basis to exist in Halo. If you leave in the “berserk” then I think you need to have the Arbi take slightly more damage while he’s enraged and also take damage for each Air / Vehicle he kills [as it blows up in his face]. Healing while in a rage runs counter to the concept of a rage so that would be gone … Personally I’d rather see a power similar to an ODST drop where he calls in a “Free” transport worth of troops. That and maybe he can increase the rate at which troops are built at his bases in return for even more resources.

– Changes to how max population is handled should be worked out. If I’m UNSC and I own 1 base or 5 bases my max population is still 30 [40 with research]. I think that max population should be a function of both the number of bases and the size of the base.

– The concept of a base population should also be worked out. For example lets say I want to build more turrets beyond my 4. That should be allowed but it takes up base points to have people man those positions. If I want an Air Pad then that should take up a different number of people to man that.

– All bases should repair themselves at a rate dependant on how many base personnell are NOT performing other duties [like working in the Vehicle depot or manning a turrett].

– I’d like to see a concept covering damage to buildings / troops. Basically the more damaged it is the worse it performs. If you have an Airpad that has 50% damage then the rate it produces troops should drop in proportion to the damage it has taken.

– While the canon says the Covenant Troops are weak on a per-unit basis I think I’d disagree. Sure some of their most basic infantry [grunt squad] should not be good however they should be numerous & cheap. However troops like Elite-squads, Jackals, Brutes, “honor guards”, and Hunters should all be considered excellent troops as they should be able to PWN a lot of basic UNSC troops 1-on-1. A unit like the Banshee is fragile but I see little in-game that says that Hornets are much better. I think there is plenty of room to improve Covvy troops so that any of the above changes wouldn’t cause so much of a problem.

7

– As for the Flood as a faction I would have to see your ideas in action. From what I can tell though too much stuff is “made up” for my liking.

– MAC blasts seem too powerful vs. troops but not powerful enough vs. buildings / base shields / etc. Rethinking balance may be a good idea here.

– Carpet bombs only destroy ground units and then may not destroy tanks or similar. If you keep it then the “Veteran” status of a unit shouldn’t count as a defense vs. the leader power. Maybe changing this power entirely would be more useful. If there was a Spartan Leader maybe he could enable any fielded Spartans to “insta JacK” whatever Vehicles are around. Maybe the Leader could lead a 3 Spartan Squad to blow a Scarab or do something else that’s dramatic & fitting??? Perhaps they could take down a base’s shield generator???

– Perhaps the UNSC should get more variety of troops from their starting building. Maybe they should start with options for a Mongoose, Basic Infantry, Spartans, and [special unit … cyclops / gremlin / elephant] depending on the leader?? Covvy would have Ghosts, leader dependant infantry, and maybe something else “cool”??

– Allow “ranged infantry” that is in a locked down base [with shields down] to fight at full strength to defend the base.

– If you have manned turretts then you should be able to choose their targets.

– Introduce the concept of Artillery to help break stalemates / soften up fortified postions / attack bases / etc.

– Do something with Turrets / base artillery so they have a wider and/or longer range of fire. Put them on risers / grav lifts / something to increase their usefulness.

8

– With the UNSC changes I would do [moving basic infantry to the main building] I would change the barracks to allow for:

a. Flamers … a melee range strongly anti-infantry unit. Highly limited range, no effect vs. air, no effect vs. heavy vehicles. Large damage to light vehicles with exposed operators [Warthogs, Ghosts, etc.]. Huge damage to unshielded infantry.

b. Snipers … They can fill the roll of both Scout and Sniper. In scout mode they can deploy to a location and if they’re not spotted they can hide from other troops. They are also deadly vs. Spartans, Leaders, Vehicles with exposed operators, etc. when they Snipe … this however breaks their cover and they can’t hide again until a cooldown AND they are out of the line of sight of other troops.

c. Rocket Marines … The ultimate in Glass Canons. They can deal awesome ranged punishment to light air / light vehicles. They deal good damage vs. heavy vehicles. On the other hand they are fragile so unless firing from under cover they are easy to deal with.

9

> Here you go…The idea sucks. They need base building to be anywhere not stationary, other than that I can deal with the rest.
>
> Anyways what is the point to this, even if they where going to make a Halo Wars 2 you think they are going to be like, “This guy has it all figured out,let us take some notes for our new game”. If there is going to be a new on,Ill be it is already in the works, and if it is not you will never see a part 2.

