Halo infinite and the covenant carbine

I will be pretty brief, the pulse carbine looks great and I am fine if not excited for it, but if it comes at the price of the original carbine then I am a hard pass, the original at one is such a pleasure to use in campaign as it is a nice high damage precision weapon that feels clean and thought out. Your thoughts on whether the old carbine will go, and how if not you would like to see the dynamic between the two

I think there is room for both weapons. The pulse carbine looks really fun and all 343 games have had a DMR and BR so not why 2 covenant guns?

I’ve been a bit sceptical on the pulse carbine but after hearing that old and new weapons will be added to the Halo Infinite weapon sandbox over time it’s definitely calmed my fears of the gun being outright replaced entirely. Especially after the carbine being actually pretty good in Halo 5 I’ve taken a new fondness to the weapon.

I do believe a weapon refresh is definitely something to take on board. A bit of fresh flavour and gameplay isn’t a bad thing as long as it’s handled properly.

> 2535422763112957;2:
> I think there is room for both weapons. The pulse carbine looks really fun and all 343 games have had a DMR and BR so not why 2 covenant guns?

Yet 343 have claimed to want a focused weapon sandbox, and the DMR hasn’t been anywhere to be seen while the commando and BR are present.
No reason to have 3 precision kinetic weapons, especially considering the DMR was never a good replacement for the BR and only served to muddle the sandbox.
The carbine has the same issue…why have another precision weapon when the BR and commando exist, what unique role could be left that would suffice it’s inclusion.

This is just the argument I see 343 using to scrap the Carbine, I’d personally prefer if it was in the game however.

I really like how the carbine played in H5 a lot. I hope it’s back and has a similar feel, where it’s a semi auto that’s effective at a closer range than the DMR.

The Carbine has never amounted to anything more than a green BR. It fills the exact same role with only the most superficial differences. The only time the carbine has ever stood on its own was in ODST where the BR didn’t exist.

There really isn’t anything to mourn unless you really love the aesthetics which hey I like how it looks too, but that is all it really has going for it. Which is a shame because there is so much more you could do with a weapon that is effectively firing mini fuel rods. But if it is just going to be more or less the same as it has always been, then Its fine to ditch the carbine to trim some of the fat in the sandbox.

There is plenty of room for multiple types of precision weapons, but they have to actually carve out a unique niche in the sandbox and just being semi-auto vs burst fire doesn’t cut it.

> 2533274819446242;6:
> The Carbine has never amounted to anything more than a green BR. It fills the exact same role with only the most superficial differences. The only time the carbine has ever stood on its own was in ODST where the BR didn’t exist.
>
> There really isn’t anything to mourn unless you really love the aesthetics which hey I like how it looks too, but that is all it really has going for it. Which is a shame because there is so much more you could do with a weapon that is effectively firing mini fuel rods. But if it is just going to be more or less the same as it has always been, then Its fine to ditch the carbine to trim some of the fat in the sandbox.
>
> There is plenty of room for multiple types of precision weapons, but they have to actually carve out a unique niche in the sandbox and just being semi-auto vs burst fire doesn’t cut it.

Semi auto with a close-mid RRR =/= Burst fire with a mid- long RRR. This is like people who argue the SMG and PR are redundant.

Some overlap in effective range is the only thing the carbine and BR have in common, and implying that makes them the same is just ridiculous.

> 2614366390849210;7:
> > 2533274819446242;6:
> > The Carbine has never amounted to anything more than a green BR. It fills the exact same role with only the most superficial differences. The only time the carbine has ever stood on its own was in ODST where the BR didn’t exist.
> >
> > There really isn’t anything to mourn unless you really love the aesthetics which hey I like how it looks too, but that is all it really has going for it. Which is a shame because there is so much more you could do with a weapon that is effectively firing mini fuel rods. But if it is just going to be more or less the same as it has always been, then Its fine to ditch the carbine to trim some of the fat in the sandbox.
> >
> > There is plenty of room for multiple types of precision weapons, but they have to actually carve out a unique niche in the sandbox and just being semi-auto vs burst fire doesn’t cut it.
>
> Semi auto with a close-mid RRR =/= Burst fire with a mid- long RRR. This is like people who argue the SMG and PR are redundant.
>
> Some overlap in effective range is the only thing the carbine and BR have in common, and implying that makes them the same is just ridiculous.

The SMG and PR are redundant, the plasma rifle(and repeater and storm rifle) in every game other than CE is a damage inverted SMG, they are both bullet hoses, but I digress. The differences between the BR and Carbine are marginal at best and can easily do the same job. Range isn’t even the primary issue, you can have weapons that overlap in range and even overarching role without ending up as redundant clones.

