Halo 5 has better enemies than the Flood

I’m not talking about the story here. We’re talking strictly gameplay.

The Flood. The enemies that just use human or covenant weapons and literally have one attack behaviour: Zerg Rush. They may come in many different forms but I guarantee you that their design fell VERY short in comparison to the Covenant. As in it fell flat on it’s face.

At least Watchers can bring up hardlight shields and throw grenades back. Knights can even teleport which already makes them more interesting to fight than an enemy who mindlessly charges you and only kills you because it had a shotgun that you couldn’t even see until the last second. At least the Prometheans got their own set of weapons to help differentiate them from other enemies. They had their flaws, but they were a step above the Flood. The Flood never got a unique “weapon” until the annoying porcupine things in Halo 3 that could take 2 whole reloads to kill or just one smack from your fist.

Anytime you fight the Flood you’re either trying to quickly rush through the mission as fast as possible like in Cortana, Floodgate and 343 Guilty Spark, or you’re reduced to a painfully slow pace to fend them off in nearly endless waves like in The Library, The Oracle and the gondola on Sacred Icon. That elevator horde mode in The Oracle has to be some of the most horrid gameplay ever to be in a Halo game. It’s just Flood raining down on you while the elevator slooowwwwwly rotates and moves about 4 inches every 30 seconds until you’ve made a mountain of dead bodies so high that you don’t even need a -Yoink- elevator anymore! (yes I know it goes down, not up). Seriously, find me one encounter with the Flood that doesn’t involve going really fast or going really slow. They’ll always spawn in endless droves because there’s nothing interesting or tactical about fighting them, just keep your finger on the trigger and hope you have enough bullets.

Take notes here with The Oracle. Did you notice anything you would consider to be bad design? I did, let me show you. The first 3 rooms of this mission amount to over 10 minutes of gameplay and are entirely horde mode scenarios that you cannot progress through until you’ve killed enough enemies for the door to open. I don’t care how you slice it or try to justify it, that’s bad design. Just because it’s in a Halo game that doesn’t make it excusable.

I don’t know about you guys but the Flood left me feeling frustrated and bored because there was nothing interesting about fighting them. They just aren’t well designed. They make you camp forever or they make you run past them altogether. They randomly have strong weapons that will cheaply kill you out of nowhere. Most areas that the Flood fight the player in are completely desolate and devoid of any cover or things to interact with. Don’t believe me? Load up any level that has the Flood in it and see for yourself. The best strategy for killing the popcorn Flood is to literally let them kill themselves by attacking you. Wow, what a terrifying enemy.

The idea of a parasite isn’t even so bad, it sounds like it could be a whole lot of fun. But in Halo, it’s not. You wanna know what good design is for this type of enemy? Look at Dead Space. Necromorphs move quickly and need to be shot in the limbs. That requires accuracy and is a pretty cool change of pace from just headshotting everything before. Some of them puke on you, some grab you, others leap through the air at you, some of them will just run away from you until you eventually turn your back on them. They all have distinct visual cues. A high-pitched yelp lets the player know that a suicide bomber is lurking around, screaming packs of kids notify you that you’re about to get swarmed by weaker, melee-only enemies. A constant raptor-like roar means that a Stalker is charging you from it’s hiding spot and will knock you on the ground soon if you don’t do anything.

Look at Gears of War 3 with the Lambent. They all explode when they die. Some of them mutate and start shooting goo at you that hits you even if you’re in cover. Some of them mutate to shoot fire out of their face like a flamethrower. There are various Lambent enemies, from your standard Drudge, to smaller but faster Polyps. Even huge enemies like Gunkers are in the game and they throw huge mortar-like projectiles that can kill you in one hit, they’re pretty much a Wraith in Halo. Hell, sometimes when you kill a Drudge you can find it’s head slithering around on the ground like a snake and it actually tries to kill you!

Other games have done this concept and they’ve done it much better. The Flood is just straight up boring cannon fodder. The Covenant is like a well-done steak that is made to be of high quality. The Flood is like someone throwing an endless stream of greasy french fries at you in a hope to satisfy you.

