Like hell it is. Bungie created the perfect formula with Halo. They created a social/party game disguised as an fps.
343 never learned that lesson. And it looks like Joseph Staten has forgotten those lessons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q69Msy8ttM&ab_channel=Bungie
Everyone in that studio needs to learn what passion is. It’s clear in the VidDoc that the people at Bungie had it. These guys at 343 clearly don’t. What a joke.
You are obviously referring to Halo 2/3 days, what I said rings generally true. Who wants to watch pros play on maps/gametypes that are completely different from what they play on? You watch competitive Infinite and pretty much everything they do is repeatable, the biggest difference is the radar obviously.
The main point is that when you design a game to be social/party-like, there’s usually enough settings available for tweaking towards more competitive interests. But when you design a game to be competitive in the first place, it is very difficult to turn that into that social/party-like experience.
Halo before 343 was a party game (Bungie’s words) that could be competitive. Think like Smash Bros. There’s a reason the most popular multiplayer mode is custom games. You can turn any game competitive, and in my opinion this consistent attempts at a top eSports game is killing Halo. Think of the stories you have of Halo, I bet most players go to something funny in customs or campaign and never how well they did in a competitive match.
You have a good point, but I think many people have forgotten how big Esports and MLG was for Halo 2, Halo 3 (especially). Halo Reach pretty much killed Halo’s competitive scene until Halo 5 revived it.
Maybe Halo: Combat Evolved wasn’t designed to be competitive, but you can’t say with absolute truth that Halo isn’t meant for competitive play.
Not to mention the general focus on Esports in the gaming industry in the last few years, with more young gamers being more focused on comp play than ever with games like Warzone, Apex Legends and Valorant being very very popular now. Halo entered the comp scene a long long time ago whether people like that or not.
I never said Halo was ONLY comp either. 343 didn’t say that either. Only that it is, indeed, part of Halo’s DNA just as much as social and casual play is.
I am talking about those + reach. I mean the topic is “Halo is a competitive shooter” and every one is talking about the franchise as a whole. Why limit it to just Infinite. Even so, infinite too has different map pickups, starting weapons, vehicle options, and radar settings in ranked compared to social.
People who watched the MLG tournaments back in the day?
The issue with 343i saying they are going to focus more on the completive side is that this game does not feel casual in anyway. Even outside of ranked matches the SBMM creates more sweat matches than the laid back games. Halo indeed has always had it’s competitive side, but it was never this overbearing.
Is it a Halo issue or a Player issue? Even if SBMM was taken out, there’s nothing stopping tryhard sweaty kids from banding together and wiping lobbies like they already are. I feel like a “Laid back game” is just an easy game where you don’t really have to try. The issue with that is, these days with everyone trying to be the next Ninja, it’s very hard to get those lobbies. The only way to recreate that “laid back” feel is to be a high rank player fighting low rank players, or to go into custom games and just -Yoink!- around with people.
I think the real crux of the issue is how little playlists we have available that promote that carefree “-Yoink!- around” kind of vibe, like Infection, Firefight, Forge, Husky Raid, BTB Fiesta, Multi-Team, etc just to name a few. Because most of the playlists we have are basic, tried and true 4v4 modes like Slayer, the lobbies inherently become alot more sweaty.
The players and the playlists are the two things making it feel more competitive than ever I think. What do you think?
yes genius they don’t have Tanks and Wraiths in competitive Halo, what you are doing is called a strawmen argument. Look at what that is, then come back to me with a real argument. You are basically agreeing with me but for some reason insist what I’m saying is wrong… Wastin bro wastin time.
If you really want to bring this up the widest gap between a Halo game out of the box and the competitive settings was probably Halo 4, though Reach is up there too. Nobody wants to watch pros play on nothing but Forge maps, use like a handful of weapons out of a wide arsenal, and nothing they do is replicable. You already know this, and you are again just wasting my time.
All the callouts, the use of weapons/equipment, strats, etc. are usable even in Quickplay. There are a couple of distinctions but that does not disprove my point. Now if you were to argue that people don’t watch pros to learn or to improve their game or anything then that would do better, but really your grasping at straws to try and disprove a self evident point.
Well i havent forgot mlg and h2/3 being big in the comp scene.
But both of those were built by the community because the game was foremost about fun and the competitive scene is organically grown out of that commu ity having a low barrier to entry.
Halo broke the zeitgeist by being a party game in fps clothing.
I never said halo wasnt meant for competitive play.
I only mean to point out that halos success and strength are not born from being designed around competitive play.
I can absolutely say that with 100% certainty and I can say its a fact that halo 1 2 and 3 werent built around a competitive philosophy because the lead designers have stated this.
This is of course emblematic of reachs mi or success in comparison to the trilogy and its longevity.
“Dont tell sage cause hell nerf it.”
Is a big pount to remember.