The Focus Rifle is a good example of a weapon that overlaps a lot with the Sniper Rifle in range and purpose, but it isn’t just a purple sniper rifle like the Beam Rifle. The thing only thing that changes going from BR to Carbine is how often you pull the trigger. Of course it doesn’t have to be this way, but nothing of value in terms of gameplay is lost by removing the Carbine as it has been historically implemented. We could radically alter how the Carbine functions, replace it with new more unique weapons, or in cases like ODST remove the BR instead, but as it stands it is a Covenant BR, always has been.

> 2533274819446242;8:
> > 2614366390849210;7:
> > > 2533274819446242;6:
> > > trimmed for space
>
> The SMG and PR are redundant, the plasma rifle(and repeater and storm rifle) in every game other than CE is a damage inverted SMG, they are both bullet hoses, but I digress. The differences between the BR and Carbine are marginal at best and can easily do the same job. Range isn’t even the primary issue, you can have weapons that overlap in range and even overarching role without ending up as redundant clones.
>
> The Focus Rifle is a good example of a weapon that overlaps a lot with the Sniper Rifle in range and purpose, but it isn’t just a purple sniper rifle like the Beam Rifle. The thing only thing that changes going from BR to Carbine is how often you pull the trigger. Of course it doesn’t have to be this way, but nothing of value in terms of gameplay is lost by removing the Carbine as it has been historically implemented. We could radically alter how the Carbine functions, replace it with new more unique weapons, or in cases like ODST remove the BR instead, but as it stands it is a Covenant BR, always has been.

In a game like Halo you need redundancy in weapons so the campaign enemies have something to use against you. The Beam Rifle may have functioned identically to the Sniper, but that’s what made it interesting to fight against in the campaign; the enemy has similar tools to you, and if you don’t have a Sniper of your own then you can grab one of theirs. It’s the same deal with the Carbine and BR. There’s also the fact that the Focus Rifle was just plain bad as a sniping weapon.

If the issue is redundant weapons in multiplayer, then it’s just a matter of not putting said weapons on the same map.

The feel of the Covenant Carbine when in actual use, is different enough from the Battle Rifle to deserve a spot. Single shot with high fire rate vs burst fire with medium fire rate is quite a different feel, and something I would miss as an option in Infinite.

> 2533274819446242;8:
> > 2614366390849210;7:
> > > 2533274819446242;6:
> > > The Carbine has never amounted to anything more than a green BR. It fills the exact same role with only the most superficial differences. The only time the carbine has ever stood on its own was in ODST where the BR didn’t exist.
> > >
> > > There really isn’t anything to mourn unless you really love the aesthetics which hey I like how it looks too, but that is all it really has going for it. Which is a shame because there is so much more you could do with a weapon that is effectively firing mini fuel rods. But if it is just going to be more or less the same as it has always been, then Its fine to ditch the carbine to trim some of the fat in the sandbox.
> > >
> > > There is plenty of room for multiple types of precision weapons, but they have to actually carve out a unique niche in the sandbox and just being semi-auto vs burst fire doesn’t cut it.
> >
> > Semi auto with a close-mid RRR =/= Burst fire with a mid- long RRR. This is like people who argue the SMG and PR are redundant.
> >
> > Some overlap in effective range is the only thing the carbine and BR have in common, and implying that makes them the same is just ridiculous.
>
> The SMG and PR are redundant, the plasma rifle(and repeater and storm rifle) in every game other than CE is a damage inverted SMG, they are both bullet hoses, but I digress. The differences between the BR and Carbine are marginal at best and can easily do the same job. Range isn’t even the primary issue, you can have weapons that overlap in range and even overarching role without ending up as redundant clones.
>
> The Focus Rifle is a good example of a weapon that overlaps a lot with the Sniper Rifle in range and purpose, but it isn’t just a purple sniper rifle like the Beam Rifle. The thing only thing that changes going from BR to Carbine is how often you pull the trigger. Of course it doesn’t have to be this way, but nothing of value in terms of gameplay is lost by removing the Carbine as it has been historically implemented. We could radically alter how the Carbine functions, replace it with new more unique weapons, or in cases like ODST remove the BR instead, but as it stands it is a Covenant BR, always has been.

You can’t re-scope against an opponent who is using a carbine and landing their shots. You can re-scope against an enemy using a BR landing their shots, because there’s a time delay between bursts. That alone is a huge difference in the feel of the combat dance when the carbine is involved.

You can keep being wrong and trying to argue, but I’m done with this argument and it’s over simplification of Halo combat.