Yeah, you should probly listen to this guy.

Easy: Having fun being creative and making up all the units, like you did. Its not hard for any gaming company to make an RTS where there are a whole variety of units, each being unique.

Hard: Balancing the units. Once the company has all their units (which was quite easy), they spend the other 99% of their time making them work. Look at Starcraft and Starcraft 2, 3 different races each with INCREDIBLY unique units. They have what you asked for (protoss>covy, flood>zerg, UNSC>terran), 3 different playable races, but it is super balanced.

I am almost sick of these threads. 1 more might do it. Bungie has created a rediculous universe which the world has come to call as HALO. Anyone can come up with ideas of units/leaders/upgrades, only a good gaming company can make a succesful RTS out of it.

10

> > Someone comment on this. Rip it to shreds.
>
> If you’re not looking for constructive criticism then I’d say I’d your changes would want me to play HW2 as much as I’d want to go out and get rectal surgery.

Ok I get your point but what I really meant was DESTRUCTIVE criticism. I WANT people to say “hey this suxs cause…” and tell me WHY. But in general any criticism is warranted. However, the things I don’t want are people who say this idea sucks. You know why? Because they don’t tell me why something is sounding too over powered or weak. People who think that saying that something like this would never happen are just wasting their time on here. Also are the people who INSIST on free base placement. ARE YOU DUMB? this game is not starcraft. It is played on a CONSOLE. Bases need to be simple. Allowing for free build would remove a button from the controller that is already used. Duh! Also Halo Wars has a very low population cap compared to other games. With free build, you could simply build yourself in and keep enemies out. Not to mention the economy. In Halo Wars you have to make the decision to build that extra supply pad or the reactor, and know when it will be most successful. So please these radical ideas NEED to stop. This thread simply takes Halo Wars 1 and adds another faction to it and changes the upgrading and base building (like speed/health relationships). Nothing terrible big.

Ok to move on. kutchek, I really enjoyed reading what you had to say, but there are some issues I had with your ideas, especially the idea of snipers. Yes this idea is GREAT. Infact I have already added those to the game (atleast in my head). The problem being is that adding all those new for the barracks would create too many problems. First, the Power Wheel only has 8 slots. Each unit needs 2 slots (one for purchase, one for upgrades [see later]). Next, WAY WAY WAY too many counter units pouring out. And invisible snipers would just jump a hero, no fun (dont worry snipers will reappear in the upgrades section, where the most changes occur I think). Though, I see now that I did not give the chance for Spotters to shoot, maybe I will give them a pistol or something. NOTE: these scout infantry are not for combat. Their purpose is to simply preform recon and watch chokepoints.

11

Flood
Tech 0:
-structures
*seeding pod
*fungal opening
*protruding spire
-units:
*The mind (note: need to build this guy before techs come into effect)
*swarm
*mites
*spiders
*carrion
Tech 1:
-structures
*brain gwoth
-units
*mite heads
Tech 2:
-structures
*tumor
-units
*Hulk
*feeder
Tech 3:
-structures
*none New
-units
*Collage
*leech
*bomber
Tech 4:
-structures
*none New
-units
*none New (however, more upgrades)

OK now for the fun part… UPGRADES!

12

> > > Someone comment on this. Rip it to shreds.
> >
> > If you’re not looking for constructive criticism then I’d say I’d your changes would want me to play HW2 as much as I’d want to go out and get rectal surgery.
>
> Ok I get your point but what I really meant was DESTRUCTIVE criticism. I WANT people to say “hey this suxs cause…” and tell me WHY. But in general any criticism is warranted. However, the things I don’t want are people who say this idea sucks. You know why? Because they don’t tell me why something is sounding too over powered or weak. People who think that saying that something like this would never happen are just wasting their time on here. Also are the people who INSIST on free base placement. ARE YOU DUMB? this game is not starcraft. It is played on a CONSOLE. Bases need to be simple. Allowing for free build would remove a button from the controller that is already used. Duh! Also Halo Wars has a very low population cap compared to other games. With free build, you could simply build yourself in and keep enemies out. Not to mention the economy. In Halo Wars you have to make the decision to build that extra supply pad or the reactor, and know when it will be most successful. So please these radical ideas NEED to stop. This thread simply takes Halo Wars 1 and adds another faction to it and changes the upgrading and base building (like speed/health relationships). Nothing terrible big.
>
> Ok to move on. kutchek, I really enjoyed reading what you had to say, but there are some issues I had with your ideas, especially the idea of snipers. Yes this idea is GREAT. Infact I have already added those to the game (atleast in my head). The problem being is that adding all those new for the barracks would create too many problems. First, the Power Wheel only has 8 slots. Each unit needs 2 slots (one for purchase, one for upgrades [see later]). Next, WAY WAY WAY too many counter units pouring out. And invisible snipers would just jump a hero, no fun (dont worry snipers will reappear in the upgrades section, where the most changes occur I think). Though, I see now that I did not give the chance for Spotters to shoot, maybe I will give them a pistol or something. NOTE: these scout infantry are not for combat. Their purpose is to simply preform recon and watch chokepoints.

