Hello, all! I would like to voice my concerns regarding the Arena maps. For me, the maps are either circular or asymmetrical in design, as are their spawning patterns and general flow of play. It seems any form of linear or nonvertical maps/gameplay (like Bloodgulch!) have been largely ignored with the advent of Halo 5 (and 4, to some extent). Why is that? (I thought Halo 2’s variety of maps was the perfect balance, as a point of reference).
Because they went with a arena map design. Arena maps are built around a circular design with mirroring sides, the reason is to make a map that gives neither team an edge at spawn. Now 343 has some maps that stick to this to a T but they need more maps they have some variety and force combat into certain areas. having larger maps that tend to be more linear complicates arena combat, which is why you see the larger more linear maps in BTB or warzone (larger number of players).
I dont think the maps are too complex, if anything they are too simple.
Halo 5 maps vertical? I mean some of them are, but maps like Empire are pretty flat and aren’t even remotely comparable to a map like Damnation.
I’m not a map design professional, but I’ve heard a lot of people saying that good competitive maps have a circular flow, and that makes sense to me. Even maps like Narrows have this kind of flow in a way. Maps that are completely linear just lead to awkward dead ends and stalemates, as the only way to cross them is by going forward into enemy fire.
As much as people praise Lockout and Blood Gulch, they’re both perfect examples of this.
True, circular maps are more competitive. But regarding BTB - it feels like the maps aren’t complex, just too cluttered and awkwardly arranged. That’s why I liked Bloodgulch - it was really simple and there was a very direct flow of play
Serious question, what’s wrong with Basin? It’s clearly inspired by Bloodgulch and Valhalla to some degree, yet everyone hates it regardless. Probably just because it’s not an exact clone of either of those two.
Oh, I just found about that. Will try it out lol
OH BASIN - yeah too much rocks and trees. It feels somewhat smaller than original, too, and you can’t see directly across the map like in the old games. That’s a really big problem for me, especially in team snipers
> 2533274819302824;5:
> Serious question, what’s wrong with Basin? It’s clearly inspired by Bloodgulch and Valhalla to some degree, yet everyone hates it regardless. Probably just because it’s not an exact clone of either of those two.
Because it is just a foot path on the left (from Blue side) and a vehicle path on the right. And a choke point in the middle. Theres no flow.
Here’s a reddit discussion that pretty much sums up my qualms regarding the map: https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/3tlfjn/so_i_keep_seeing_that_basin_is_supposed_to_be_a/
I have a BTB map that lve received good feedback on. Varsod 2. The map has what a BTB map should. Lots of vehicle routes that are difficult to predict, no choke points, and cover for all. The thing people clearly dont understand about BTB maps, they should be vehicle dominant maps. The vehicle is supposed to be a powerhouse. Thats the problem with BTB, but arena maps have a cluster problem for sure. Those I wont talk about unless someone asks though, its a mess.
> Because it is just a foot path on the left (from Blue side) and a vehicle path on the right. And a choke point in the middle. Theres no flow.
It’s not even that I disagree entirely with that statement. I just find it ironic because classic blood gulch has even worse flow, yet people praise it constantly.
> Those I wont talk about unless someone asks though, its a mess.
I’ve seen you post a couple times. You come off as knowledgeable about map design, are you an experienced forger? What exactly is your background?
I’d love to hear what you have to say about the arena maps in Halo 5. I’ll take any opportunity to learn something new about map design.
> I have a preview link actually
> Varsod 2
As a quick aside, have you considered covering the map in dark lights? Combined with the skybox it would make it seem like a night time map, instead of a map floating in space that is somehow inexplicably sunny and forested.
> 2533274959783086;11:
> I have a preview link actually
> Varsod 2
Niiiice. But regarding your original post, I agree that some of the arena maps have serious cluster/clutter issues
> 2533274819302824;12:
> > Those I wont talk about unless someone asks though, its a mess.
>
>
> I’ve seen you post a couple times. You come off as knowledgeable about map design, are you an experienced forger? What exactly is your background?
>
> I’d love to hear what you have to say about the arena maps in Halo 5. I’ll take any opportunity to learn something new about map design.