> 2614366390849210;11:
> You can’t re-scope against an opponent who is using a carbine and landing their shots. You can re-scope against an enemy using a BR landing their shots, because there’s a time delay between bursts. That alone is a huge difference in the feel of the combat dance when the carbine is involved.
>
> You can keep being wrong and trying to argue, but I’m done with this argument and it’s over simplification of Halo combat.

I’m not oversimplifying anything, I just hold the Halo sandbox to a higher standard. The differences you keep touting just don’t change the Carbine’s role in any meaningful way, with the victor being determined most often by the TTK of any given fight between utility precision weapon rather than any unique characteristics they possess. I’m not trying to pick on the carbine specifically here, I have the same problem with with having both a Utility Magnum and a BR in Halo 5, there is just too much overlap for them to meaningfully coexist.

Ideally I want every weapon in the sandbox to be as different from one another as the Plasma Pistol and Magnum.

> 2533274892901745;9:
> In a game like Halo you need redundancy in weapons so the campaign enemies have something to use against you. The Beam Rifle may have functioned identically to the Sniper, but that’s what made it interesting to fight against in the campaign; the enemy has similar tools to you, and if you don’t have a Sniper of your own then you can grab one of theirs. It’s the same deal with the Carbine and BR. There’s also the fact that the Focus Rifle was just plain bad as a sniping weapon.
>
> If the issue is redundant weapons in multiplayer, then it’s just a matter of not putting said weapons on the same map.

We do not need redundant weapons to have a fully featured enemy sandbox. I don’t want the advanced alien faction to have the exact same tools as me because that isn’t interesting. If I run out of ammo for my human sniper rifle switching to a purple sniper rifle doesn’t add any interesting new wrinkles to gameplay or require me to change anything about my tactics. That makes the Beam RIfle and other reskin weapons like the Carbine an utter waste of space in the sandbox.

I guess if all we need to do is fill out the sandbox then I guess you would be just fine with a Plasma Pistol being a battery based Magnum or removing the sword and hammer in favor a Covenant shotgun. If you are not okay with that then I have to ask why you are fine with shallow reskins in some parts of the sandbox but not others.

As for the focus rifle the specific balance in Reach isn’t relevant the discussion of whether if fills a unique place in the sandbox, balance is a separate discussion from weapon design. The bottom line is that the Focus Rifle could be a very different beast in a new Halo game compared to Reach, but at the end of the day it is still a unique option compared to the purple sniper rifle. If we are going to toss out a weapon based on how it was balanced in its debut I guess it is fine to ditch the Carbine since it was just a worse BR even before we get to button combos.

Same I’m fine with the addition of the pulse carbine but really hope it’s not replacing the original carbine. If it does, I hope they bring back the carbine post launch.

> 2535422763112957;2:
> I think there is room for both weapons. The pulse carbine looks really fun and all 343 games have had a DMR and BR so not why 2 covenant guns?

I think so too, since there isnt many covenant/banished precision weapons
(actually theres a lot but always open to more)

> 2614366390849210;11:
> > 2533274819446242;8:
> > > 2614366390849210;7:
> > > > 2533274819446242;6:
> > > > The Carbine has never amounted to anything more than a green BR. It fills the exact same role with only the most superficial differences. The only time the carbine has ever stood on its own was in ODST where the BR didn’t exist.
> > > >
> > > > There really isn’t anything to mourn unless you really love the aesthetics which hey I like how it looks too, but that is all it really has going for it. Which is a shame because there is so much more you could do with a weapon that is effectively firing mini fuel rods. But if it is just going to be more or less the same as it has always been, then Its fine to ditch the carbine to trim some of the fat in the sandbox.
> > > >
> > > > There is plenty of room for multiple types of precision weapons, but they have to actually carve out a unique niche in the sandbox and just being semi-auto vs burst fire doesn’t cut it.
> > >
> > > Semi auto with a close-mid RRR =/= Burst fire with a mid- long RRR. This is like people who argue the SMG and PR are redundant.
> > >
> > > Some overlap in effective range is the only thing the carbine and BR have in common, and implying that makes them the same is just ridiculous.
> >
> > The SMG and PR are redundant, the plasma rifle(and repeater and storm rifle) in every game other than CE is a damage inverted SMG, they are both bullet hoses, but I digress. The differences between the BR and Carbine are marginal at best and can easily do the same job. Range isn’t even the primary issue, you can have weapons that overlap in range and even overarching role without ending up as redundant clones.
> >
> > The Focus Rifle is a good example of a weapon that overlaps a lot with the Sniper Rifle in range and purpose, but it isn’t just a purple sniper rifle like the Beam Rifle. The thing only thing that changes going from BR to Carbine is how often you pull the trigger. Of course it doesn’t have to be this way, but nothing of value in terms of gameplay is lost by removing the Carbine as it has been historically implemented. We could radically alter how the Carbine functions, replace it with new more unique weapons, or in cases like ODST remove the BR instead, but as it stands it is a Covenant BR, always has been.
>
> You can’t re-scope against an opponent who is using a carbine and landing their shots. You can re-scope against an enemy using a BR landing their shots, because there’s a time delay between bursts. That alone is a huge difference in the feel of the combat dance when the carbine is involved.
>
> You can keep being wrong and trying to argue, but I’m done with this argument and it’s over simplification of Halo combat.