Why are you trying to balance a game that doesnt exist?

You obviosuly didnt read my other post so ill reiterate my point: Deciding units/buildings/upgrades IS VERY VERY EASY. SUPER EASY, especially because Halo is such an incredible universe with so much information already. The units are already created. They just need to be balanced, something that cant be done until the final stages of the game, til you decide exactly waht is in and out. There are such minor tweaks that CAN NEVER be forseen until months of playtesting happen.

You do hit on a couple good points though, but they all pertain to the game interface, controls, and general layout, which I feel you should focus on.

Free building is NOT NOT (double negative, as in it is possible) possible. Why couldnt it work? It wouldnt be perfectly equivalent to Starcraft> How about each main base is still built in fixed locations, and can support no more than X buildings that must be placed in a close proximity, kinda like comman and conquer/red alert.

The wheel menu is NOT limited to 8 options. In Halo Wars, it is, but it doesnt have to be. What if all 8 slots were filled with a different unit? To build the unit, press A over it. To upgrade the unit, press y over it. I jsut turned 8 options to 16. What if yu select a barrack and a wheel menu comes up, and then you hit left bumper and right bumper to switch between two wheels pertaining to the barracks?

And please please please, anyone who reads this, STOP MENTIONING THE FLOOD. DO YOU THINK BUNGIE OR 343 TAHT STUPID, THAT THEY COULDNT FIGURE OUT THE THIRD PLAYABLE RACE IN HALO WARS IS FLOOD? Is it hard for anyone to understand or see that it is the only logical other race there will be?

Besides, this is a Halo RTS. If the gameplay is good, people will love the game regardless of what units you throw in it because it is halo themed. There are so many races and creatures in the halo universe, and this coupled with the fact that each race will need 10+ units, you are garunteed to see alot of waht you are asking for.

Here are some GENERAL things (examples) that need to be worked on for halo wars 2:

Patroling units - unit command are very simple. There is only: 1. move here 2. attack here 3. special ability. Some more advanced unit controls might help make gameplay more exciting.

Unit collision - I HAVE NEVER seen an RTS with more disgusting unit pathing/collision/frame/whatever you want to call it. It is really, really terrible, especially cause it can detract SO MUCH from gameplay. Nothing worse than 2 tanks causing all your tanks to rotate and act dumb. A great improvement example can be seen if you went from SC1 to SC2. In starcraft 2, when units move, they gain smaller collision boxes, making them move far more fluidly. Units like elephants and cobras are some of the worst made units (not from use/tactical standpoint, just how clunky and crappy they move/act)

More emphasis on map control - Map control is very terribly implemented in Halo Wars. Some parts of the map are completely useless (no base, not a choke point, no hooks, no use at all). I would also like to see some assymetrical maps. Every map in halo wars works on even numbers. even amount of bases, even amount of hooks. Starcraft had 3 player and 5 player maps that were alot of fun to play 1v1 on, different encounter in different parts of the map. Halo wars maps empasize fighting in the same places over and over again, especially because bases are fixed.