Me? I started forging in halo 3, building absurd things like floating pirate ships and race tracks and… villages. Then off to Reach, where I made nearly 300 maps (on an offline profile that i reached inheritor from forge and campaign alone). Near the end of my Reach reign, I began building some competitive maps (i cringe looking back on them, but they were the start of something). The competitive scene exploded during Halo 4, where I began online matchmaking and spotting minor flaws in the default maps. During Halo 4, I made about 40 competitive maps (ending with 12 or so top notch maps that I wish had been put in the community playlist). Now there is Halo 5, where you can see the culmination of “a thousand lifetimes of planning” (sorry i had to, lots of campaign experience) which can be downloaded off my bookmarks. Lots of experience in forge, tons of self taught talent.
Arena maps. Ugh, ok. Well the easiest problem to fix (and ive done it on 2 default maps) is a really crappy spawn placement. In truth (i fixed it and renamed it True-th, which is just for clarity) the spawn points are literally in the center of the map. Thats a major problem, since players should spawn in a location where the line of sight is not more than an AR. These spawns are terribly placed in most of the maps, and I wont bother fixing some maps because, like Fathom, they just cant be fixed.
Fathom. Second worst map only topped by Orion. These maps have almost no flow, horrid spawn placement, disastrous weapon choice and placement, and are scenic maps at best. I made a rant about Orion within the first month of the game’s release, but I will highlight the important parts.
Holes: why? there is no reason to have holes in the center of the map (the Rig, i hate looking at the damn thing). Holes are aggravating, completely unnecessary, and downright stupid. In orion, the cliff that juts into the lower floor under the DB is idiotic. The only exception to this: Lockout. If the map is intended to be mostly airborne than its fine, as the player expects any deviation from the main path will result in falling.
Weapons: Railguns and Snipers on these maps? no. Small maps are to have 1 CQC power weapon and a power-up, nothing more. Placement has to be in a highly neutral location where the player risks a death to obtain a weapon. The center of the map is usually the best, but symmetry is crucial for weapon placement and balance, so 2 snipers on a BTB map is acceptable.
Map Flow: Needs to be symmetric to some degree. Having one end spawn in a secured plaza while the other is on the street is a stupid idea (plaza) and is in no way balanced on spawn. Generally the map design should be a basic shape, such as square, circular, triangular, or in letters like E, D, C, or T. On top of this the map needs adequate cover between sections, and multiple routes to the other end, so as to prevent choke points or camping.
Of course there are things that can only be taught with time, but those are concepts that need to be learned and that 343 should abide by before making ridiculous maps like Orion and Pegasus. If you have any questions feel free to ask or message, and I hope this has taught you enough about map design to at least recognize flaws.
> 2533274819302824;5:
> Serious question, what’s wrong with Basin? It’s clearly inspired by Bloodgulch and Valhalla to some degree, yet everyone hates it regardless. Probably just because it’s not an exact clone of either of those two.
Big Team Strongholds on Basin is my favourite.
> 2533274819302824;12:
> > I have a preview link actually
> > Varsod 2
>
>
> As a quick aside, have you considered covering the map in dark lights? Combined with the skybox it would make it seem like a night time map, instead of a map floating in space that is somehow inexplicably sunny and forested.
Yeah im still tuning this map (which is odd actually, considering most maps, like Chudea,only take 4-5 hours to complete). This one has taken 8 hours and is still not quite perfect, but its also maxed my physics and lighting budget, so at least there is justification.
> 2533274959783086;14:
> > 2533274819302824;12:
> > > Those I wont talk about unless someone asks though, its a mess.
> >
> >
> > I’ve seen you post a couple times. You come off as knowledgeable about map design, are you an experienced forger? What exactly is your background?
> >
> > I’d love to hear what you have to say about the arena maps in Halo 5. I’ll take any opportunity to learn something new about map design.