The Flood are also bad because they have no relationship with the player like the Covenant do. What I mean by that is this: All of the Covenant enemies react to what you do and to the battlefield itself, whether its them jumping out of the way or taunting you. They scream, laugh, freak out and chat with their teammates. Grunts exclaim: “His boots are mine!” when they kill you. Elites proudly state how they are getting a reward from the Prophets for slaying the Demon. Some Jackals drop their Beam Rifles and run when you get into melee range! This doesn’t exist with the Flood. They are just boring space zombies.

One of 343’s many challenges with Halo 5 was to make the Promethean enemies as interesting as the Covenant and to bring back that relationship with the player that was absent with them in Halo 4. That’s why you now see more variety to Promethean enemies and that’s why they talk now. It’s also why the Covenant are back to speaking English in Halo 5. The player-enemy relationship is an extremely important part of Halo that many people gloss over or aren’t really aware of.

The Flood is important to the story of Halo. In gameplay, they are actually a piece that doesn’t fit into the puzzle. Bungie could have done it right but they didn’t. They made the Flood a knockoff cannon fodder enemy with some of the worst campaign missions being born as a result.

I mostly agree with you, it seems like they were a very late addition and nowhere near as thought out as the Covenant. When the flood return (im almost positive the Canon is heading in that direction) 343i has to reinvent them, make them fun and interesting to fight instead of something i want to get over and done with.

> 2533274826317859;2:
> I mostly agree with you, it seems like they were a very late addition and nowhere near as thought out as the Covenant. When the flood return (im almost positive the Canon is heading in that direction) 343i has to reinvent them, make them fun and interesting to fight instead of something i want to get over and done with.

With today’s technology, they could be the most frightening and innovative enemy in Halo history if done right.

The Flood as a concept works in Halo, they’re the entire reason the Halo’s exist. And whilst they weren’t the greatest enemy to fight, they weren’t as boring as you’ve made out; though the Library was (to quote Danny O’Dwyer) “so atrociously long and boring I thought it was a bad joke” That’s level designs fault though.

I’m really hoping the Flood to make a return though, as the all consuming force that even the might of the Forerunners couldn’t stop the, and had to wipe the galaxy clean to stop them. If 343i could get the gameplay right with that, then they could be a great enemy to fight

Fortunately they can change Flood drasticly if they wanted because it’s ability to transform. The could make them like necromorphs from Dead Space if they really wanted. I’m sure when Flood comes back it will be very different from Bungie’s Flood.

I like them they change stuff up, and there was meant to be a much larger array of flood forms that were cut for time reasons

The juggernaut would have been an incredibly powerful beast of a flood
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080707174759/halo/images/thumb/5/51/1215452876_Flood_juggernaut1.jpg/500px-1215452876_Flood_juggernaut1.jpg

The infector form which would spew out flood spores, flying spores and would regenerate by eating dead bodies

then theres the transport form which would transport 6 flood forms into battle and could pick up/throw around a spartan

The flood are quite an unvaried mix, but I always preferred fighting them over other factions because the flood always had interesting settings (with exceptions like the library). I like the atmosphere of flood infested high charity or running through some flood infested forerunner labs. After completing Halo 2 laso I realize the flood are not the most interesting combatants, but quite visually interesting to view. I suppose I like the idea of the chief fighting a parasite more so than the parasite itself.

Teleporting is lame and the worst thing an enemy can do in a video game.

I prefere the flood any day.

The Flood Made A Good Enemy In The Halo Series, And All the Lore There Is About The Flood, They’re The Reason Forerunners Went Olmost Extinct,Without the Flood Most Of The Lore Wont Make Sence And Also The Story Will be Boring Without Them

> 2535419213194022;9:
> The Flood Made A Good Enemy In The Halo Series, And All the Lore There Is About The Flood, They’re The Reason Forerunners Went Olmost Extinct,Without the Flood Most Of The Lore Wont Make Sence And Also The Story Will be Boring Without Them

He’s not talking about the story/lore/universe - only how they act and behave in the gameplay itself. The AI you shoot at.

IMO they’re not too terribly bad unless skulls like Mythic are on and you’re playing on Heroic/Legendary… But it can get a bit old fast after the 300’th Combat Form lunges at you in the same way all his buddies did. That’s the Feral Stage for you - single minded and ruthless. It’s not until they start assimilating some knowledge that their potential comes out, and that’s what I’d like to see. Some interesting dynamics and variety. Use that potential!