13

> > > > Someone comment on this. Rip it to shreds.
> > >
> > > If you’re not looking for constructive criticism then I’d say I’d your changes would want me to play HW2 as much as I’d want to go out and get rectal surgery.
> >
> > Ok I get your point but what I really meant was DESTRUCTIVE criticism. I WANT people to say “hey this suxs cause…” and tell me WHY. But in general any criticism is warranted. However, the things I don’t want are people who say this idea sucks. You know why? Because they don’t tell me why something is sounding too over powered or weak. People who think that saying that something like this would never happen are just wasting their time on here. Also are the people who INSIST on free base placement. ARE YOU DUMB? this game is not starcraft. It is played on a CONSOLE. Bases need to be simple. Allowing for free build would remove a button from the controller that is already used. Duh! Also Halo Wars has a very low population cap compared to other games. With free build, you could simply build yourself in and keep enemies out. Not to mention the economy. In Halo Wars you have to make the decision to build that extra supply pad or the reactor, and know when it will be most successful. So please these radical ideas NEED to stop. This thread simply takes Halo Wars 1 and adds another faction to it and changes the upgrading and base building (like speed/health relationships). Nothing terrible big.
> >
> > Ok to move on. kutchek, I really enjoyed reading what you had to say, but there are some issues I had with your ideas, especially the idea of snipers. Yes this idea is GREAT. Infact I have already added those to the game (atleast in my head). The problem being is that adding all those new for the barracks would create too many problems. First, the Power Wheel only has 8 slots. Each unit needs 2 slots (one for purchase, one for upgrades [see later]). Next, WAY WAY WAY too many counter units pouring out. And invisible snipers would just jump a hero, no fun (dont worry snipers will reappear in the upgrades section, where the most changes occur I think). Though, I see now that I did not give the chance for Spotters to shoot, maybe I will give them a pistol or something. NOTE: these scout infantry are not for combat. Their purpose is to simply preform recon and watch chokepoints.
>
> Why are you trying to balance a game that doesnt exist?
>
> You obviosuly didnt read my other post so ill reiterate my point: Deciding units/buildings/upgrades IS VERY VERY EASY. SUPER EASY, especially because Halo is such an incredible universe with so much information already. The units are already created. They just need to be balanced, something that cant be done until the final stages of the game, til you decide exactly waht is in and out. There are such minor tweaks that CAN NEVER be forseen until months of playtesting happen.

OK you contradict yourself in this argument; Why are you trying to balance the game, then to, making up units is easy and balancing is difficult. Obviously, you do understand that I am trying to balance a game that does not exist. Therefore, you understand how hard it is to write all this and trying to balance each unit. It is near impossible to balance it BEFORE play testing really, so I don’t understand why you don’t understand that this is merely a “sketch” of what should come. wars maps empasize fighting in the same places over and over again, especially because bases are fixed.

Ok YES finally got it. I just presented the flood as an army, though I forgot to mention a few things. Most of this article I want to devote to the Upgrades section which I haven’t even finished on. Let’s continue. Your free building argument is nice, but stupid. Why even have it if you can only build 7 buildings? pointless… Next, your wheel idea is genius and I don’t believe that I didn’t think of this. Oh what… not to be rude, but it is pointless. In a game where there is mainly infantry, air, and vehicles and is not as complicated as other RTS’s then the units would just get boring and redundant. Unless of course you wish to add anti- infantry, air and vehicle units to each category (which is dumb in itself) then people would only build one type, where as now, you might have to build hunters AND vampires instead of hunters and some anti air infantry. Next! ok this part I completely ignored because I do not feel it is relavent here at all. NEXT! Um patrolling… I don’t know why you would want a unit to move back and forth, when you just could have a scout there. AND did you know that you CAN issue chain commands by holding DOWN THE X BUTTON? But I can’t ignore the rest of your post which does describe some horrible components of the previous game. Unfortunately, I cannot do anything about the coding now. Next, the map control part is exactly what I was thinking earlier in the article. Maybe have some asymmetrical maps as well as game types. Also your map control part is valid too but however, that is mainly the design of the map and unless you wish to design one then you will just have to suffer. Compared to your other post, this was much better. could have been better, but pretty much what I was looking for (although you really didn’t discuss what I was actually talking about, just dragged me onto some tangent).