This is a great explanation, thank you. I also don’t get how people can defend these weapons as being identical. One huge difference to me is how you can kill multiple enemies (like Grunts or unshielded Spartans) in one burst and with a sweeping motion. That cannot be said about weapons like the Magnum and Carbine. The Carbine has less time between shots, something the BR can’t replicate. They both fill different roles and feel different to use.

> 2533274819446242;12:
> > 2614366390849210;11:
> > You can’t re-scope against an opponent who is using a carbine and landing their shots. You can re-scope against an enemy using a BR landing their shots, because there’s a time delay between bursts. That alone is a huge difference in the feel of the combat dance when the carbine is involved.
> >
> > You can keep being wrong and trying to argue, but I’m done with this argument and it’s over simplification of Halo combat.
>
> I’m not oversimplifying anything, I just hold the Halo sandbox to a higher standard. The differences you keep touting just don’t change the Carbine’s role in any meaningful way, with the victor being determined most often by the TTK of any given fight between utility precision weapon rather than any unique characteristics they possess. I’m not trying to pick on the carbine specifically here, I have the same problem with with having both a Utility Magnum and a BR in Halo 5, there is just too much overlap for them to meaningfully coexist.
>
> Ideally I want every weapon in the sandbox to be as different from one another as the Plasma Pistol and Magnum.
>
> > 2533274892901745;9:
> >

That’s bad game design. Some weapon redundancy with niche differences in effective use is a huge part of making a game easy to learn and hard to master. It adds an extra layer of skill. Knowing how to position yourself to utilize your weapons niche can be the difference between two players with pretty similar aiming skills.

You not appreciating weapons differences doesn’t mean they aren’t there, and it doesn’t mean better players than you don’t appreciate them.

> 2614366390849210;16:
> That’s bad game design. Some weapon redundancy with niche differences in effective use is a huge part of making a game easy to learn and hard to master. It adds an extra layer of skill. Knowing how to position yourself to utilize your weapons niche can be the difference between two players with pretty similar aiming skills.
>
> You not appreciating weapons differences doesn’t mean they aren’t there, and it doesn’t mean better players than you don’t appreciate them.

Having every weapon be as unique as possible is “bad game design” for an arena shooter, what a joke. Apparently learning the marginal differences between otherwise identical weapons “adds and extra layer of skill” but having a sandbox that contains truly unique weapons somehow doesn’t and is in fact “bad game design.”

“Knowing how to utilize your weapons niche” isn’t a skill that vanishes with a more diverse sandbox, in fact it only becomes more important. The problem with much of the sandbox is that weapons like the Carbine don’t have a unique niche, they have some a few slightly different characteristics that don’t amount to much.

I recognize that differences between the weapons like the Carbine and BR, they just don’t change the Carbines role. If I wanted to play a shooter where the sandbox was filled with marginally different weapons that otherwise fill the same role I would just go play a modern military shooter, but when it comes to Halo I expect more even if both developers have fallen short pretty often.

That swipe regarding “better players” was cute, but the thing I already know how players who much better than either of us feel about those differences: they don’t care. The highest level player only swap between marginally different weapons like the Carbine when they are A.) Out of ammo or B.) Said weapon is statistically better than whatever they start with. They pick up the Carbine because in Halo 5 because it has a faster TTK and remains just as versatile as the Magnum and even then it doesn’t happen all that often anymore and similar things can be said for other precision weapons in the sandbox. If Carbine levels of differences between similar weapons were enough to encourage players to use them then we would see it even with slower TTK at the highest levels but we don’t.

There have been a fair few unique precision weapons post CE, the H2/H3 Magnums were unique close range oriented precision weapons, if underpowered(see also Halo 5 gunfighter), the ODST Pistol was a unique, the focus rifle was unique, the Halo 4 Light Rifle was unique, Dying light was a unique LR variant, Blood of Suban was a unique Carbine, but the standard Carbine just isn’t on the same level as the weapons I just listed and there have been plenty of other weapons in the same boat as a Carbine.