Whoever moved this thread into general discussion, can you please move it back? A lot of what I talked about near the end was very relevant to Halo 5 and I put a LOT of work and thought into this just to have it moved into a section that no one bothers to read.

Look at the top page for this forum section, everything below the 4th post down is over 6 hours old from the most recent reply. My thread will suffer the same forgotten fate. Can you please move it back into the Halo 5 section? Parts of my thread are still relevant to that topic.

Please.

> 2533274833600810;1:
> I’m not talking about the story here. We’re talking strictly gameplay.
>
> The Flood. The enemies that just use human or covenant weapons and literally have one attack behaviour: Zerg Rush. They may come in many different forms but I guarantee you that their design fell VERY short in comparison to the Covenant. As in it fell flat on it’s face.
>
> At least Watchers can bring up hardlight shields and throw grenades back. Knights can even teleport which already makes them more interesting to fight than an enemy who mindlessly charges you and only kills you because it had a shotgun that you couldn’t even see until the last second. At least the Prometheans got their own set of weapons to help differentiate them from other enemies. They had their flaws, but they were a step above the Flood. The Flood never got a unique “weapon” until the annoying porcupine things in Halo 3 that could take 2 whole reloads to kill or just one smack from your fist.
>
> Anytime you fight the Flood you’re either trying to quickly rush through the mission as fast as possible like in Cortana, Floodgate and 343 Guilty Spark, or you’re reduced to a painfully slow pace to fend them off in nearly endless waves like in The Library, The Oracle and the gondola on Sacred Icon. That elevator horde mode in The Oracle has to be some of the most horrid gameplay ever to be in a Halo game. It’s just Flood raining down on you while the elevator slooowwwwwly rotates and moves about 4 inches every 30 seconds until you’ve made a mountain of dead bodies so high that you don’t even need a -Yoink- elevator anymore! (yes I know it goes down, not up). Seriously, find me one encounter with the Flood that doesn’t involve going really fast or going really slow. They’ll always spawn in endless droves because there’s nothing interesting or tactical about fighting them, just keep your finger on the trigger and hope you have enough bullets.
>
> I don’t know about you guys but the Flood left me feeling frustrated and bored because there was nothing interesting about fighting them. They just aren’t well designed. They make you camp forever or they make you run past them altogether. They randomly have strong weapons that will cheaply kill you out of nowhere. Most areas that the Flood fight the player in are completely desolate and devoid of any cover or things to interact with. Don’t believe me? Load up any level that has the Flood in it and see for yourself. The best strategy for killing the popcorn Flood is to literally let them kill themselves by attacking you. Wow, what a terrifying enemy.
> The idea of a parasite isn’t even so bad, it sounds like it could be a whole lot of fun. But in Halo, it’s not. You wanna know what good design is for this type of enemy? Look at Dead Space. Necromorphs move quickly and need to be shot in the limbs. That requires accuracy and is a pretty cool change of pace from just headshotting everything before. Some of them puke on you, some grab you, others leap through the air at you, some of them will just run away from you until you eventually turn your back on them. They all have distinct visual cues. A high-pitched yelp lets the player know that a suicide bomber is lurking around, screaming packs of kids notify you that you’re about to get swarmed by weaker, melee-only enemies. A constant raptor-like roar means that a Stalker is charging you from it’s hiding spot and will knock you on the ground soon if you don’t do anything.
>
> Look at Gears of War 3 with the Lambent. They all explode when they die. Some of them mutate and start shooting goo at you that hits you even if you’re in cover. Some of them mutate to shoot fire out of their face like a flamethrower. There are various Lambent enemies, from your standard Drudge, to smaller but faster Polyps. Even huge enemies like Gunkers are in the game and they throw huge mortar-like projectiles that can kill you in one hit, they’re pretty much a Wraith in Halo. Hell, sometimes when you kill a Drudge you can find it’s head slithering around on the ground like a snake and it actually tries to kill you!
>
> Other games have done this concept and they’ve done it much better. The Flood is just straight up boring cannon fodder. The Covenant is like a well-done steak that is made to be of high quality. The Flood is like someone throwing an endless stream of greasy french fries at you in a hope to satisfy you.
>
> The Flood are also bad because they have no relationship with the player like the Covenant do. What I mean by that is this: All of the Covenant enemies react to what you do and to the battlefield itself, whether its them jumping out of the way or taunting you. They scream, laugh, freak out and chat with their teammates. Grunts exclaim: “His boots are mine!” when they kill you. Elites proudly state how they are getting a reward from the Prophets for slaying the Demon. Some Jackals drop their Beam Rifles and run when you get into melee range! This doesn’t exist with the Flood. They are just boring space zombies.
>
> One of 343’s many challenges with Halo 5 was to make the Promethean enemies as interesting as the Covenant and to bring back that relationship with the player that was absent with them in Halo 4. That’s why you now see more variety to Promethean enemies and that’s why they talk now. It’s also why the Covenant are back to speaking English in Halo 5. The player-enemy relationship is an extremely important part of Halo that many people gloss over or aren’t really aware of.
>
> The Flood is important to the story of Halo. In gameplay, they are actually a piece that doesn’t fit into the puzzle. Bungie could have done it right but they didn’t. They made the Flood a knockoff cannon fodder enemy with some of the worst campaign missions being born as a result.