14

> OK you contradict yourself in this argument; Why are you trying to balance the game, then to, making up units is easy and balancing is difficult. Obviously, you do understand that I am trying to balance a game that does not exist. Therefore, you understand how hard it is to write all this and trying to balance each unit. It is near impossible to balance it BEFORE play testing really, so I don’t understand why you don’t understand that this is merely a “sketch” of what should come. wars maps empasize fighting in the same places over and over again, especially because bases are fixed.
>
> Ok YES finally got it. I just presented the flood as an army, though I forgot to mention a few things. Most of this article I want to devote to the Upgrades section which I haven’t even finished on. Let’s continue. Your free building argument is nice, but stupid. Why even have it if you can only build 7 buildings? pointless… Next, your wheel idea is genius and I don’t believe that I didn’t think of this. Oh what… not to be rude, but it is pointless. In a game where there is mainly infantry, air, and vehicles and is not as complicated as other RTS’s then the units would just get boring and redundant. Unless of course you wish to add anti- infantry, air and vehicle units to each category (which is dumb in itself) then people would only build one type, where as now, you might have to build hunters AND vampires instead of hunters and some anti air infantry. Next! ok this part I completely ignored because I do not feel it is relavent here at all. NEXT! Um patrolling… I don’t know why you would want a unit to move back and forth, when you just could have a scout there. AND did you know that you CAN issue chain commands by holding DOWN THE X BUTTON? But I can’t ignore the rest of your post which does describe some horrible components of the previous game. Unfortunately, I cannot do anything about the coding now. Next, the map control part is exactly what I was thinking earlier in the article. Maybe have some asymmetrical maps as well as game types. Also your map control part is valid too but however, that is mainly the design of the map and unless you wish to design one then you will just have to suffer. Compared to your other post, this was much better. could have been better, but pretty much what I was looking for (although you really didn’t discuss what I was actually talking about, just dragged me onto some tangent).

I didnt contradict myself. Ideas for units/upgrades are easy. Balancing them is hard.

Did you know that you can only chain a limited amount of cammands? And this requires constant user input.
Please stop asking me questions in an effort to belittle me. You did it in your other post. I GARUNTEE, only because I know myself very well, I have played more RTS than you, and I am more than knowledgable in the field. The only reason I say this is NOT to make myself look/feel better than you, cause I dont really care if you are better or I am. Just stop making dumb comments like taht, it only sets us both back.

Onto your blob.

About the free building: I never said only 7 buildings. I said X, as in it will be decided later, when the game is balanced. But it will work as follows:

You take over a base (just like halo wars 1). They are in fixed positions. They are the main base structure, a sort of support for the others to come (just like halo wars 1). Around these bases now, is a simple square grid, maybe 2 bases in raduis around it. You can simply place your buildings anywhere in the allowable grid. This would allow you to build not so important structures (supply pads) in front as a sort of wall (just like supply depots for terran in starcraft), and more important buildings in back, or whatever you decide. This would allow for more interpretive map control, in that the player can have more influence over territories without the game getting to the point of starcraft, building turrets anywhere and everywhere on the map.

Not sure what you meant when talking about the wheel menu suggestion I made. Clarify please?

Things that must be fixed, and I think we can both agree on:

UNIT PATHING. Its horrific. Ive seen rocks fall down a flat hill faster than tanks get across the map.

15

BTW I’d love just a few more commands that are unit level. For example I wish I could tell a selected group of X to attack the enemy group of Y.

Example: I’d love to be able to select a group of Wolverines and tell them to attack that group of Banshees and ignore the Hunters. Hopefully I could then tell my Hornets to take out either Banshees or Hunters [whichever made the most sense] and go from there.

Another example: I’d love to tell a group of units to perform their Y-action on another group of units. A coordinated Wolverine “volley” against units in a choke point that can’t move would be one possible example of the things I’d like to do.

16

s

> BTW I’d love just a few more commands that are unit level. For example I wish I could tell a selected group of X to attack the enemy group of Y.
>
> Example: I’d love to be able to select a group of Wolverines and tell them to attack that group of Banshees and ignore the Hunters. Hopefully I could then tell my Hornets to take out either Banshees or Hunters [whichever made the most sense] and go from there.
>
> Another example: I’d love to tell a group of units to perform their Y-action on another group of units. A coordinated Wolverine “volley” against units in a choke point that can’t move would be one possible example of the things I’d like to do.

Wolverines are actually pretty beast already. They automatically attack ground and air simultaneously, using the grenade launcher for ground and missiles for air.

I think the point you were making was as follows:

You have a group of tanks. You see a group of wolverines and cobras. You only want your tanks to attack the cobras right? Or in your example, if the enemies have hunters/wolverines, and you had air units, you would want them to specifically target the wolverines. Is this right?