A shift in philosophy and a in house focus on competitive play resulted in a less fun party game with a homogenous trend in the sandbox design.
Not that
I dont like reach or think it has an awful weapkn sandbox its just built with a new modu operandi that is counter to what made the franchise distinct among contemporaries.
The chasing of streaming and competitive design be it comp or just a play to win mentality over play to play is a fundimental issue in the approach at 343i imo.
Its another example of them trying to capture other games base by adopting industry standards. A stark contrast from the old days where they established their own and ignored trends or hot aspects in the industry.
It shiuld be noted halo like doom wasnt just a phenomenon in the gaming space it broke out into mainline pop culture because it was designed to be played and enjoyed by literaly anyone and that core philosophy can support any sub culture that emerges while designing for this erroneous concept of halo as having “competitive DNA” cannot breath the same level of catering to the wider public. That being the thing that propelled to the point of becoming the MLG juggernaut to begin with.
Designing in response to what the young people want is often a fools game as the actual draw factor
Is lost in translation or misinterpreted. And the result it usualy a homogenisation of design that lowers appeal from the existing install base and failing to capture the new. Building upon the merits of the established system is often recieved better and build on the player base not alienate old for a lack in return on new. Nor did i say the pandering to twitch and comp need be abandoned only that to interpret that aspect as being in the fanchises DNA is misgiuded and a complete change in approach for the franchise.
Consider HI/reach equipments and how they are player empowering win orientated tools
Over halo 3 having map elemwnts that cause a change in the play space but was as capable of giving the opponents the advantage.
They create variety and chaos by design they also pushed movement.
The bubble and deploy cover were quick and did not encourage static hiding tactics, they altered the range of encounters and broke LOS respectively.
where as the shields in infinite are deigned for and as stated by 343i to be lie in wait less reactionary tools.
Thats a design goal of viability over versatility and a easy example of what is lost when fun isnt the main goal and competitive balancing is the crux of how they approach sandbox development.
I never said, as you implied, that you or 343i are comp only or that competitive means purely comp.
Competitive is a mind set in the design process and it is in fact not at the dna of the series.
Halos greatest success was directly tied to that aspect being derived from the actual DNA of party games.
Quake, smash melee 2 avaolute beasts in comp gaming are fundamentally opposed to comp by design untill a community was formed and due to an extremely wide appeal factor due to that design it created a wide audience that pushed the limits of those titles formed a meta and rule sets in the same fashion as halo ce 2 and 3 did.
So in closing i disagree with the assertion that competitive philosophy is on par with social philosophy when considering halos DNA because one is a result of the popularity generated by the other and they as approaches are diametrically opposed.
Building with the competitive mentality is akin to gene splicing. You alter the DNA in order to expand a single facet that by its nature does not support the greater whole.
Its just basic design reasoning that the teams gaol orientation has a knock on effect in how they problem solve or iterate on elements of a title.
In this case halo at its best and at its most competitive when the mindset is fum social experience not win orientated balancing and vaibility.
A party is not about victory its about a group of people interacting in a given space. A competition is participation based. Its about achieving a goal, the win.
And the fact is the people that made halo what it is/was did so by making partys not competitions.
Nobody is saying it isn’t.
Well, technically being competitive requires an element of intent. Put differently, an activity is only competitive if the participants are engaging in it to compete.
But… always a but… The way an activity is designed and structured can influence the way it’s viewed. Build it a certain way and people will have a tendency to gravitate toward approaching it competitively. Especially for a video game because it can be thought of as a fish bowl. The fish can move freely about the bowl but there is no avoiding the water.
Personal opinion, this is one area where “old Halo” differed from “new Halo”. Once upon a time there was a better balance between “win the game” and “play the game for the sake of it because it’s fun”. The competitive side was more of an emergent element. Nowadays it feels like an attempt has been made to push the players toward being competitive. One cannot help but wonder whether it’s a… winning formula.
Its the game settings that are the main issue. Easiest example is a halo 3 comparison to halo infinite.
Halo 3
Social (default settings) slow strafe speed (100% default) easier to land shots and tighter raw skill gap, standard damage, shield regen, motion tracker, default loadouts alongside chaotic fun game modes with their own chaotic flavoring that may also have different loadouts among other things. Very populated throughout the games life span.
Ranked (default settings, slight modifications) slow strafe speed (100% default) easier to hit shots and tighter raw skill gap, precision weapon starts (promotes your standard team play even more with positioning, team shooting, all that great stuff. Motion tracker on in most game modes. This is the light competitive game mode with a step up in the skill gap from social, most enjoyed with stuff like ranked slayer being highly populated and never being low populated until new halos came out.