Kinda A Unfair Comparison To Dead Space N Gears Of War Since The Parasites/Infection It’s Like The MAIN Plot Of The Games So they Are Gonna Have More Variations/Combat/Forms Because They’re The Main Thing To Those Games.

The Flood may have been boring to fight, but it was fun to watch AI vs AI battles were the Covenant battled the Flood.

> 2533274978553590;13:
> The Flood may have been boring to fight, but it was fun to watch AI vs AI battles were the Covenant battled the Flood.

> 2535419213194022;12:
> > 2533274833600810;1:
> > I’m not talking about the story here. We’re talking strictly gameplay.
> >
> > The Flood. The enemies that just use human or covenant weapons and literally have one attack behaviour: Zerg Rush. They may come in many different forms but I guarantee you that their design fell VERY short in comparison to the Covenant. As in it fell flat on it’s face.
> >
> > At least Watchers can bring up hardlight shields and throw grenades back. Knights can even teleport which already makes them more interesting to fight than an enemy who mindlessly charges you and only kills you because it had a shotgun that you couldn’t even see until the last second. At least the Prometheans got their own set of weapons to help differentiate them from other enemies. They had their flaws, but they were a step above the Flood. The Flood never got a unique “weapon” until the annoying porcupine things in Halo 3 that could take 2 whole reloads to kill or just one smack from your fist.
> >
> > Anytime you fight the Flood you’re either trying to quickly rush through the mission as fast as possible like in Cortana, Floodgate and 343 Guilty Spark, or you’re reduced to a painfully slow pace to fend them off in nearly endless waves like in The Library, The Oracle and the gondola on Sacred Icon. That elevator horde mode in The Oracle has to be some of the most horrid gameplay ever to be in a Halo game. It’s just Flood raining down on you while the elevator slooowwwwwly rotates and moves about 4 inches every 30 seconds until you’ve made a mountain of dead bodies so high that you don’t even need a -Yoink- elevator anymore! (yes I know it goes down, not up). Seriously, find me one encounter with the Flood that doesn’t involve going really fast or going really slow. They’ll always spawn in endless droves because there’s nothing interesting or tactical about fighting them, just keep your finger on the trigger and hope you have enough bullets.
> >
> > I don’t know about you guys but the Flood left me feeling frustrated and bored because there was nothing interesting about fighting them. They just aren’t well designed. They make you camp forever or they make you run past them altogether. They randomly have strong weapons that will cheaply kill you out of nowhere. Most areas that the Flood fight the player in are completely desolate and devoid of any cover or things to interact with. Don’t believe me? Load up any level that has the Flood in it and see for yourself. The best strategy for killing the popcorn Flood is to literally let them kill themselves by attacking you. Wow, what a terrifying enemy.
> > The idea of a parasite isn’t even so bad, it sounds like it could be a whole lot of fun. But in Halo, it’s not. You wanna know what good design is for this type of enemy? Look at Dead Space. Necromorphs move quickly and need to be shot in the limbs. That requires accuracy and is a pretty cool change of pace from just headshotting everything before. Some of them puke on you, some grab you, others leap through the air at you, some of them will just run away from you until you eventually turn your back on them. They all have distinct visual cues. A high-pitched yelp lets the player know that a suicide bomber is lurking around, screaming packs of kids notify you that you’re about to get swarmed by weaker, melee-only enemies. A constant raptor-like roar means that a Stalker is charging you from it’s hiding spot and will knock you on the ground soon if you don’t do anything.
> >
> > Look at Gears of War 3 with the Lambent. They all explode when they die. Some of them mutate and start shooting goo at you that hits you even if you’re in cover. Some of them mutate to shoot fire out of their face like a flamethrower. There are various Lambent enemies, from your standard Drudge, to smaller but faster Polyps. Even huge enemies like Gunkers are in the game and they throw huge mortar-like projectiles that can kill you in one hit, they’re pretty much a Wraith in Halo. Hell, sometimes when you kill a Drudge you can find it’s head slithering around on the ground like a snake and it actually tries to kill you!
> >
> > Other games have done this concept and they’ve done it much better. The Flood is just straight up boring cannon fodder. The Covenant is like a well-done steak that is made to be of high quality. The Flood is like someone throwing an endless stream of greasy french fries at you in a hope to satisfy you.
> >
> > The Flood are also bad because they have no relationship with the player like the Covenant do. What I mean by that is this: All of the Covenant enemies react to what you do and to the battlefield itself, whether its them jumping out of the way or taunting you. They scream, laugh, freak out and chat with their teammates. Grunts exclaim: “His boots are mine!” when they kill you. Elites proudly state how they are getting a reward from the Prophets for slaying the Demon. Some Jackals drop their Beam Rifles and run when you get into melee range! This doesn’t exist with the Flood. They are just boring space zombies.
> >
> > One of 343’s many challenges with Halo 5 was to make the Promethean enemies as interesting as the Covenant and to bring back that relationship with the player that was absent with them in Halo 4. That’s why you now see more variety to Promethean enemies and that’s why they talk now. It’s also why the Covenant are back to speaking English in Halo 5. The player-enemy relationship is an extremely important part of Halo that many people gloss over or aren’t really aware of.
> >
> > The Flood is important to the story of Halo. In gameplay, they are actually a piece that doesn’t fit into the puzzle. Bungie could have done it right but they didn’t. They made the Flood a knockoff cannon fodder enemy with some of the worst campaign missions being born as a result.
>
>
> Kinda A Unfair Comparison To Dead Space N Gears Of War Since The Parasites/Infection It’s Like The MAIN Plot Of The Games So they Are Gonna Have More Variations/Combat/Forms Because They’re The Main Thing To Those Games.