If what I said is correct with what you have said, then I WOULD ADVISE NOT PUTTIN GIT IN THE GAME. I understand your idea and it makes sense on paper, but RTS its not all about user friendly. Everything cant be done for you, and I would say that applies strongly to unit control, which is one of the core concepts of an RTS where skill can shine through. If you elimante skill gaps, then your RTS is a crapper.

I like your other idea though, I made a post about it on the old halo wars website. If you have 1 tank, your canister hits 1 unit. If you have 2 tanks, you could hold y, and have a small area to spread the canisters over. As you add more tanks, the area becomes bigger and bigger, allowing you to spread out your damage. All of this scenario is in an effort not to waste 10 canister shells on a single unit when 2 or 3 would have done the trick. However, this brings us back to the point I made above. RTS cannot be too user friendly. You cant have your army automatically determine the best use of its abilities, taht is YOUR job.

The battle between making a RTS _ fun and dynamic with different options/user inputs AND making an RTS allow for skill/micro _ is a tough fight, even harder on a console, because you want to make it easier with the lack of keyboard and mouse, but not so easy the game palys itself.

Your ideas are on the right track though in my opinion. The game needs its mechanics and glitches fixed before ideas of new races/leaders make the already here problems worse.

17

> I didnt contradict myself. Ideas for units/upgrades are easy. Balancing them is hard.
>
> Did you know that you can only chain a limited amount of cammands? And this requires constant user input.
> Please stop asking me questions in an effort to belittle me. You did it in your other post. I GARUNTEE, only because I know myself very well, I have played more RTS than you, and I am more than knowledgable in the field. The only reason I say this is NOT to make myself look/feel better than you, cause I dont really care if you are better or I am. Just stop making dumb comments like taht, it only sets us both back.
>
> Onto your blob.
>
> About the free building: I never said only 7 buildings. I said X, as in it will be decided later, when the game is balanced. But it will work as follows:
>
> You take over a base (just like halo wars 1). They are in fixed positions. They are the main base structure, a sort of support for the others to come (just like halo wars 1). Around these bases now, is a simple square grid, maybe 2 bases in raduis around it. You can simply place your buildings anywhere in the allowable grid. This would allow you to build not so important structures (supply pads) in front as a sort of wall (just like supply depots for terran in starcraft), and more important buildings in back, or whatever you decide. This would allow for more interpretive map control, in that the player can have more influence over territories without the game getting to the point of starcraft, building turrets anywhere and everywhere on the map.
>
> Not sure what you meant when talking about the wheel menu suggestion I made. Clarify please?
>
> Things that must be fixed, and I think we can both agree on:
>
> UNIT PATHING. Its horrific. Ive seen rocks fall down a flat hill faster than tanks get across the map.

Umm… yes you did make a contradiction. First you said “Why are you trying to balance a game that does not exist.” Then you go on to say that balancing is what you should be focusing on because it is the hardest part. About the commands, I issue like 5 or 6 to Arby for him to destroy a base, I think any more than that (maybe max at 10) would be pointless. And the questions I ask are rhetorical (an english term used to bring emphasis to certain parts of text), so you should be able to answer them without much help. Actually replying back on them isn’t the point.
About the buildings: first it was reebuild now it’s gridbuild. I understand that you want more freedom in the placement of buildings, maybe hiding the reactors in the back or something, but I don’t know if that will help solve map control? Infact, I think that blocking off chokepoints to bases like in starcraft is NOT good. In starcraft, that usually helps deter rushers but in HW, your small unit count will make it very hard to bust through these defenses.
About the wheel, I think that the idea is good, however it will be pointless because you only have a small number of units to build. Maybe would make more sense if we had more unit variety, but I’m not really asking for that.

AND FWI you probally haven’t been playing more RTS’s than me. I’ve played starcraft, warcraft, and the C&C original games all the way through C&C 3 (Didn’t get 4 because I didn’t like the base idea). Not to mention Halo Wars!

And for those of you still waiting on the upgrades, don’t worry it’s coming. I’m just working on it because it is going to be extra long.

18

Alright, first off, your posts are way too long considering much of what you do is just restate the current order. You would have been much better off if you just mentioned the things you changed.