MLG (tournament settings) faster strafe speed (110%) harder to land shots on faster targets, wider skill gap of raw skill. 110% damage promoting lethality and less drawn out fights widening the skill gap in close fights, 90% shield regen rate promoting less drawn out fights where you could regain shields faster in other modes thus punishment on bad positioning and decision making much harsher…widening the skill gap. Motion tracker off…widening the skill gap. Precision starts widening the skill gap. LOWEST populated playlist during anytime of the games life span. Great to have it as a slice of intense competitive multiplayer, but would be disastrous to only have that.
Halo infinite
Social and competitive share the same movement speed, damage, and shield regen. Ever notice it takes longer to regain shields? Because it follows tournament settings. Struggling to hit your shots even in Social? Because strafe speed is the same. Feel like you die faster in this game? Also the same.
Onto ranked arena…which was the ONLY ranked playlist until we got doubles. It emulates the tournament settings. Wonder why so many people came to this game and made comparisons to halo 3 that somehow ranked was more fun for them? This is why.
Where was ranked slayer at launch?
Where is ranked slayer now?
It should have casual, casual competitive, and hardcore competitive. It feels more like it doesn’t have those 3, not enough differences within the settings for it to feel that way.
For social…there is some fun to be had…all that still has its own issues…to top that off…during the test flight everyone notices the motion tracker changed. It took push back on that to revert it to something familiar for the fans. I dont like motion tracker, but know it promotes much more casual play, much more manageable experiences for players not looking for the hardcore arena stlyle matches.
Theres probably other stuff i could add but i get tired of saying the same thing so many times. There’s a huge reason why Social feels less casual to players, and it’s not their imagination.
I couldn’t agree more with you. MLG/HCS and everything inbetween are products of the title Halo. It’s a for profit game and of course partnering with the comp scene makes sense, but the core Halo is social experiences with friends and randoms.
Competitive is part of halos DNA this is a fact, Halo 2 and five being the best examples.Fun is not a afterthought it is part of halo .Competitive and fun go hand in hand even 343 said so
Its a MM issue. Players were partying up to clap cheeks since Halo 2, but the MM experience was never this consistently sweaty in social. Other modern games do not have this consistent sweat issue either.
It is currently a female dog to set up a custom game nights. As to laid back, I mean games were it’s not a sweat fest. A game where you could drive around an enemy player in your car. Laid back as in you’re not facing an MLG pros spawn camping your team 10 games in a row.
You first.
I listed 4 different ways that ranked setting are different from casual, but yeah TaNks aNd WrAiThS.
Look. For a second you stopped pretending that social and ranked have the same settings.
Cap. People were watching MLG to get better back in the day too. GTFO with this “nobody wants to watch” BS. It wasn’t true back then, its not today. And you’re also caping when you say nothing is replicable
Yeah I’d argue that the vast majority of players do not watch esports or give a crap about the competitive scene. They Probably wanted to play for casual fun like they had back in the day, but dipped out because this game is not causal.
Whatever mr self important.
God what a boring person to talk to. It was successful in spite of small tweaks to settings dude. By your same logic pros could just be playing Grifball all day and Esports would thrive, literally watch ANY esports tourny and you will not see any of those games look/play completely different from the baseline game. You watch Apex and they’re doing exactly what regular players do (except they’re obviously better with everything) You go into arguments and instead of adding anything or you know, contributing to the conversation you just waste people’s time with strawmen arguments.
I don’t even know what you are arguing about at this point. This forum is insulting bro, people on here that played like 10 matches think they are the arbiters of the series, please dude, get into conversations you are a little more um knowledgeable about. Dunning-Kruger effect bro.
If it were so easy to turn a casual game into a thriving Esports title Minecraft would be top dog.
trust me, bluejay doesn’t know what their talking about, they just keep saying that competitiveness was part of halo’s core gameplay from the start, and yet it ACTUALLY started in halo 2 by the esports community and NOT Bungie, needless to say, competitiveness was never part of halo from the start
Screw esports. The vast majority of players do not give 2 craps about it. I get that you’re obsessed with it and you want to twist a narrative that Halo is a competitive game first and foremost. Too bad for you there are years worth of bungie era BTS’s, interviews, and tweets over years that say you’re wrong.
I was a rank 50 in Halo 2 and 3. Even got to inheritor in reach. I was active on Bungie.net, some of my screenshots were posted to the weekly blog and one of them was used for the Valentines Day team doubles playlist in Reach. Shut up dude.
Nintendo Smash who?
Pokémon what?
You keep using this phrase, it doesn’t mean what you think it means.
I wouldn’t say Halo was never competitive, it definitely was on some level, but it certainly wasn’t heavily pushed as or sold as a strictly competitive franchise. Yeah but blue is for sure lost in his own sauce.
I think Bungie did make some statements about how they designed certain aspects of Halo 2 for competitive play, but that’s similar to how Sakurai balances Smash Brothers. The balance is usually good enough, that for competitive play, a scene naturally blossoms out of it.
This was similar for Halo 2 and Halo 3, but ever since 4, 343 has tried to push HCS hard by intentionally designing the game for competitive play.