If we want to keep the Carbine great, just do something with it aside from a few traits that make it little more than flavor text in weapon form.

> 2535462242506256;1:
> I will be pretty brief, the pulse carbine looks great and I am fine if not excited for it, but if it comes at the price of the original carbine then I am a hard pass, the original at one is such a pleasure to use in campaign as it is a nice high damage precision weapon that feels clean and thought out. Your thoughts on whether the old carbine will go, and how if not you would like to see the dynamic between the two

I don’t think the pulse carbine is a replacement to the covenant carbine of old. Just because the word “carbine” is used doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a replacement.

If anything, the Pulse Carbine seems to be the a replacement for the Storm Rifle or similar style weapon in the “assault rifle” class, not precision rifle.

> That swipe regarding “better players” was cute, but the thing I already know how players who much better than either of us feel about those differences: they don’t care. The highest level player only swap between marginally different weapons like the Carbine when they are A.) Out of ammo or B.) Said weapon is statistically better than whatever they start with. They pick up the Carbine because in Halo 5 because it has a faster TTK and remains just as versatile as the Magnum and even then it doesn’t happen all that often anymore and similar things can be said for other precision weapons in the sandbox. If Carbine levels of differences between similar weapons were enough to encourage players to use them then we would see it even with slower TTK at the highest levels but we don’t.

I really agree with this statement. Good players do not care about the small differences that the BR and Carbine have or else you would see the carbine getting much more use in BR starts. They would rather go for weapons that actually affect the outcome of a match. The Carbine needs something that truly sets itself apart from the BR in order for it to be worth picking up off the map similar to how the AR and PR are designed in CE, minor differences like burst fire vs semi auto are not enough in my opinion.

> 2533274819446242;17:
> > 2614366390849210;16:
> > That’s bad game design. Some weapon redundancy with niche differences in effective use is a huge part of making a game easy to learn and hard to master. It adds an extra layer of skill. Knowing how to position yourself to utilize your weapons niche can be the difference between two players with pretty similar aiming skills.
> >
> > You not appreciating weapons differences doesn’t mean they aren’t there, and it doesn’t mean better players than you don’t appreciate them.
>
> There have been a fair few unique precision weapons post CE, the H2/H3 Magnums were unique close range oriented precision weapons, if underpowered(see also Halo 5 gunfighter), the ODST Pistol was a unique, the focus rifle was unique, the Halo 4 Light Rifle was unique, Dying light was a unique LR variant, Blood of Suban was a unique Carbine, but the standard Carbine just isn’t on the same level as the weapons I just listed and there have been plenty of other weapons in the same boat as a Carbine.

None of those weapons are truly unique, in fact several are just the same weapon in different form. The Halo 2 Magnum functions just like the Carbine just with less range and no scope. The ODST Automag is almost identical to the Carbine in function, right down to the firing speed, just doing less damage to shields. The Focus Rifle is just the Sentinel Beam with a scope (and it’s just as bad). The Light Rifle has always been a poor man’s DMR, with the different firing modes not playing any differently.

> 2533274819446242;17:
> > 2614366390849210;16:
> > That’s bad game design. Some weapon redundancy with niche differences in effective use is a huge part of making a game easy to learn and hard to master. It adds an extra layer of skill. Knowing how to position yourself to utilize your weapons niche can be the difference between two players with pretty similar aiming skills.
> >
> > You not appreciating weapons differences doesn’t mean they aren’t there, and it doesn’t mean better players than you don’t appreciate them.
>
> Having every weapon be as unique as possible is “bad game design” for an arena shooter, what a joke. Apparently learning the marginal differences between otherwise identical weapons “adds and extra layer of skill” but having a sandbox that contains truly unique weapons somehow doesn’t and is in fact “bad game design.”

It’s bad design for HALO, especially a Halo campaign. Having weapon variety is fine, but having every weapon be 100% unique with no overlap at all just doesn’t make sense in the context of Halo. Halo isn’t Quake, or Doom, or Marathon, it’s Halo.

The Plasma Rifle is the Covenant’s Assault Rifle, a general purpose weapon to be used against common fodder (Marines/Army Troopers).

The Fuel Rod Gun is the Covenant Rocket Launcher, for dealing with massed infantry and vehicles.

The Plasma Turret is the Covenant Machine Gun Turret, used to lock down positions and keep enemies at bay.

The Beam Rifle is the Covenant Sniper Rifle, used to pick off enemies from long range and forcing said enemies to move cautiously.

Take all of those out of Halo and what do you have? You have very basic enemies and a very limited arsenal.