>
>
> Me? I started forging in halo 3, building absurd things like floating pirate ships and race tracks and… villages. Then off to Reach, where I made nearly 300 maps (on an offline profile that i reached inheritor from forge and campaign alone). Near the end of my Reach reign, I began building some competitive maps (i cringe looking back on them, but they were the start of something). The competitive scene exploded during Halo 4, where I began online matchmaking and spotting minor flaws in the default maps. During Halo 4, I made about 40 competitive maps (ending with 12 or so top notch maps that I wish had been put in the community playlist). Now there is Halo 5, where you can see the culmination of “a thousand lifetimes of planning” (sorry i had to, lots of campaign experience) which can be downloaded off my bookmarks. Lots of experience in forge, tons of self taught talent.
>
> Arena maps. Ugh, ok. Well the easiest problem to fix (and ive done it on 2 default maps) is a really crappy spawn placement. In truth (i fixed it and renamed it True-th, which is just for clarity) the spawn points are literally in the center of the map. Thats a major problem, since players should spawn in a location where the line of sight is not more than an AR. These spawns are terribly placed in most of the maps, and I wont bother fixing some maps because, like Fathom, they just cant be fixed.
>
> Fathom. Second worst map only topped by Orion. These maps have almost no flow, horrid spawn placement, disastrous weapon choice and placement, and are scenic maps at best. I made a rant about Orion within the first month of the game’s release, but I will highlight the important parts.
>
> Holes: why? there is no reason to have holes in the center of the map (the Rig, i hate looking at the damn thing). Holes are aggravating, completely unnecessary, and downright stupid. In orion, the cliff that juts into the lower floor under the DB is idiotic. The only exception to this: Lockout. If the map is intended to be mostly airborne than its fine, as the player expects any deviation from the main path will result in falling.
>
> Weapons: Railguns and Snipers on these maps? no. Small maps are to have 1 CQC power weapon and a power-up, nothing more. Placement has to be in a highly neutral location where the player risks a death to obtain a weapon. The center of the map is usually the best, but symmetry is crucial for weapon placement and balance, so 2 snipers on a BTB map is acceptable.
>
> Map Flow: Needs to be symmetric to some degree. Having one end spawn in a secured plaza while the other is on the street is a stupid idea (plaza) and is in no way balanced on spawn. Generally the map design should be a basic shape, such as square, circular, triangular, or in letters like E, D, C, or T. On top of this the map needs adequate cover between sections, and multiple routes to the other end, so as to prevent choke points or camping.
>
> Of course there are things that can only be taught with time, but those are concepts that need to be learned and that 343 should abide by before making ridiculous maps like Orion and Pegasus. If you have any questions feel free to ask or message, and I hope this has taught you enough about map design to at least recognize flaws.
My thoughts exactly
> Holes: why? there is no reason to have holes in the center of the map (the Rig, i hate looking at the damn thing). Holes are aggravating, completely unnecessary, and downright stupid. In orion, the cliff that juts into the lower floor under the DB is idiotic. The only exception to this: Lockout. If the map is intended to be mostly airborne than its fine, as the player expects any deviation from the main path will result in falling.
This is the only part I significantly disagree with, as I believe holes can and have been incorporated well into competitive maps. Damnation, Koth_Nucleus (a map that intentionally wraps itself around a central abyss like a donut), some Quake maps either set in space or containing fog of death areas. From a conceptual standpoint it makes sense to me that someone might want to create areas that you can shoot across without moving across, or a potential falling hazard that enemies can capitalize on.
I’m surprised Pegasus made it out of beta. Even to me the problems with that map are obvious. One team has elevation, Rockets, and Sniper on their side. The other has…overshield. Not sure why you have so much disdain for Fathom though.
At any rate I finished my first map a few days ago, and have been waiting for some feedback. If you wanted to take a crack at it, it’s in my bookmarks called “Parole”. A few essential things to keep in mind, it’s designed around 2v2 Slayer with Classic NoSprint, NoAbility settings.
> This one has taken 8 hours and is still not quite perfect, but its also maxed my physics and lighting budget, so at least there is justification.
I wouldn’t really worry about lighting budget. Most maps exceed it from what I’ve heard.
> 2533274959783086;11:
> I have a preview link actually
> Varsod 2
hey man , ur map is really cool
I don’t like Basin as it’s just a hill. The moment you lose the highground, you’re screwed.