Secondly, I agree with Bob and Kutchek on most of their comments. What I’ll add is this, you seem to be concerned with creating cool units, which is a neat idea, but isn’t really what you have to worry about from the standpoint of gameplay design. You should be concerned with the role of the units in gameplay. I completely agree that there should be scout units, but as Kutcheck mentioned, I think it would be better if there was a sniper class that was produced out of the barracks that did this. I mentioned this in one of my other threads.

Aside from bug issues (pathfinding, etc.), the primary thing they should work on for HW2 is to add more depth with branching upgrade trees (I think we’ve all agreed that this is a good idea, at least abstracted from the particulars of how one would implement them). The branching upgrade trees would add a lot to the depth of gameplay and the possible strategies and combos one can use.

Another major thing they need to work on is the interactivity of the map. The game needs to be more about map control, and adding free-built tactical structures like bunkers and AA guns would add a lot to gameplay.

After these two things, I would then say that they should look at the base building again. I don’t think freebuilding is quite the way to go, but I think adding a bit more freedom within the base itself is a good idea. I’ve given my views on this in other threads. I don’t think people should use supply pads as barriers like in SC though, it would just slow down gameplay, and that’s what bunkers would be for after all.

All in all, I’d say your stuff on the flood is interesting, but other than that you don’t provide a really convincing scheme from a gameplay perspective.

19

> Umm… yes you did make a contradiction. First you said “Why are you trying to balance a game that does not exist.” Then you go on to say that balancing is what you should be focusing on because it is the hardest part. About the commands, I issue like 5 or 6 to Arby for him to destroy a base, I think any more than that (maybe max at 10) would be pointless. And the questions I ask are rhetorical (an english term used to bring emphasis to certain parts of text), so you should be able to answer them without much help. Actually replying back on them isn’t the point.
> About the buildings: first it was reebuild now it’s gridbuild. I understand that you want more freedom in the placement of buildings, maybe hiding the reactors in the back or something, but I don’t know if that will help solve map control? Infact, I think that blocking off chokepoints to bases like in starcraft is NOT good. In starcraft, that usually helps deter rushers but in HW, your small unit count will make it very hard to bust through these defenses.
> About the wheel, I think that the idea is good, however it will be pointless because you only have a small number of units to build. Maybe would make more sense if we had more unit variety, but I’m not really asking for that.
>
> AND FWI you probally haven’t been playing more RTS’s than me. I’ve played starcraft, warcraft, and the C&C original games all the way through C&C 3 (Didn’t get 4 because I didn’t like the base idea). Not to mention Halo Wars!
>
> And for those of you still waiting on the upgrades, don’t worry it’s coming. I’m just working on it because it is going to be extra long.

Please, please, please quote me when I said you should be focused on balancing. Please.

All I have ever said is that you are trying to determine such tiny little intricacies, things that can only be discovered in play testing. Focus on the general ideas, like base building, map control, and other none balance issues.

What are you talking about 5-6 commands for arby to kill a base? When did we talk about this? confused.

I never, ever suggested free build. Never.

Stop your petty little attacks already please. Quote me accurately, dont ask rhetorical questions or provide definitions.

RTS I have played online:
Starcraft 1
Starcraft 2
Warcraft 1
Warcraft 2
Warcraft 3
Command and conquer:
1
2
3
red alert:
aftermath
counterstrike
redalert 2
total annhilation
seven kingdoms
age of empires:
1
2
3
all expansions
age of mythology
heroes of might and magic:
2
3
4
civilization:
1
2
3
4
revolution

Do i have to go on?

20

ENOUGH cpkbob!

All you want to do is lie and have petty fights when you know you are wrong. You DID say freebuild earlier and you DID say that I shouldn’t even worry about balancing. Don’t try to run and hide. It’s over.

As for the other guy… can’t remember his name, well, I’ve told you guys that the upgrade part is being finalized, probally will be up tomorrow.
Also, I don’t understand everyone’s obsession with snipers. Yes, they were/are big in Halo, but didn’t show so much in Halo Wars. UNSC already has ANIT INFANTRY. No need to add a unit that is basically a scout jackal. That seems to good. Maybe… I will add in an upgrade for the spotters which will upgrade their pistols to DMRs or something, but sniper no. Just too OP having invisible snipers.
And Yes. My earlier posts were too long (most exceed character limit). So this next one I will try to fit 1 per faction because the upgrades reflect changes to EVERY Unit, building, and leader power. So please, be patient, I’m almost done.