Please don’t type like that lol

I am thinking there may be a new class of flood. Halo reach full fledge Spartans in infection. H4 changing those people into flood that are not aware of how to use the suit. H2a showed infected capable of using the suit shield. Slowly evolving.

The Halo 3 flood was a huge step in the right direction, adding more flood to the mix… But I can’t see the flood driving the forerunners to extinction. Seriously, what flood form could take out a basic knight??

If/when the flood return, they have to be the flood that thought killing hordes of knights was boring!!

Mostly agree with OP.

I love the fiction, but the Flood missions were generally my least favorite in the series. Halo 3 improved the Flood combat a lot and I’m sure 343i could really do some great things with the new hardware. Dead Space was a terrific example.

For now, I’m pretty happy with the Promethean enemy type. There’s room for improvement sure, but it’s a much more dynamic firefight with Promethean enemies than it was Flood.

I somewhat agree, however I love the environment the flood create and I like how they rush you. However I do agree that they could use some more “unique” enemies and attack patterns, they should be more unpredictable as well, “learning” attack patterns from other races and using them in combat.

With the new squad features and having the campaign built with co-op in mind, some cool features could be given to some flood types like you said. Maybe something that tackles you to the ground and “downs” you until your team helps you up, or an actual tank that requires team fire or flanking around to a weak point, etc. There are a lot of possibilities.

Also, for me the flood had some of the best missions, especially the warthog run missions trying to escape them. I feel they created a sense of urgency in combat, knowing they could overwhelm you. While they may not of had a deep player connection, the basic nature of the flood was enough to give them a “personality” in a way.

Oh boy I best be out of here because veterans are not going to be happy specifically the purists.

The flood was only a pain in the A** for me if they were in huge groups and I was in a small space. cough cough cortanna mission from halo 3 cough cough